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That's a really good question and I don't know that there's a definitive answer because the Lincoln administration obviously didn't even consider a negotiated peace, and his opponent in the 1864 elections didn't either. The simplest answer and the one most alt history tends to go with is the Confederate states all leave except Virginia loses West Virginia and the two countries sign a standard international agreement regarding shipping on the Mississippi just like any countries that share shipping lanes have to do. But who the gently caress knows. The Union controlled the entire Mississippi by 1863, they could have annexed it along with everything to the west of it (oh and Tennessee which they already occupied) and there's nothing the Confederates could do about that so maybe the Confederacy just ends up being just a tiny rump state. Like you said the Confederate constitution guaranteed they'd remain an agricultural backwater banana republic mess, meanwhile the United States' military and industrial superiority would only increase, even if they did let all the states secede they might repudiate any peace treaty, say secession was always illegal, and steamroll the South a few decades later. Of course there's always the absurd alt history from writers who don't know enough about the war and assume Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, DC, etc join a victorious South which is just silly. I certainly don't see the South dictating terms to rejoin the union. The whole reason they left was because for the first time the North had the population to elect a president without winning a single southern state, and that discrepancy was only going to get worse. Lincoln hadn't even done anything or even taken office when half the Confederacy seceded, they were just mad he won and that they no longer controlled everything all the time. All attempts at compromise before the war failed, there was even an amendment to permanently entrench slavery in the constitution, it passed the House and Senate and Lincoln endorsed it but the south seceded anyway rather than trying to ratify it. The terms would have to be absurd like "only Southern states get to vote for the president" or something. Much like the Republican party now they thought it was God's will that the planter aristocracy rule the USA and if they couldn't do that they didn't want a USA anymore.
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Aug 24, 2018 22:46
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In all likelihood a Confederacy that somehow survived and gained independence would have ended up as a Lee-led military dictatorship in all but name, and would not have survived his death (if it lasted even that long). States like Georgia would almost certainly rebel against the central authority in Richmond, as Governor Joe Brown came close to doing anyway in reality, and been stepped on by the military that stayed loyal to the Richmond regime and gently caress this is heading into Turtledove territory.
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Aug 24, 2018 23:14
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Captain_Maclaine posted:In all likelihood a Confederacy that somehow survived and gained independence would have ended up as a Lee-led military dictatorship in all but name, and would not have survived his death (if it lasted even that long). States like Georgia would almost certainly rebel against the central authority in Richmond, as Governor Joe Brown came close to doing anyway in reality, and been stepped on by the military that stayed loyal to the Richmond regime and gently caress this is heading into Turtledove territory. Never go full Turtledove.
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Aug 24, 2018 23:24
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An independent South would have been massively into imperial land grabs, too - fighting with the USA over control of the West, trying to grab more land off of Mexico, filibustering it's way across the Caribbean and into Central America. A big part of slaver ideology was that slave states needed to continually expand the reach of slavery or else they'd be bottled up and wiped out. Lincoln signalling that there'd be no more expansion of slavery into the territories and no more slave states being admitted to the Union was the literal trigger for succession - he didn't threaten to end slavery where it already existed or free any slaves, he just put a limit on the expansion of slavery, and that was enough to kick off the Civil War.
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Aug 24, 2018 23:27
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Yeah, had the CSA won independence it would have been a poor agrarian backwater, possibly with a very very small but incredibly wealthy ruling class (but maybe not, most of the rich dudes were in a lot of debt even before funding their own regiments and stuff). No industry, no banking to speak of, a cash crop that was rapidly losing value and an institution that would have prevented close ties with almost anyone that could help them fix it. Politically they were really unstable from the get go, it's not unreasonable to guess states would have started leaving the CSA within a decade, given how rapidly independent some of them wanted to be.
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Aug 25, 2018 00:14
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Captain_Maclaine posted:In all likelihood a Confederacy that somehow survived and gained independence would have ended up as a Lee-led military dictatorship in all but name, and would not have survived his death (if it lasted even that long). States like Georgia would almost certainly rebel against the central authority in Richmond, as Governor Joe Brown came close to doing anyway in reality, and been stepped on by the military that stayed loyal to the Richmond regime and gently caress this is heading into Turtledove territory. This was one of the many issues that I had that that dumb Confederate HBO show, that on top of everything else wrong with it, there is no way that a modern confederate America could exist to the present day(hot takes about how present day America is the modern confederate America aside).
