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Star Wars being some kind of Bourbonaist fantasy about the Force-Wielding Master Race falls apart under any kind of scrutiny. Like, who are the two actual force-wielding aristocrats in the Prequels? Sideous and Dooku. e: it's not like I haven't made the slam myself, being a Trekkie, but it depends on a paper-thin reading of the movies. Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Aug 28, 2018 |
# ? Aug 28, 2018 03:18 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 14:13 |
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s.i.r.e. posted:I completely forgot that Yoda was analogous to Rey by being the main character in OT and the films are about his story. Yoda is the protagonist of Episode 2. The protagonists of Episodes 7 and 8 are FN and Poe, respectively.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 03:32 |
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Brother Entropy posted:what does any of that have to do with the claim that rey proves that anyone can be a wizard even if your parents were muggles The nutrilogy is particularly meta textual about canon between the old and the new. While force users are still a generic lottery, the movie is making a statement about the franchise as a whole. It's why the movie ends with a kid using the force to sweep up poo poo.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 04:00 |
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bushisms.txt posted:The nutrilogy is particularly meta textual about canon between the old and the new. No it’s not.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 04:01 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No it’s not. Yes it is.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 04:12 |
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Zoran posted:To me, this seems like one of those wild misunderstandings that nevertheless penetrated popular culture. Yes, Luke and Leia do turn out to inherit Anakin Skywalker's strength in the Force. In a typical fantasy, this would mean they have a divine right to rule, and the usurper king must be dethroned because he's illegitimate. Instead, Leia becomes a revolutionary—although she starts as an upper-class liberal snob—who opposes the Empire because it's fascist. Luke throws away all his worldly power, refuses to become what his father is, and in so doing inspires Vader to destroy evil. The father dies to redeem the galaxy because the son was willing to do it first. Leia is a revolutionary because she's an artiscorat. She wants to restore power to the Senate.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 07:53 |
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Leia is a revolutionary because she's an artiscorat. She wants to restore power to the Senate. That’s obviously what she is in A New Hope. By the time of Return of the Jedi, my read is that she is radicalized. Jabba is her mirror image, since he's really nothing more than another aristocrat on a different world. She is enslaved by this figure, and then she kills him with his own tool of oppression. For the rest of the film, she has no special role in the rebel hierarchy anymore. She doesn’t lead the final battle. She has subsumed herself fully into the cause, and now she is just another foot soldier wearing the same guerrilla outfit as everyone else. Eventually she encounters another oppressed race of people, makes common cause with them, and battles alongside them for their liberation and her own. The sequels say that Leia ends up as one of the last people still carrying on the fight against fascists, and that actually rings true to me. The part in the old and new EU where she's a high-ranking, vaguely liberal politician does not.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 08:07 |
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The only way to understand Leia's character is to fully realize and accept just how deeply Hillary she is
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 08:11 |
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No Mods No Masters posted:The only way to understand Leia's character is to fully realize and accept just how deeply Hillary she is No, but she is exactly what Hillary imagines herself to be, until the Disney era where she is now actually Hillary for some reason. There's a pre-trump-election 2016 Star Wars book where Leia's the reluctant but wise candidate for galactic president, adored by all the good guys and only opposed by the Nazi sympathizer party. Then her ambitions are destroyed by a deeply unfair character-assassinating scandal. lmao
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 08:22 |
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Zoran posted:That’s obviously what she is in A New Hope. By the time of Return of the Jedi, my read is that she is radicalized. Jabba is her mirror image, since he's really nothing more than another aristocrat on a different world. She is enslaved by this figure, and then she kills him with his own tool of oppression. You're doing the same mistake as many fans in that you really want Star Wars to be a leftist parable but trip up on the basics. Like the Rebels aren't leftists. Their goal is to restore a golden age of nobles and knights destroyed by the Empire ("a more civilized age"). They're not trying overthrow capitalism or whatever. They're romantic conservatives, as opposed to Empire's quasi-fascist modernity. Misreading the original trilogy as a progressive story is what leads to stuff like the Sequel Trilogy, which tries to affect progressive politics while at the same time avoiding any politics. The government is destroyed and nobody cares. Arms dealers are evil, but that's just a bad impression of a political stance.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 08:31 |
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It's specifically Obi-Wan who wants a return to “a more civilized age.” And yes, Leia wants to restore power to the Senate, of which she is a member. Luke has a non-specific dislike for the Empire that comes across as basically a vague libertarianism. Han doesn’t much mind the Empire as long as it doesn’t mess up his smuggling career. The rebels we see in A New Hope are basically all Leia's people, who do want a restoration of the old nobility. My point is that these things change. We don’t ever get a clear picture of the entire Rebellion's ideology, so we can only rely on what we see in the main characters as proxies. Luke ultimately rejects Obi-Wan's goals. Leia gives up the trappings of aristocracy. Han throws away his livelihood for the cause, even when given multiple chances to run away and start up his independent business again. Nobody really gets into this Rebellion for completely selfless reasons, and yet they grow into much better people because of it. And the Rebellion, for its part, becomes a multi-racial coalition that actually does liberate oppressed peoples.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 08:57 |
