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P.d0t posted:Like, we never know what the gently caress the game wants us to do. The problem is with the players or the DM, not the module. you are trying to play it like a dungeon crawl it looks like, and the tavern and the rumors has loads of plot hooks. also your brain seems to be mushing together vallaki and barovia.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:18
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D&D seems to occupy this weird space between “crawl dungeons and stab things” and “dramatic mystery-solving talky talk” and it really only officially supports the former.
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Aug 27, 2018 13:12
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It's a strange criticism.
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Aug 27, 2018 13:56
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Proud Rat Mom posted:The problem is with the players or the DM, not the module. you are trying to play it like a dungeon crawl it looks like, and the tavern and the rumors has loads of plot hooks. also your brain seems to be mushing together vallaki and barovia. It sounds like they are trying to solve the adventure with the tool kit the game provides them and not 'hope people know how to play this game right'. Thats absolutely a fault of the module to not utilize the toolset the game system gives players.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:22
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Pollyanna posted:D&D seems to occupy this weird space between “crawl dungeons and stab things” and “dramatic mystery-solving talky talk” and it really only officially supports the former. the skill system while being shallow, works in town/non combat parts of the game fine.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:24
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kingcom posted:It sounds like they are trying to solve the adventure with the tool kit the game provides them and not 'hope people know how to play this game right'. Thats absolutely a fault of the module to not utilize the toolset the game system gives players. what the hell does this even mean lol. the game provides more than the ability to walk into rooms.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:27
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Proud Rat Mom posted:the skill system while being shallow, works in town/non combat parts of the game fine. I mean, does it? Sounds like their group is having some problems trying to get it working right in CoS. Proud Rat Mom posted:what the hell does this even mean lol. the game provides more than the ability to walk into rooms. So with a game thats about investigation, theres lots of tools for the players to get or even invent clues into the narrative. These are game mechanics that many systems have and often are critical for playing those slow and tense noir games. They encourage behaviour and tones, as well as helping to provide bridges in situations where either a description isn't giving away what should happen next or the players are just not clicking with whats going on for whatever reason. These kinds of mechanics are pretty handy in re-railing an adventure or helping to move over sections where the players failed to get information or clarity they need. Pdot has said they've been following the plot but keep running into brick walls, this is the exact kind of experience you tend to run into when you don't really have a tool to give player agency to let them leap to the next conclusion that helps the plot and adventure maintain momentum. EDIT: Like Curse of Stradh is supposed to be a sandbox kind of adventure except the big danger of a sandbox adventure in D&D is that if the players catch on the wrong hook and it leads to information or knowledge that isn't clearly helpful or relevant to what they are trying to do, the players can get lost in it pretty quickly. The great irony of a good sandbox is that your players get solid milestones out of every choice to make them feel like they always made the 'correct' choice to explore this option even if the end result is not the most positive of outcome. kingcom fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 14:27
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I'm in full agreement that DnD does jack and poo poo to help players with anything not combat. This is not the problem with CoS. CoS provides a huge list of disjointed plot hooks and microdungeons. The goal is ultimatetly to survive, find the right equipment to fight Strahd, and then fight Strahd. The DM is explicitly supposed to assemble those pieces into a coherent narrative because there is no preferred linear format to the scenarios. Running Strahd out of the box is silly, it requires significant amounts of between session prep. Less than a home game but enough to know how you're going to actually use the module.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:38
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kingcom posted:I mean, does it? Sounds like their group is having some problems trying to get it working right in CoS. Curse of Strahd is not about investigation? if the DM ran it correctly its provides pretty clear directions what needs to be done during the module.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:40
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kingcom posted:
Most of the side content can either level you up, help you find allies or items, or can provide information on whats going on. that's even without a card making you go there.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:44
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Proud Rat Mom posted:Curse of Strahd is not about investigation? if the DM ran it correctly its provides pretty clear directions what needs to be done during the module. I'm providing an example of mechanics my friend. But even in this circumstance its pretty helpful. As a basic thing to take from those investigation style a player have a resource that lets them go 'Irina knows about Stradh and where hes located' . Thats something the player has invented but lets everyone push the story forward a bit because of that 'clue' they've discovered. Mendrian posted:CoS provides a huge list of disjointed plot hooks and microdungeons. The goal is ultimatetly to survive, find the right equipment to fight Strahd, and then fight Strahd. The DM is explicitly supposed to assemble those pieces into a coherent narrative because there is no preferred linear format to the scenarios. Right so the issue is more likely that you've got someone running this who thinks its a module but really its a campaign toolkit that requires the GM to assemble into the adventure you're going to end up running? Which means the players are mostly hoping its put together and organised in a way that makes sense to them too? Proud Rat Mom posted:Most of the side content can either level you up, help you find allies or items, or can provide information on whats going on. that's even without a card making you go there. It seems like P.D0t has run into situations where they've pursued someone or something and gotten nothing of use out of it though.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:44
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Mendrian posted:I'm in full agreement that DnD does jack and poo poo to help players with anything not combat. And that is the great thing about it because you as the GM can tailor things to your party way more than in the railroady modules that I’ve experienced. The book gives you people and places in each town and it’s up to you and your party what happens. You can include their histories, emphasize or deemphasize whatever bits you want. But it is tough to run. There are no scripted encounters with the Strahd himself. That can be tough to run. But it can be really rewarding.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:47
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kingcom posted:I'm providing an example of mechanics my friend. But even in this circumstance its pretty helpful. As a basic thing to take from those investigation style a player have a resource that lets them go 'Irina knows about Stradh and where hes located' . Thats something the player has invented but lets everyone push the story forward a bit because of that 'clue' they've discovered. Ireena does know this stuff? And those situations you do get information out of it, so either his group doesn't give a poo poo and is playing the wrong module or the DM is screwing up and not giving them the leads they need.
