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OwlFancier posted:I think it doesn't quite do it until they equalize though they would be overrepresented compared to realism.  60/40 is essentially parity anyway. To me it seems an absurd result.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:50
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I suppose it does mean though that there's going to be a problem where you get maybe one refugee of some pop and then they spread like wildfire through your entire empire if they share your primary habitability because literally nobody else ever fucks. Which is going to be a bit of a weird demographic shift. Though I suppose pops would still grow slower on more settled planets so the change would still be fairly slow?
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Aug 23, 2018 21:50
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I imagine an intuitive pop growth system would resemble the current tile-based implementation where all species grow pops at the same time, and it being a sort of race to see which pops are produced before you hit overcrowding. Immigration/emigration would still have a key impact and would be the deciding factor for whether minority populations grow or not. You could then weight for or against specific populations with policies. The advantage would be that population ratios are dependent on these different growth/decline factors, allowing the growth of minority species and even changes in their ratio to the total population if the growth factors are present, instead of always tending to parity or a fixed percentage. A main issue would be, if your planet has a bunch of species, getting a single pop to grow from any of them would take longer if base growth is divided between all of these species. Another issue is, this would mean syncretic evolution will still not be an enforced 50/50 split, if that is the intention. Loving the changes eitherway! Good luck Wiz, pop growth will probably make an even bigger stink post launch than war exhaustion ever did.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:52
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Wiz posted:Tell you guys what, I'll give species higher priority weight on their homeworld. It makes sense anyway since you get a habitability bonus there. It'll still be a bit wonky in some cases, like if you have a huge ringworld that's got 50 out of a 100 slots filled with human, and then a single blorg comes along and all of a sudden the humans entirely cease growing for the next few decades while the blorgs have a field day. That moment where your first immigrant pops up and everyone else becomes entirely sterile for a few generations is weird as heck. That's not really a fringe case either- that's more or less how it will be every time a single pop immigrates between empires for the first time. But, you know, I don't have a better system in mind to allow dynamic populations, and honestly that's a good goal and the game felt wonky without any cracks for minorities to grow in. I think there's room for worlds where minorities are... just minorities. Like, this is a mostly human habitat, but a couple blorg live here too. That's conceptually fine and sustainable. Considering immigration is possible, I would not be upset if a single alien pop came to a planet and if no more came it just remained a single pop minority. Massive demographic shifts should be the product of massive immigration, not abrupt native infertility. Edit: True multicultural planets should probably be the product of settling a planet with multiple species at more or less the same time. That's what I meant by "naturally" earlier. Eiba fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 21:53
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OwlFancier posted:I suppose it does mean though that there's going to be a problem where you get maybe one refugee of some pop and then they spread like wildfire through your entire empire if they share your primary habitability because literally nobody else ever fucks. Eiba posted:But, you know, I don't have a better system in mind to allow dynamic populations, and honestly that's a good goal and the game felt wonky without any cracks for minorities to grow in. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 21:53
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You could probably address it by capping the maximum weighting. So underrepresented pops only get maybe a 10-15% extra chance to reproduce rather than 100%.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:55
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Aethernet posted:I would happily pay for a Sexy Planets DLC.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:56
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OwlFancier posted:You could probably address it by capping the maximum weighting. So underrepresented pops only get maybe a 10-15% extra chance to reproduce rather than 100%.
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Aug 23, 2018 21:59
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Wiz posted:I think you guys might want to step back a little and see how the system actually works out before you spend twenty pages complaining about issues that might not even be relevant. So if you're still tweaking numbers that's my hyperbolic tummyfeel feedback.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:01
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Splicer posted:Hey Wiz ignore my last post of leading questions here's what I was trying to say: For me it's a question if scale. If I take in 5-10% of my population in refugees and give them freedom of movement and full citizenship because I'm not a monster and 200 years later they make up 20-25% of my empire then hooray, good going guys, I'm glad I helped you get back on your feet. If instead they take 50 years to make up 50% of my empire then I'm going to say I didn't really sign up for that.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:03
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I don't want to be space hitler, I want a fully open egalitarian society, but I also don't want weird population growth mechanics to unintuitively punish me for it. But the game seems to be inadvertently following almost perfectly the right wing racial-nationalists theories on how population growth works. That you need strict immigration controls because once even a small group of "others" come into your country they will purposefully out-breed your group and there will be no stopping them from "taking over" in the long run. I don't want a choice between a white supremacist's delusional demographic fears come to life, or playing as a paranoid xenophobe. So if I'm playing humans, I have earth with 20 human pops, I colonize some new continental planets and eventually get 40 all-human pops spread among my empire. Then I elevate some continental preference pre-space people and they join my empire with 6 pops, giving me 40 human pops and 6 bugbear pops. 100 years from now I should still have more or less the same proportions if everything is equal. Maybe I got 80 humans and 14 bugbears now, that's fine, the proportions are preserved and make sense. But I absolutely should not have 60 humans and 34 bugbears. Why are the bugbears reproducing twice as fast as my humans outside of some policy boosting the bugbears or restricting the humans. All things being equal, the proportions should not change. Now if those bugbears were tropical preference and 1 of my 2 colonized planets was tropical, it makes total sense for the bugbears to move there once their homeworld starts to get crowded, and it makes sense for them to thrive there compared to my humans. It makes sense for those 2 human colonists to grow very slowly and 100 years later the planet only have 4 human pops and 10 bugbears, that's fine and good. Maybe I keep finding more tropical planets rather than continental, so my bugbear minority does end up becoming like 50% of my population, that's fine and makes sense. But if we're both continental, the proportions should stay the same in the long run. We'll of course have to see how it all plays out when the actual thing we're freaking out about at 2/4 dev diaries actually comes out.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:07