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Zoran posted:My point is that these things change. We don’t ever get a clear picture of the entire Rebellion's ideology, so we can only rely on what we see in the main characters as proxies. Luke ultimately rejects Obi-Wan's goals. Leia gives up the trappings of aristocracy. Han throws away his livelihood for the cause, even when given multiple chances to run away and start up his independent business again. Again, you trip up on the basics. The characters never stop trying to restore "a more civilized age". The fact that they dress differently doesn't mean a thing if they're still doing the same thing as before. Zoran posted:Nobody really gets into this Rebellion for completely selfless reasons, and yet they grow into much better people because of it. And the Rebellion, for its part, becomes a multi-racial coalition that actually does liberate oppressed peoples. Teddy bears are not an oppressed people.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 09:01 |
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Wheat Loaf posted:I elaborated on it in the other thread. lol
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 09:03 |
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Zoran posted:Luke has a non-specific dislike for the Empire that comes across as basically a vague libertarianism. There's that ANH deleted scene where Biggs and Luke chat about how the Empire is becoming more and more oppressive, demonstrated by the fact that they've started to nationalise companies in the Core regions. If the Separatists had won the Clone Wars, the OT would have been about Luke's rise to middle-management in the Trade Federation, realising his career is going nowhere and recruiting Han, Leia, Lando and the rest to start his own rival company. The climactic scene of ESB would have been Skywalker LLC's flotation on the Coruscant Stock Exchange and then ROTJ would be boardroom politics to fend off a leveraged buyout by Palpatine facilitated by Darth Vader's private equity fund. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Aug 28, 2018 |
# ? Aug 28, 2018 09:06 |
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The politics in the OT are vague enough that all we really know is that the Empire is totalitarian and evil while the Rebels like "freedom" and want to bring back a system that at least called itself democratic. The PT goes more in-depth explicitly showing that at least the "good" noble titles to be fancy names for elected positions like Padme being a Queen who had to get elected and then leave after her term was up. The Separatists are explicitly shown to be made of anti-democratic elements whose raison d'être is to get rid of governments power over big business. While the proto-rebellion is made of Senators disillusioned with the undemocratic turn the Republic itself has taken and make a secret cabal to reform it, which turns into the Rebellion. Funnily enough Bail Organa isn't a King in the prequels, which means he either got elected to Kingship after, or that The Empire has encouraged/forced planets into real-world style monarchies.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 09:43 |
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Snoke's death was pretty much just a response to all fan speculators on youtube (eg, "IS SNOKE MACE WINDU??!"). It was Rian Johnson screeching the car to a halt and scolding us for being little brats for asking the wrong questions. It was done to narrow the story down and focus on Kylo and Rey, and that's probably why Kathleen Kennedy allowed it to happen, so that it could bring it down to the characters' interpersonal conflict and drama. And this was a film starting off with a shitload of characters in the first place. I see it as "he was just the latest rear end in a top hat in charge, now let's focus on the people who matter." This was also reinforced by DJ's whole spiel about the military industrial complex -- Snoke is just the figurehead at the moment, but the fight would continue on without him or with someone else because that's in the interests of more powerful people. I mean, some folks have already said that this is bullshit because he's the one who turned Ben Solo to the dark side. Well, judging from Kylo's actions and quick temper, this was bound to happen at some point even independently of Snoke. It could have literally been anyone to turn him. Hell, I bet I coulda turned him if you gave me a few hours and we get him drunk on space booze. That dude was cracking already. But my point is that killing Snoke off fits thematically and it will probably be for the better if it's handled well in Episode IX, especially when it comes to exploring Kylo Ren further. That's what I want more than anything from JJ Abrams: show us what drives Kylo Ren to be such an rear end in a top hat. He can be a pathetic rear end in a top hat and not a badass, but just do it right whatever it is... And hell, I wouldn't mind if there were no Resistance or rebellion in the next movie since they just got annihilated. I like it that Johnson tried to take it in a new direction, and I think that's what could end up making these films (VIII and IX) great -- to keep going into "uncharted territory." Wheat Loaf posted:If the Separatists had won the Clone Wars, the OT would have been about Luke's rise to middle-management in the Trade Federation, realising his career is going nowhere and recruiting Han, Leia, Lando and the rest to start his own rival company. The climactic scene of ESB would have been Skywalker LLC's flotation on the Coruscant Stock Exchange and then ROTJ would be boardroom politics to fend off a leveraged buyout by Palpatine facilitated by Darth Vader's private equity fund. if late '90s Lucas directed the OT instead of late '70s Lucas, we'd have ended up with something not very different than this. Except the climax of the death star blowing up would be the dot com bubble bursting...
