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And the argument rests on vague "interesting, dramatic, informative, meaningful" qualities instead of any aesthetic appreciation. Look up the farcical duel between Flay and Swelter in Titus Groan instead.
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Aug 26, 2018 23:44
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Mel Mudkiper posted:No but it being true makes it true My understanding of MM is that he says the form and arrangement of communication technology is more important sociologically than the transmitted information. I agree with this more in principle than in his specifics - he cites a lightbulb as an example of a medium devoid of message, which seems to ignore the most important function of a lightbulb, which is providing light. I can still take MM as a decent approach to media studies. But it is entirely unclear to me how we move from that to the idea that the quality and feel of the prose is the sole relevant measure of a works worth. It seems to me that "the medium is the message" would more apply to the form in which prose is packaged and delivered - say, discrete novels vs the serialisation of Dickens vs bloated fantasy septrilogies. It could just be I'm misunderstanding MM, or that I just have a different understanding of the term "medium". As to the Bakker thread - I never said that his prose is entirely irrelevant ( although I happen to like his tortuously overwrought apocalyptica). Instead I said that I enjoyed Bakker for his themes and characters - both how they embody and grapple his philosophical points - and also on a basic plot level. And this is why I feel a purely prose based analysis of genre fiction is the wrong approach (even BotL is less prose-supremicist in his reviews than he seems to believe we should be). Genre fiction is primarily driven by the plot and the character, and is enjoyed by people for those reasons. Take Agatha Christie - not much of interest on a sentence by sentence level, but holy crap she knew how to spin a mystery. So if we're going to criticise it entirely on the basis of lovely prose we also have to show that it can't/shouldn't be enjoyed on the basis of plot and character. This is a much harder position to defend.
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Aug 26, 2018 23:54
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Strom Cuzewon posted:My understanding of MM is that he says the form and arrangement of communication technology is more important sociologically than the transmitted information. I agree with this more in principle than in his specifics - he cites a lightbulb as an example of a medium devoid of message, which seems to ignore the most important function of a lightbulb, which is providing light. Yeah your understanding of what McLuhan means by medium is pretty off. It has nothing to do with genre or style, for example.
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Aug 27, 2018 00:11
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Khizan posted:Yeah, if you're not a fast reader but read a 500+ page book in under 2 hours, that could be why none of it stuck. it's easy to read most sci fi and fantasy novels in a short time because they're extremely simple
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Aug 27, 2018 00:13
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Look up the farcical duel between Flay and Swelter in Titus Groan instead. I was just thinking of that. I loved that fight scene, because the hate between them had been so well built up for so long, and then it all comes down to flailing around in cobwebs. I've mostly just got fantasy-pap to compare it to, and the difference in impact was astounding.
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Aug 27, 2018 00:25
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Yeah your understanding of what McLuhan means by medium is pretty off. It has nothing to do with genre or style, for example. Then why is he relevant to discussions of genre and style?
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Aug 27, 2018 00:32
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Then why is he relevant to discussions of genre and style? to me it isn't and if you want to take that up with BotL go ahead I am just objecting to the fact you said it wasn't true
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Aug 27, 2018 00:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:to me it isn't and if you want to take that up with BotL go ahead I am just objecting to the fact you said it wasn't true Ahh fair enough. BotL keeps wheeling it out as justification for looking solely at the quality of the prose, which is what I was complaining about.
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Aug 27, 2018 00:44
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Not sure why I would read about a sword fight when I can just pop in my Blu-ray of The Princess Bride any time I want. 
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Aug 27, 2018 01:53
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quote:Having released the netting of his bunk, George Tremont floated himself out. He ran his tongue around his mouth and grimaced.
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Aug 27, 2018 03:35
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Mel mudkiper, noted for his adherence to the doctrine of authorial intent,
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Aug 27, 2018 04:06
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Then why is he relevant to discussions of genre and style? Because prose is the most important part of prose fiction. I'm amazed that you struggle with this concept.
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Aug 27, 2018 09:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Because prose is the most important part of prose fiction. I don't struggle, I disagree, and instead of justifying your position you take the piss.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:02
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I wish people would stop taking the piss by saying silly stuff like that music is the most important part of music.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:08
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But what about narrative, plot, character, theme? These are all parts of novels, and the parts that genre readers are most interested in. Why are they wrong?
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Aug 27, 2018 11:17
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Strom Cuzewon posted:But what about narrative, plot, character, theme? These are all parts of novels, and the parts that genre readers are most interested in. Why are they wrong? Why does it matter what "parts the genre readers are most interested in"? If they were just interested in narrative or characters, they would simply listen to people talk about their lives instead of going out of their way to read text.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Why does it matter what "parts the genre readers are most interested in"? If they were just interested in narrative or characters, they would simply listen to people talk about their lives instead of going out of their way to read text. Because I don't know any wizards, or regency spinsters, or foul-mouthed detectives with nothing to lose and a city with everything to gain. Are you actually arguing that the story is a meaningless part of a book?
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Aug 27, 2018 11:31
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Strom Cuzewon posted:But what about narrative, plot, character, theme? These are all parts of novels, and the parts that genre readers are most interested in. Why are they wrong?
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Aug 27, 2018 11:34
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Because I don't know any wizards, or regency spinsters, or foul-mouthed detectives with nothing to lose and a city with everything to gain. Magicians, unmarried people, and police officers are all reasonably common figures in society. Even I know a card trick or two. What do you mean by "story" specifically? The plot? The narrative? The overall impression of a text?