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I mean it's probably not a "punishment" as such because obviously all pops can work and species specialization could be something you adapt to or ignore. But it is just... weird. It grates my brain a little bit thinking about it. It really is just that "no loving until the other guys catch up" idea that I think is the problem for those edge cases. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 22:09
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It seems to buy into the minorities are inherently oppressed and breed faster thing, so like true equality is them being half the pop and losing the minority status and in the space future everyone is cool with that so whenever a new species joins all the existing species help redistribute the ratios equally please don't make minority pops more likely to commit crimes in the new crime system 
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Aug 23, 2018 22:15
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How is anyone surprised by this?
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Aug 23, 2018 22:18
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Yeah, and Wiz? More like Grand Wizard
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Aug 23, 2018 22:28
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If the goal is somewhat dynamic populations, what if instead of all growth ceasing until relative parity, it just prioritizes minority growth until they reach 10 or 20 percent of the majority species or something. That's every bit as artificial, but just boosts the newcomer to "sizable minority" before going back to something more organic (selecting the next pop to grow weighted by how many there already are), rather than dragging things to an absolute parity for no reason. That's a suggestion for tweaking something that none of us have ever seen in practice, so heck, it might end up more or less fine. But just knowing that, all else being equal, everything gets pulled towards a perfect balance, no matter how things started out, feels wrong. Like it doesn't matter how many initially immigrated, or how many of the original species settled the planet, it will all be a wash eventually. Let species have equal populations if there was a massive wave of refugees that ended up being taken in. Or if there was a trickle of immigrants when the colony was being founded. But forcing population dynamics in general just feels like it would end up homogenizing things in the end, rather than creating more interesting planets. Assuming equal habitability. Obviously things would tend to be more interesting given mixed habitabilities and different planets.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:29
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It'll be interesting to see how the assembled pops stuff works, particularly in machine empires.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:37
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canepazzo posted:Wiz? More like Grand Wizard New thread title?
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Aug 23, 2018 22:51
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It'd be nice if machine empires at least had an option to build pops to fill jobs optimally.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:51
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One good thing I will say - the domestic servant change appears great. I was always annoyed before by "domestic servant" pops out working in the mines and farms, and even tried working on a system that would gradually disappear them to put a permanent happiness boost on their owner pop. (even knowing this was substantially less than satisfying, because they basically ceased to be directly represented at all) The thing they have now, as pops that provide happiness (I think) while taking up very little housing space and luxuries, is a vastly better implementation.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:52
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People's objections to this stuff feels really weird to me tbh. I've always envisioned a society like the one Wiz is implementing is how Star Trek et al 'actually' work, with the human dominance in the show stemming from the fact that having a bunch of human extras is way easier than busting out the Andorian paint and prosthetics every episode. Also why almost every alien species is just a human with poo poo glued on. Also I want really multicultural planets and it sounds really cool. Also if people want to be ~realistic~ population growth in most of the developed countries of the world is declining except for immigration so the proposed system makes sense on that level.
Zore fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 23:01
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Yes, wanting Xenophile empires to be able to have diverse core worlds is literally white supremacism. You have it absolutely down pat. I guess it's time to unsubscribe from this thread for a while again.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:06
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I think it's kind of pointless to worry about this without any kind of hard numbers, but it sounds to me like this growth bias towards under-represented pops is just meant to be enough of a corrective to offset other factors that might otherwise lead to the "natural" pulls for migration resulting in homogeneous empires even if you're trying to go diverse. eta: oh no
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Aug 23, 2018 23:06
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turn off the TV posted:How is anyone surprised by this? Stellaris 2.2: We must secure the existence of our people and a future for human children. I have yet to find something I dont like about the future patch. Please don't abandon us Wiz. Rincewinds fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 23:10
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It is amazing the people going off on unironic nativist screeds 'those goddamn Lizards better stay on their planets where they belong' and freaking out about immigrants potentially reaching parity are calling Wiz a white supremacist. Tell us more about how you don't want lesser races polluting the Homeland. 