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 09:44 |
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galagazombie posted:The politics in the OT are vague enough that all we really know is that the Empire is totalitarian and evil while the Rebels like "freedom" and want to bring back a system that at least called itself democratic. The PT goes more in-depth explicitly showing that at least the "good" noble titles to be fancy names for elected positions like Padme being a Queen who had to get elected and then leave after her term was up. The Separatists are explicitly shown to be made of anti-democratic elements whose raison d'être is to get rid of governments power over big business. While the proto-rebellion is made of Senators disillusioned with the undemocratic turn the Republic itself has taken and make a secret cabal to reform it, which turns into the Rebellion. Funnily enough Bail Organa isn't a King in the prequels, which means he either got elected to Kingship after, or that The Empire has encouraged/forced planets into real-world style monarchies. Yea, I don't think Lucas intended anything other than the Empire being akin to the United States fighting in Vietnam. Throw on some nazi helmets, call them "stormtroopers," but the original Star Wars wasn't suppose to be too political beyond that kind of vague and superficial aspect. The prequels are a whole different monster because Lucas had a bit of an ego by that point and probably thought he could make a statement or some poo poo with the political subplot, but it just ended up being a boring mess. edit: it was also obviously supposed to resemble the Roman Republic turning into an Empire as well but also very vague. Preston Waters fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Aug 28, 2018 |
# ? Aug 28, 2018 09:55 |
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galagazombie posted:The Separatists are explicitly shown to be made of anti-democratic elements whose raison d'être is to get rid of governments power over big business. Are the Separatists shown to be anti-democratic? They're certainly anti-Republic, but the Republic Senate seems to be hazily democratic at best - why does the Trade Federation have a seat?
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 10:00 |
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Preston Waters posted:if late '90s Lucas directed the OT instead of late '70s Lucas, we'd have ended up with something not very different than this. Except the climax of the death star blowing up would be the dot com bubble bursting... Presuming you'd be transplanting late 90s Lucas back to the late 70s so he's working on the OT with a PT mindset, it'd probably be all about the Luke would almost certainly promise to bring about "Morning in the Galaxy" at some stage and demand that Mr Palpatine tear down this Death Star. Nude Bog Lurker posted:Are the Separatists shown to be anti-democratic? They're certainly anti-Republic, but the Republic Senate seems to be hazily democratic at best - why does the Trade Federation have a seat? If you're happy to acknowledge the Clone Wars cartoon, it portrays the Separatists as having its own parliament of elected representatives in opposition to the Republic senate. However, all we ever see in the movies is a ruling council of honest business leaders who only want to extend the prosperity hoarded by the liberal Core Worlds elite to the non-human minorities in the Outer Rim. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Aug 28, 2018 |
# ? Aug 28, 2018 10:17 |
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:Are the Separatists shown to be anti-democratic? They're certainly anti-Republic, but the Republic Senate seems to be hazily democratic at best - why does the Trade Federation have a seat? Well, that's the thing - they're the already non-democratic elements of the Republic Senate deciding that they want to be running the whole show. They don't represent planets or populations, but business interests, and their leader is a Count.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 10:24 |
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Those earrings.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 11:46 |
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Preston Waters posted:Snoke's death was pretty much just a response to all fan speculators on youtube (eg, "IS SNOKE MACE WINDU??!"). It was Rian Johnson screeching the car to a halt and scolding us for being little brats for asking the wrong questions. That you think of Rian Johnson as your father explains a lot.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 12:56 |
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Honestly it's bringing my inner nerd out and I'm kind of offended anyone would think that lame poo poo Snoke is one of the baller rear end Jedi from the Prequels-----I mean like if you think that dude was Plo Koon's nephew, wake up and apologize.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 13:01 |
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Snoke is actually the Prester John of Star Wars, a mythical figure who was believed to be a great
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 13:12 |
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bushisms.txt posted:Yes it is. Rey has a long succession of parental figures including Luke Skywalker’s brother-in-law, Luke Skywalker’s sister, and Luke Skywalker himself. People really need to actually watch the movies
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 14:52 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Rey has a long succession of parental figures including Luke Skywalker’s brother-in-law, Luke Skywalker’s sister, and Luke Skywalker himself. Both her and kylo hold on to totems of the OT, and kylo is mad hes not the badass he's "supposed to be"(just ask the "hardcore"fans) despite following all the guidelines an uber nerd of the canon has given him. Have you actually watched the movies yet?