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Aug 25, 2018 00:22
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:Yeah, had the CSA won independence it would have been a poor agrarian backwater, possibly with a very very small but incredibly wealthy ruling class (but maybe not, most of the rich dudes were in a lot of debt even before funding their own regiments and stuff). No industry, no banking to speak of, a cash crop that was rapidly losing value and an institution that would have prevented close ties with almost anyone that could help them fix it. The South would've switched to grain and tobacco and become the world's tobacco farm. They probably would've expanded west through Texas until they got to New Mexico and the deserts in the southwest. The North would've consolidated their expansion West until they got to California. Then you have the south in a Mexican standoff (hah!) for Southern California with the Union and Mexico. The Confederacy probably screws up relations with Mexico because they've got terrible foreign policy and fights a war or two with Spain and/or Mexico because they decide to push south for Caribbean / Central / South American colonialism This leads to them fighting wars where they're about the same size as Mexico and much smaller than Spain with a much smaller Navy. Couple this with lack of industrialization and infrastructure that the Union can get around by building the transcontinental railroad, and the South gradually gets shuttled into irrelevance in the early 20th century. They probably remain neutral in World War 1. Maybe they join in on WW2 on the Axis powers if they've got a death wish. Or maybe the future refuses to change and the Union crushes them with Sherman tanks when the South tries a gambit with Hitler to take over the Union. Lote fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Aug 25, 2018 00:40
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Fulchrum posted:(hot takes about how present day America is the modern confederate America aside). This was basically the point of that CSA mockumentary...
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Aug 25, 2018 00:53
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Lote posted:The South would've switched to grain and tobacco and become the world's tobacco farm. They probably would've expanded west through Texas until they got to New Mexico and the deserts in the southwest. The North would've consolidated their expansion West until they got to California. Then you have the south in a Mexican standoff (hah!) for Southern California with the Union and Mexico. The Confederacy probably screws up relations with Mexico because they've got terrible foreign policy and fights a war or two with Spain and/or Mexico because they decide to push south for Caribbean / Central / South American colonialism You know California was already a US state, right?
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Aug 25, 2018 01:37
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:You know California was already a US state, right? Yeah but the South would’ve probably tried to start a border war or negotiate access to the pacific. The South had all these wacky pie in the sky plans that somehow involved them colonizing and enslaving the entirety of the Carribean and South America
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Aug 25, 2018 01:41
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There was absolutely no way the south won. Even they knew it. Their goal was to stalemate it long enough that the north gave up. That was literally their strategy. Their agricultural cash crop slave economy also would have imploded because, surprise surprise, the southern elites had a history of bad decisions. Heavy monoculture cotton farming was devastating the soul which made it continually more difficult to get good harvests. Like was said cotton was also spreading. Another part of their strategy was to bully the rest of the world into recognizing and helping them by saying "no cotton for you" if they didn't get their way. The rest of the world just went "lol, nah." Do remember that leading up to the civil war the south hated that free states existed. They were pulling all sorts of shenanigans to try and force the north to be de facto slave states. Slavery wasn't the only reason it all kicked off but not howdy was it the biggest by a long shot.
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Aug 25, 2018 01:58
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Lote posted:Yeah but the South would’ve probably tried to start a border war or negotiate access to the pacific. The South had all these wacky pie in the sky plans that somehow involved them colonizing and enslaving the entirety of the Carribean and South America In this timeline Emperor Norton is remembered, not for the Golden Gate Bridge, but for leading the defense against the Traitor States and driving them back across the Rockies in disarray.
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Aug 25, 2018 02:08
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GreyjoyBastard posted:In this timeline Emperor Norton is remembered, not for the Golden Gate Bridge, but for leading the defense against the Traitor States and driving them back across the Rockies in disarray. Considering the commander of the South’s forces in New Mexico was too drunk to function in the only skirmish the South won in New Mexico, this might have happened. The South lost the West because the North accidentally stumbled upon all of the South’s supplies and wrecked em. Can’t fight a war without logistics.