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Aug 23, 2018 23:12
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If y'all are so concerned about very minute population control, machine empires are right there.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:15
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It's not very minute control at all. It's wanting population demographics, when not controlled, to evolve in a manner that seems somewhat plausible.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:16
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Wiz posted:Yes, wanting Xenophile empires to be able to have diverse core worlds is literally white supremacism. You have it absolutely down pat. goons have quarrelsome trait Zore posted:People's objections to this stuff feels really weird to me tbh. I've always envisioned a society like the one Wiz is implementing is how Star Trek et al 'actually' work, with the human dominance in the show stemming from the fact that having a bunch of human extras is way easier than busting out the Andorian paint and prosthetics every episode. Also why almost every alien species is just a human with poo poo glued on. same Rincewinds posted:Stellaris 2.2: We must secure the existence of our people and a future for human children. seriously this. It's what goons apparently desire. Not having aliens ever live on Earth sucked balls hard. The one time I had an alien show up it was some kind of refugee event and it sucked for them because of low habitability.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:18
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obviously space demographics in the year 2200 mean that earth will have one pop of weed aliens, 5 robots, and the rest will be pure humans for all time
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Aug 23, 2018 23:20
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boy this went downhill fast perfect parity doesn't necessarily make total sense but it also sounds like the weights are extremely easy to mod if you would prefer underrepresented species to top out at 25% instead of 50%. neither side of this strikes me as actually racist, just different takes on how totally fictional space demographics would play out
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Aug 23, 2018 23:21
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SniperWoreConverse posted:obviously space demographics in the year 2200 mean that earth will have one pop of weed aliens, 5 robots, and the rest will be pure humans for all time Jazerus posted:it also sounds like the weights are extremely easy to mod if you would prefer underrepresented species to top out at 25% instead of 50%. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 23:22
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Illegal immigrant aliens are taking our jerbs!! BUILD THE WALL But seriously, if you choose to play a xenophilic empire, it stands to reason that your people will want to integrate with others, leading to a restructuring of the population that tends to favor the underrepresented - at least to me. If you don't want those bastards immigrating into your planets, change the government civics you need to. It's not like it's impossible to switch from xenophilic to something less alien-friendly if you feel like your original population is somehow being taken over by others.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:23
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Won't overcrowding mean that people will grow but not migrate there anyways? So you have more homogeneous homeworlds and diverse colonies?
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Aug 23, 2018 23:24
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guess i'm agreeing with wiz's position. In an egalitarian xenophilic society things will naturally balance towards an even distribution. It's space in the future so this is fine and just handwaved without having to be locked down to whatever real life population growth theories. If you want something that's not that then pick some other social values or institute policies that will give a different result, such as residency. IIRC picking xenophobe means that when you grab a new planet with existing aliens your own guys will be prioritized and the aliens will decline over time.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:27
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Wiz posted:Yes, wanting Xenophile empires to be able to have diverse core worlds is literally white supremacism. You have it absolutely down pat.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:31
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Strudel Man posted:If you're disagreeing with me, I wish you'd do so by laying out your own position. Sarcastic sniping gets nobody anywhere. it might take an extra layer of abstraction where you have effect triggers that monitor pop counts per species per colony and adjust weights dynamically if that is how it is implemented, but it's still doable
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Aug 23, 2018 23:31
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SniperWoreConverse posted:guess i'm agreeing with wiz's position. In an egalitarian xenophilic society things will naturally balance towards an even distribution. It's space in the future so this is fine and just handwaved without having to be locked down to whatever real life population growth theories. Furthermore, nothing so far has been specifically xenophilic, just not-xenophobic. You don't need to be a xenophile to give full citizenship to aliens. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 23:31
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it's not that it's egalitarian in policy but egalitarian in results. Utilitarian egalitarianism.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:33
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SniperWoreConverse posted:guess i'm agreeing with wiz's position. In an egalitarian xenophilic society things will naturally balance towards an even distribution. It's space in the future so this is fine and just handwaved without having to be locked down to whatever real life population growth theories. I don't get why "I like Aliens" means "Both my species, and every single alien species in the empire has to be at 50% distribution or I don't really like aliens" I assumed Xenophiles like them as in they have no problem with them, not as in, Hey 100 red aliens that are chugging along, don't you dare reproduce until the green aliens hit 100 as well, repeat every single time any new species migrates or joins the empire through conquest. That seems like it would be horrific rather than tolerant. Also I don't think these mechanics are exclusive to Xenophiles just that they would have more migration treaties. The rest seems like it applies to all empires, or any empire where you gave a minority species full rights.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:34
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Strudel Man posted:I really don't think that makes a great deal of sense. If you have ten red aliens and two green aliens, everyone being treated exactly the same would not result in having twenty of each a century later, since that would be 100% growth of the former and 900% growth of the latter. You do know in real life demographics do have some pretty major changes like that over the course of a century right.
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Aug 23, 2018 23:34
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