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 14:59 |
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bushisms.txt posted:Both her and kylo hold on to totems of the OT, and kylo is mad hes not the badass he's "supposed to be"(just ask the "hardcore"fans) despite following all the guidelines an uber nerd of the canon has given him. You said that Rey is special because she’s not part of the Skywalker family. Now you are saying that Rey is a part of the Skywalker family, and this prevents her from being special. Your thought processes are all disorganized.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:10 |
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It turns out Kylo's real enemies were the Story Group all along.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:21 |
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Wheat Loaf posted:Presuming you'd be transplanting late 90s Lucas back to the late 70s so he's working on the OT with a PT mindset, it'd probably be all about the The business leaders who rule the separatists waged a war of aggression against Naboo because they didn’t want to pay taxes, and then they attempted to provoke another war by assassinating an anti-war senator, and they all profited off this because they were a collection of financiers and arms manufacturers. You’re saying that George Lucas supported these things in the 1990s and that he was actually a fan of Ronald Reagan?
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:23 |
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The Trade Federation lead by Newt Reagan?
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:25 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You said that Rey is special because she’s not part of the Skywalker family. No, I said the nutrilogy is metacommenting on the canon of the franchise. You said she has three parental figures, 2 of which die atoning for doing things the old way, the other almost dies. Rey isn't a part of the family, unless you want to get into fan fiction, and the movie is saying she can still be the hero. She spends two movies waiting for the og heroes to take over because she doesn't believe she has a right to a part in the story. Are you sure you're in the right thread?
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:41 |
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The opening crawl says "taxation of trade routes" rather than taxes on Trade Federation profits or the incomes of its directors so it is a question of free trade versus protectionist tariffs; obviously, the Republic were basically trying to put up a wall around the Core planets - i.e. the rich, human-majority parts of the galaxy - and making the Outer Rim pay for it.
Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Aug 28, 2018 |
# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:46 |
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bushisms.txt posted:Both her and kylo hold on to totems of the OT, and kylo is mad hes not the badass he's "supposed to be"(just ask the "hardcore"fans) despite following all the guidelines an uber nerd of the canon has given him. Ah, the "It's about Star Wars itself!" school of criticism. Kylo Ren isn't angry because he's not an insecure Star Wars fan. He's angry because he's a religious warrior whose own family planned to murder him in his sleep.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:47 |
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:49 |
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Why is it so bad that instead of "I am your father" it's "I am your boyfriend".
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 15:58 |
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bushisms.txt posted:It's both. Kylo Ren isn't a Star Wars fan. There's no Star Wars franchise that exists within the world of the story for him to be a fan of.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 16:06 |
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bushisms.txt posted:No, I said the nutrilogy is metacommenting on the canon of the franchise. You said she has three parental figures, 2 of which die atoning for doing things the old way, the other almost dies. Rey isn't a part of the family, unless you want to get into fan fiction, and the movie is saying she can still be the hero. She spends two movies waiting for the og heroes to take over because she doesn't believe she has a right to a part in the story. Your entire ‘metacommentary’ is then based on the bizarre premise that real-world children watched Star Wars and grew horribly depressed because Luke Skywalker isn’t their real-world biological father. And then, you believe Luke Skywalker atones - for the crime of not loving your mother IRL - by killing himself. And this is the moral of the story.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 16:08 |
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Kylo Ren isn't a Star Wars fan. There's no Star Wars franchise that exists within the world of the story for him to be a fan of. He really likes Darth Vader
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 16:08 |
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Your entire ‘metacommentary’ is then based on the bizarre premise that real-world children watched Star Wars and grew horribly depressed because Luke Skywalker isn’t their real-world biological father. You would be surprised.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 16:10 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 14:13 |
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Bholder posted:Why is it so bad that instead of "I am your father" it's "I am your boyfriend". Let's ask NaughtyAmerica.
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# ? Aug 28, 2018 16:11 |