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Aug 27, 2018 11:35
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Yes, those. And all the other things I said about character and theme.Llamadeus posted:Imo the idea that prose can be a neutral or transparent container for the real "content" is a mistake that genre readers make. Or, worse, that "good" prose is something only decorative. Absolutely! It'd be a very grim book that did that, and a very grim person who read that way. But I'm not arguing for the complete rejection of prose, only that we can't ignore all the actual content of the book.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:48
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yes, those. And all the other things I said about character and theme. Well then you're simply confused because you can't differentiate form and content, and thus will in all likelihood remain idiotically confused until you read, oh I don't know, Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:50
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Strom Cuzewon posted:the actual content
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Aug 27, 2018 11:52
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Pretend I said story.BravestOfTheLamps posted:Well then you're simply confused because you can't differentiate form and content, and thus will in all likelihood remain idiotically confused until you read, oh I don't know, Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan. Yes! I am confused! That's why I'm asking for clarification. Are you able to clarify?
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Aug 27, 2018 11:56
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Strom Cuzewon posted:But what about narrative, plot, character, theme? These are all parts of novels, and the parts that genre readers are most interested in. Why are they wrong? Those things are all and only conveyed through the 'medium' of prose. You can't access a character or a theme or whatever in any way except by reading it.
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Aug 27, 2018 12:17
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A human heart posted:Those things are all and only conveyed through the 'medium' of prose. You can't access a character or a theme or whatever in any way except by reading it. Yes. But they are still things that exist within the novel, so why can't we use them when considering the novel?
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Aug 27, 2018 12:25
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Yes. But they are still things that exist within the novel, so why can't we use them when considering the novel? Who's dismissing them totally? The statement you took issue with was that the prose is the most important feature of a novel, which is true because everything else is conveyed through it. That's why people are talking about McLuhan, because the prose is the 'medium' for the 'message 'of things like plots or characters
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Aug 27, 2018 12:46
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A human heart posted:Who's dismissing them totally? The statement you took issue with was that the prose is the most important feature of a novel, which is true because everything else is conveyed through it. That's why people are talking about McLuhan, because the prose is the 'medium' for the 'message 'of things like plots or characters "The medium is the message" and the bits of McLuhan I've read seem to be very exclusionary of considering the events and characters of the novel. And BotL constantly dismisses these as irrelevant. And if I'm misunderstanding BotL then I really wish he said so like thirty posts ago and saved us all this bother.
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Aug 27, 2018 13:05
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Magicians, unmarried people, and police officers are all reasonably common figures in society. honestly. strom cuzewon, give non-fiction a try BravestOfTheLamps posted:Even I know a card trick or two. *groan* between this and "magnum dope-us", I'm ready to fight to be the one to throw the "ban" switch
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Aug 27, 2018 13:30
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hackbunny posted:*groan* Wait, did I make an unintentional pun there?
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Aug 27, 2018 13:34
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Strom Cuzewon posted:"The medium is the message" and the bits of McLuhan I've read seem to be very exclusionary of considering the events and characters of the novel. And BotL constantly dismisses these as irrelevant. Strom no offense but you are coming off as a dude who is checking wikipedia for info on McLuhan so you can respond. I would probably drop that whole angle before going further because both of you are kind of twisting his ideas to suit your purposes.
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Aug 27, 2018 13:47
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Strom no offense but you are coming off as a dude who is checking wikipedia for info on McLuhan so you can respond. I would probably drop that whole angle before going further because both of you are kind of twisting his ideas to suit your purposes. I'm actually google-fuing articles and pdf extracts because the library is closed, but yeah, point taken. hackbunny posted:honestly. strom cuzewon, give non-fiction a try I've just started Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow, but I might hit some biographies up afterwards. Derren Brown is a cock though, so I'm happy keeping my wizards fictional.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Wait, did I make an unintentional pun there? puns are not the only capital offense, citizen
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Aug 27, 2018 14:26
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hackbunny posted:puns are not the only capital offense, citizen Card tricks are a legitimate form of sorcery, dad
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Aug 27, 2018 14:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Strom no offense but you are coming off as a dude who is checking wikipedia for info on McLuhan so you can respond. I would probably drop that whole angle before going further because both of you are kind of twisting his ideas to suit your purposes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE
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Aug 27, 2018 14:36
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Ha I was thinking of this the whole time
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Aug 27, 2018 14:40
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So I got a month for quoting a sex offender, what do you get for quoting a child molester?
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Aug 27, 2018 14:42
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When Marshall McLuhan talked about the "medium" of writing, he meant, like, printed letters running right to left on a series of pages, reproduced exactly over many copies, not the loving prose and syntax. Everyone here is full of poo poo.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:43
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So I got a month for quoting a sex offender, what do you get for quoting a child molester? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxu7xLp4pnY
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Aug 27, 2018 14:50
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:When Marshall McLuhan talked about the "medium" of writing, he meant, like, printed letters running right to left on a series of pages, reproduced exactly over many copies, not the loving prose and syntax. Everyone here is full of poo poo. Hey gently caress you I was pointing that out too
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Aug 27, 2018 14:54
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:When Marshall McLuhan talked about the "medium" of writing, he meant, like, printed letters running right to left on a series of pages, reproduced exactly over many copies, not the loving prose and syntax. Everyone here is full of poo poo. Like I said in the Bakker thread, the sentiment is still applicable to study of art as opposed to just media, because it encourages study of formal qualities rather than of content. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 14:56
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