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Aug 27, 2018 14:54
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I am enjoying running CoS but it has definitely been a challenge to adapt to. As written it is both open-ended and non-linear but also pretty sloppy about signposting what encounters' directions are "important" (and of an appropriate level). To fix that issue, the DM has to be active (and reactive) about guiding the players. Watch carefully what they are seizing onto, and if they're wrong, either change the story so they're right or send them an encounter/NPC to shove them in the right direction.
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Aug 27, 2018 17:18
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CoS is a huge compendium of characters, events, and points of interest that leaves up to the DM to tie into a narrative as the players progress through the world following their instincts. It only makes two assumptions: that the player characters are trapped in Barovia, and that they want to defeat Strahd. The corollary to these assumptions is naturally that their goal should be to explore the land of Barovia to obtains information, allies, artifacts, and the power to ultimately confront and defeat Strahd. Given how the module as written sets both of these up (there is no escape from Barovia, and Strahd considers new arrivals to be his playthings), the campaign failing to take on this direction can only be an abject failure on the part of either the players or the DM. Since exploration is in itself gaining knowledge and power, the only problems the DM can run into is either personally failing to make points of interest be, well, interesting, and the players getting fixated on the card readings thus feeling frustrated when they fail to discern the locations they should to go to for the big artifacts. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 18:59
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Like did the party miss the pool and the Fortune Reading. The stuff that gives them hints about were to get helpful stuff.Imagined posted:Well I have a good friend in the party for whom this is their first experience in roleplaying games of any kind. I had just earlier this evening given him the speech about "Remember you can try to do anything in this game." (pretty soon after he'd had his lawful good character convince everyone to go straight to the "Let's murder all the chained up wolves" plan.) Guess whose idea it was to shimmy up the shaft? Must admit it didn't occur to me to tell him it was impossible, since even the adventure text says that it is. Guess I didn't remember I could do anything. It's not impossible. It's Klarg the Bugbear's escape route and he is probably bigger then anyone in the party.
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Aug 27, 2018 20:02
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That sounds similar to ToA, where the player's sole goal is to destroy the Soulmonger, and that's everything the players get. The book is laid out almost as a list. It's really on the players to probe for information and follow leads, but it's especially on the DM to present those leads and arrange events in a way that is interesting and logical. The book has recommendations, but no solid plot line to follow. It isn't that difficult to make one, as some hooks clearly flow into others. I rather like this approach to the campaign books, actually.
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Aug 27, 2018 20:03
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I'm new to D&D and have been playing with a group of friends once per week for a few months now. Due to certain circumstances, we've had to progress from meeting in person to using roll20.net. I really like this, and want to try playing with a group on there other than my normal group, as I really like the game and want to play it more than once a week. Have any of you had any luck with finding any decent games on there?
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Aug 27, 2018 21:01
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GoGoGadget posted:I'm new to D&D and have been playing with a group of friends once per week for a few months now. Due to certain circumstances, we've had to progress from meeting in person to using roll20.net. I really like this, and want to try playing with a group on there other than my normal group, as I really like the game and want to play it more than once a week. Have any of you had any luck with finding any decent games on there? Maybe I'm biased but I'd consider looking for folks here on SA before turning to roll20.
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Aug 27, 2018 21:07
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MonsterEnvy posted:It's not impossible. It's Klarg the Bugbear's escape route and he is probably bigger then anyone in the party. That's how I read the book too. In this case I wanted it to be possible anyway (and to hell with the book if it says otherwise) to make my new player feel like he'd been clever and found an exploit, and allowed us to try out 5E's Group Check rules with the climbing and the stealth. They did well. Imagined fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 21:43
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Imagined posted:That's how I read the book too. In this case I wanted it to be possible anyway (and to hell with the book if it says otherwise) to make my new player feel like he'd been clever and found an exploit, and allowed us to try out 5E's Group Check rules with the climbing and the stealth. They did well. The books says you can. It just takes a strength check to climb up. Some other DM decided to say it was impossible despite that not making much sense.