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Aug 25, 2018 02:12
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gently caress all of you and your stupid civil war derail, I was expecting a harvest. How This Will End: Sooner or later, tyrants are always abandoned by their followers. (Fan fiction) quote:If he were a tyrant I might see his point. Name one individual that Trump has imprisoned. I'll wait. quote:To: 2ndDivisionVet quote:These people professing to be Trump’s friends are strange....even weird...... Prolife. quote:“If he were a tyrant, the Never-Trumpers would be buried in a lime-filled pit.” quote:F#$^!@ IDIOTS!
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Aug 25, 2018 02:45
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quote:If he were a tyrant I might see his point. Name one individual that Trump has imprisoned. I'll wait. Literally some two thousand odd children? 
Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Aug 25, 2018 03:04
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Gotta say, John McCain threads are about the only time I agree with the average Freeper over the average Democrat.
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Aug 25, 2018 04:10
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Mantis42 posted:Gotta say, John McCain threads are about the only time I agree with the average Freeper over the average Democrat. quote:To: libstripper quote:To: libstripper quote:To: DoughtyOne quote:To: 100American quote:To: MagUSNRET quote:To: DoughtyOne quote:To: libstripper quote:To: shelterguy 
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Aug 25, 2018 06:49
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So what happens if McCain dies before the elections?
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Aug 25, 2018 09:13
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It depends on the state, every state has their own protocol for replacing a congressman. In McCain's case the Governor of Arizona will appoint a successor to serve the rest of McCain's term until 2020 when the normal Senate election will happen.
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Aug 25, 2018 09:36
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It also has to be someone from the same party.
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Aug 25, 2018 09:40
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Lest we forget every single one of them voted for him for president less than a decade ago.
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Aug 25, 2018 09:54
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^ They get around this by pointing out he was a loser. They worshipped Palin for some time after though, and some still do. nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:How do South stay separate country thouh? Is not result of South "win" that they dictate terms to rejoin? The land they inhabit and river and route they are blocking by that surely would mean even win of war means new war within short time if Confederate stay seperate. Union needs mississippi river for export and import into the plainslands, Union needs many thing and Confederate system of government is not suit well to cooperation of state in meantime. Basically if they managed to somehow squeak out a win and get what they wanted, they'd either fall apart into multiple regions in a failed state or realize they need to abandon their current confederation because each state being it's own country of sorts within a country can't work. It's something the original 13 colonies figured out "four score and several years" before SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Aug 25, 2018 10:51
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Lote posted:The South would've switched to grain and tobacco and become the world's tobacco farm. They probably would've expanded west through Texas until they got to New Mexico and the deserts in the southwest. The North would've consolidated their expansion West until they got to California. Then you have the south in a Mexican standoff (hah!) for Southern California with the Union and Mexico. The Confederacy probably screws up relations with Mexico because they've got terrible foreign policy and fights a war or two with Spain and/or Mexico because they decide to push south for Caribbean / Central / South American colonialism Just imagine it going the way North and South Korea are with the titles reversed. The North a growing powerhouse in the region while the South would become some trembling agri state trying to constantly stay up on and show off it's power while a few elites run the whole shebang while dressing themselves as living gods among men
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Aug 25, 2018 11:02
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Keeshhound posted:Literally some two thousand odd children? No, personally locked up Also "lol look at them comparing two similar presidents as the current one fumbles with stuff like Nixon had to deal with. What a bunch of morons". Their delusions are getting worse
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Aug 25, 2018 11:08
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SocketWrench posted:^ They get around this by pointing out he was a loser. They worshipped Palin for some time after though, and some still do. That isn't entirely true; the Civil War was basically the point when the nation started having a much stronger federal government. The federal government had actively tried to stay small. Before the Civil War hit states (well, more like state-sponsored banks but still) were printing their own money while the federal government didn't really have much of a hand on currency. During the Civil War the National Banking Acts were passed that effectively eliminated state currency and made US$ the only real American currency. Before that there were literally thousands of different currencies in existence, not even including scrip. That's just one example of the central government taking charge; the original idea was in fact that each state would be effectively a separate nation glued together a big union. Of course as America grew there really, really did need to be a stronger central government.