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Aug 27, 2018 23:34
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Maybe I haven't been clear. I know. Two strength checks each actually, or at least that's how I did it. Because it's a 30 foot shaft and they move up it at half speed. I had them do a Stealth check vs the Wolf's passive perception if they wanted Surprise on Klarg. Imagined fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 23:54
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MonsterEnvy posted:Like did the party miss the pool and the Fortune Reading. The stuff that gives them hints about were to get helpful stuff. I mean, is it possible to ignore that or skip past it and what are the consequences for not having any of that info? GoGoGadget posted:I'm new to D&D and have been playing with a group of friends once per week for a few months now. Due to certain circumstances, we've had to progress from meeting in person to using roll20.net. I really like this, and want to try playing with a group on there other than my normal group, as I really like the game and want to play it more than once a week. Have any of you had any luck with finding any decent games on there? Depends on where you are, if you're in the US and are looking specifically for a 5e game its probably not the worst but you need to ultimately look at it like a job search. You're hunting down a group and players and constantly submitting resumes to these games to find something and even get accepted. Then once you do you actually need to figure out if you're clicking with the group, the game style, the tone etc. It'll take a while and a number of false starts but its certainly possible, you just need to be willing to cut and leave a game often until you find one that matches with you along with just shotgunning out applications.
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Aug 28, 2018 01:14
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kingcom posted:Depends on where you are, if you're in the US and are looking specifically for a 5e game its probably not the worst but you need to ultimately look at it like a job search. You're hunting down a group and players and constantly submitting resumes to these games to find something and even get accepted. Then once you do you actually need to figure out if you're clicking with the group, the game style, the tone etc. It'll take a while and a number of false starts but its certainly possible, you just need to be willing to cut and leave a game often until you find one that matches with you along with just shotgunning out applications. This. Also make note of cool people you find, especially good DMs. Sometimes things don't work out, but you can use these contacts to fill out groups later.
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Aug 28, 2018 01:47
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Proud Rat Mom posted:Ireena does know this stuff? And those situations you do get information out of it, so either his group doesn't give a poo poo and is playing the wrong module or the DM is screwing up and not giving them the leads they need. For context, we're playing with a DM who has run this entire module before (and has all the maps and whatnot setup in Roll20, which he shows us all on a smartTV -- it is actually a live, homegame where we play around the table.) All Ireena ever told us was like "I have super amnesia and I don't know anything," but we needed to get her to a valley (not even entirely sure which one) and then maybe A Thing would happen. We somehow got her to Vallaki (which maybe was a sequence break, or something) after which she disappeared, which may partly be because we didn't know/care wtf to do with her. MonsterEnvy posted:Like did the party miss the pool and the Fortune Reading. The stuff that gives them hints about were to get helpful stuff. We did do the fortune-telling bit with the cards, but honestly none of us had any clue what any of that poo poo meant. We thought maybe A Thing would be at a waterfall that found, but that was a huge nothing. Also, a treasure in a lake? First lake was nothing, 2nd lake turned into Fishermanguyman side-derail which appears to be nothing. We're JUST getting to the point where we're approaching a ruined non-church that might be a thing, so maybe that will pan out? But if the pattern keeps up, I'm expecting it to be yet more nothing. P.d0t fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 03:30
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P.d0t posted:For context, we're playing with a DM who has run this entire module before (and has all the maps and whatnot setup in Roll20, which he shows us all on a smartTV -- it is actually a live, homegame where we play around the table.) I don’t know if you think you’re being clever being vague or you’re not paying attention in game but if it’s the latter that could be why you’re not connecting to the game. And I mean, it’s a fortune, you’re highly unlikely to understand it immediately, the goal is to figure out the clues just as much as it is to find the treasures. Edit: I don’t know if I believe you that your GM has run CoS before. The book requires the GM to script what would happen if you get Ireena to Vallaki which if your GM had done their prep let alone done this module before they’d have an idea what to do with you and her when you arrived. Epi Lepi fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 03:43
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Lol at what happened in the second lake. I had a start and stopped CoS game too, and it was mostly enjoyable, but I agree that it's a challenge to pull off for an inexperienced DM, and/or one that doesn't like having a lot of pressure to perform. Although I feel like character motivation should be easily pointed towards escape, but sometimes players don't make "obvious" choices.
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Aug 28, 2018 03:49
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I think the fortunes are great and totally allow the DM to communicate some clear-ish objectives to the players, based on the realities of the game they intend to run, though. That's a missed opportunity.
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Aug 28, 2018 03:52
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I'll put it to you this way. We have 6 players and we all basically discuss each clue, take a guess as to what it means, then pick the most popular course of action. I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume this is the standard M.O. of basically any/every playgroup. The fact that no one is sure what we're supposed to do, and that every time we think we're onto something, we get nowhere with it (i.e. the module gives us little or no feedback, or comes off feeling like we barked up the wrong tree) is, at the very least, not a failing of just me.
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Aug 28, 2018 03:53
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P.d0t posted:I'll put it to you this way. We have 6 players and we all basically discuss each clue, take a guess as to what it means, then pick the most popular course of action. It’s a failing of your GM.
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Aug 28, 2018 04:27
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It's almost like a good GM would fix it, as if this were 5th Edition, or something.
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Aug 28, 2018 04:50
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It’s not “a good GM would fix it” it’s “a good GM would read the book, understand that it’s open as gently caress, and do the prep work required.” Like someone said, CoS is as much a campaign setting as it is an adventure, frankly more. It’s not a linear adventure path. It’s a book of people and places with some general goals and villains laid out so the GM can make a campaign set in Barovia where the party has to defeat Strahd to escape. You can’t just open the book to Vallaki and go. You have to do work like, decide what the Baron will say to the party if they ask him to give Ireena a home, decide where and how the party will meet Rictavio, decide what Ireena even wants from life after she leaves with the party. It just doesn’t sound like your GM is doing the work. It’s fine if they don’t want to do that kind of work, you can have fun with a linear adventure path. CoS isn’t designed to be played like that and it sucks that that’s how you’re experiencing it.
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Aug 28, 2018 05:07
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P.d0t posted:It's almost like a good GM would fix it, as if this were 5th Edition, or something. No this is a case of you having a legitimately bad DM. I'm not shy of criticizing 5e or its modules, but CoS provides you good and easy to use pieces. The DM is just loving clueless here - like, Ireena has no reason to even bring up her amnesia because that's not really important to the situation at hand when you run into her. It's simply a backstory detail tied to an event that's highly likely to occur if you take her to Vallaki, and that you're probably going to resolve without even realizing the connection. So the fact that it came up at all here is just functioning as a red herring for a group that's already having trouble finding their footing.
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Aug 28, 2018 05:07
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Epi Lepi posted:You can’t just open the book to Vallaki and go. The way I remember it, we got our fortune told, and then headed in the general direction of where we thought the pool would be (i.e. we kept heading as westerly as possible, on the hex-map) and eventually ended up in Vallaki, pretty much unintentionally. We took a lead that we were given and rolled with it, so if that broke the adventure then uh, I'm not blaming the DM for that.
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Aug 28, 2018 06:54
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P.d0t posted:For context, we're playing with a DM who has run this entire module before (and has all the maps and whatnot setup in Roll20, which he shows us all on a smartTV -- it is actually a live, homegame where we play around the table.) Your dm is bad
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Aug 28, 2018 07:37
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So what I'm hearing is... take more notes from Goemon 64 and your campaigns will sort themselves out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0tNFSO_3dQ Too garish for the party to overlook it, nice and direct hints, good rates. 10/10 would PLASMA again.
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Aug 28, 2018 07:55
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P.d0t posted:The way I remember it, we got our fortune told, and then headed in the general direction of where we thought the pool would be (i.e. we kept heading as westerly as possible, on the hex-map) and eventually ended up in Vallaki, pretty much unintentionally. That should not have broken the Adventure.
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Aug 28, 2018 09:06
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I recognize all the Curse of Strahd poo poo he is saying. If the DM didn't make you care about Ireena you should probably re-assess. She is most of the adventure. The treasures are found throughout the whole game, not the first loving lake you went to. I specifically know the place you are talking of, and it took my group around 6-8 sessions to make it there. To say none of your players knew what the fortunes meant, when they aren't cryptic ("a great ally who is a wolf will help you", "a sword of vengeance is found in the lake") in addition to nobody caring about Ireena might just mean none of the players are engaged. It's a sandbox essentially, and yeah, you have to give a poo poo to play. The fun of the group is up to the players, too. Find ways to get engaged. Find ways to make your character care. Meta that you are all here to play a game this evening, and not giving a poo poo about the clues is stupid as hell. Firstborn fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 12:31
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P.d0t posted:The way I remember it, we got our fortune told, and then headed in the general direction of where we thought the pool would be (i.e. we kept heading as westerly as possible, on the hex-map) and eventually ended up in Vallaki, pretty much unintentionally. You didn’t break the adventure. You followed the road correctly. That you think you broke it means your GM hosed up. You’re still on the right path frankly you just haven’t gotten there yet.
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Aug 28, 2018 13:37
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The only way to "break" the adventure is finding the sunsword with madam eva. And it's hilarious.
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Aug 28, 2018 15:52
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