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Aug 25, 2018 11:23
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"Trump is like having your dad as president"
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Aug 25, 2018 13:02
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quote:To: Trailerpark Badass Freep - Plenty of reasons to hate muslims, this isn’t one
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Aug 25, 2018 15:52
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Plinkey posted:Freep - Plenty of reasons to hate muslims, this isn’t one
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Aug 25, 2018 16:40
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Potato Salad posted:"Trump is like having your dad as president" An abusive alcoholic who went out gay bashing at bars and supported the Confederacy despite being from the far north? I guess he is!
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Aug 25, 2018 18:50
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Shot in the dark based on Confederate culture in the north: center/east Washington/ Oregon, Montana?
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Aug 25, 2018 19:02
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I'd guess Pennsylvania, because it's the most South you can get in the north.
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Aug 25, 2018 19:06
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Rape Stink posted:I'd guess Pennsylvania, because it's the most South you can get in the north. Yeah, Pennsylvania has Philadelphia and Pittsburgh plus their suburbs, the rest of the state is indistinguishable from the deep South except Dunkin Donuts instead of Krispy Cream
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Aug 25, 2018 19:19
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ToxicSlurpee posted:That isn't entirely true; the Civil War was basically the point when the nation started having a much stronger federal government. The federal government had actively tried to stay small. Before the Civil War hit states (well, more like state-sponsored banks but still) were printing their own money while the federal government didn't really have much of a hand on currency. During the Civil War the National Banking Acts were passed that effectively eliminated state currency and made US$ the only real American currency. Before that there were literally thousands of different currencies in existence, not even including scrip. That's just one example of the central government taking charge; the original idea was in fact that each state would be effectively a separate nation glued together a big union. Yes, pre war the states functioned much as their own entity, but they still submitted to federal rules and legislation. Southern states did not have that arrangement when they tried splitting. They wanted a central set of rules, but then that's it. No other state or collection of states would have authority over any of them. So if their "government" called for a tax to fund something, for example, the states under it could either pay or not at their own whim SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Aug 25, 2018 19:56
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Plinkey posted:Freep - Plenty of reasons to hate muslims, this isn’t one Lol, that sig is beautiful irony
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Aug 25, 2018 19:58
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Potato Salad posted:"Trump is like having your dad as president" Look, I like my dad, but I do not want my dad to be President.
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Aug 25, 2018 20:42
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SocketWrench posted:Yes, pre war the states functioned much as their own entity, but they still submitted to federal rules and legislation. To me that's the funniest thing about the Confederacy; they created a tiny set of weak rules and then stamped a big, red OPTIONAL on pretty much all of them except slavery. Each state basically had its own military that could do what the central government said if they agreed while taxes were 100% optional. To the surprise of absolutely nobody basically none of the states paid taxes, every optional laws might as well not have existed, and slavery was the only thing they could agree on. Each state issued its own currency which quickly became absolutely worthless.
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Aug 25, 2018 23:13
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One of the biggest changes in that poo poo was a constitutional provision that most forms of increasing taxes would require 2/3 majorities in Congress to pass. You may be familiar with that provision from a bunch of modern states with their state budget in a shambles from it!
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Aug 25, 2018 23:43
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ToxicSlurpee posted:To me that's the funniest thing about the Confederacy; they created a tiny set of weak rules and then stamped a big, red OPTIONAL on pretty much all of them except slavery. Each state basically had its own military that could do what the central government said if they agreed while taxes were 100% optional. To the surprise of absolutely nobody basically none of the states paid taxes, every optional laws might as well not have existed, and slavery was the only thing they could agree on. Each state issued its own currency which quickly became absolutely worthless. Yeah, they basically had all the big government paranoia of the founding fathers with none of the common sense or practical application.
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Aug 26, 2018 00:53
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:Yeah, they basically had all the big government paranoia of the founding fathers with none of the common sense or practical application. So the big government paranoia of the modern Republican party, then. So anyway, how is Freep reacting to McCain dieing?
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Aug 26, 2018 01:34
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3682191/posts quote:To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
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Aug 26, 2018 01:44
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