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Snipee posted:Whoops. I grew up with so many Chinese nationalists that I just assumed that he was just another one who doesn’t need to be paid his 五毛 to shill for the PRC. No, he's a Han supremacist; Pirate Radar was probably calling him a white supremacist as a jab at the implications of some of his arguments.
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Aug 28, 2018 17:36
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I think if you compared black America today to the black America written about in the Moynihan report you will find that the needle hasn’t moved on anything except the incarceration rate. Brushing past the woke idpol and affirmative action policies that do very little to help the majority of poc this country is rapidly resegregating: So you are stating in plain language that you think the civil rights movement accomplished nothing in the US. That contradicts what was mentioned in the article you yourself linked. To preempt you here, I'm not saying the civil rights movement succeeded completely, just that it did bring about major, important changes. Things are getting worse in the US because white people decided a few changes were enough, and older generations are now stepping back from those changes. But if you do believe that the civil rights movement was a waste and a failure, what is the correct policy that human beings could employ that will lead toward better racial equality? Because, remember, we're talking about China. All you've managed to do is deny that change is possible at all and insist the PRC shouldn't even attempt it. Do you have any constructive recommendations for how the CCP can improve the situation of marginalized minorities in China?
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Aug 28, 2018 17:38
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Heithinn Grasida posted:So you are stating in plain language that you think the civil rights movement accomplished nothing in the US. That contradicts what was mentioned in the article you yourself linked. To preempt you here, I'm not saying the civil rights movement succeeded completely, just that it did bring about major, important changes. Things are getting worse in the US because white people decided a few changes were enough, and older generations are now stepping back from those changes. I think you should read Derrick Bell’s take on the CR movement: quote:Instead, what Brown did for many African Americans was legitimate the status quo. While they remained poor and disempowered, their status was no longer a result of denied equality. Rather, Bell said, it marked a personal failure to take advantage of one's defined equal status. Liberals are always talking about those sweeping and widespread changes, and yet 50 years of woke liberal politics has achieved no progress on black unemployment, homeownership, or closing the wealth gap The only thing that has gone up for black Americans since the 1960s has been incarceration rate.
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Aug 28, 2018 17:56
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I think you should read Derrick Bell’s take on the CR movement: You're just quoting people at me to say the same thing I said in my post! But this is the China thread and you didn't say anything about the country we're talking about. If the civil rights movement was a complete failure (nothing you've quoted has said that by the way), what instead should the US or China do to improve racial equality?
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Aug 28, 2018 18:04
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There's a difference between the anecdata Uighur activists peddle to a receptive US audience in the media, intelligence, and diplomatic services that is then uncritically disseminated on the internet and the academic study of racial oppression in the US. Human rights imperialists are willfully blind to this distinction when they evaluate this evidence, presumably because they work from the assumption that the enemy regime, in this case China, must be hiding something. People in the US, particularly white people, are even less qualified to dictate solutions to racial oppression abroad than they are domestically. The track record of utter failure in the US should engender some humility in people who supposedly reject American exceptionalism. Bathtub Cheese fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 20:01
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You can't blithely ignore all criticisms of your pet government by yelling "US BAD" Also lol at the idea that a majority of posters in this thread are white despite a majority of them coming out and saying, multiple times, the opposite. Also is that the current talking point, That this is a conspiracy peddled by Uyghur nationalists to the west, who are also funding them to spread this information? Next you'll be telling me that the Uyghurs control the media and promote Uyghur-nationalist sentiments in order to create their own shadow government and eventually take over the PRC and turn it into a Caliphate 
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Aug 28, 2018 20:12
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Like if your first response to issues with your country is "yeah but (insert enemy country here) is worse" you need to take a step back because you've let your acceptance of a nationalist identity blind you to issues that exist within your own country.
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Aug 28, 2018 20:15
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Grapplejack posted:You can't blithely ignore all criticisms of your pet government by yelling "US BAD" Also lol at the idea that a majority of posters in this thread are white despite a majority of them coming out and saying, multiple times, the opposite. Also is that the current talking point, That this is a conspiracy peddled by Uyghur nationalists to the west, who are also funding them to spread this information? Next you'll be telling me that the Uyghurs control the media and promote Uyghur-nationalist sentiments in order to create their own shadow government and eventually take over the PRC and turn it into a Caliphate Nice strawman More like there is an overlap in interests between people who want Turkestan and US foreign policy. In the article I posted, it was clear from the IRS 990 that China human rights defenders were an AstroTurf front whose entire income comes from government grants.
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Aug 28, 2018 20:37
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lol people are still arguing with pevan "i'm a failure who couldn't even pass the fsot and become an agent of us imperialism" stan? can't believe people are arguing with a han supremacist (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 28, 2018 21:13
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I think it possible to acknowledge that the human rights abuses are happening, and that region has become literal police state..and also that Western viewpoints on that fact are heavily informed by the geopolitical Chess game being played. Colonization of XInjiang and Tibet went from fringe issues in the 2000s (remember when "Free Tibet" was a punchline?) straight to the mainstream just as the tenor of economic news regarding China went from "miracle" to "doomed to collapse." Simply put the major change was that Xi obviously took a path much more hostile to the West starting in 2013-2014. It isn't that abuses that need to be questioned but narratives. (Likewise, US has been suspecious silent on Rohingya issue for years while relations were initially improving. The situtation there was already being called a genocide back in 2015.) Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 21:25
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NGOs tend to get a lot of money from grants, because they're easy to get.  Here are the two pages in question from the 990; note that it doesn't specify where the grants came from, unfortunately, so we can't determine what sections of government grants they took money from, but that isn't really a big deal considering that it really isn't hard to get government grants as an NGO. Jeoh posted:lol people are still arguing with pevan "i'm a failure who couldn't even pass the fsot and become an agent of us imperialism" stan? can't believe people are arguing with a han supremacist Might as well argue with him, it's not like he can get banned or probated Ardennes posted:I think it possible to acknowledge that the human rights abuses are happening, and that region has become literal police state..and also that Western viewpoints on that fact are heavily informed by the geopolitical Chess game being played. Colonization of XInjiang and Tibet went from fringe issues in the 2000s (remember when "Free Tibet" was a punchline?) straight to the mainstream just as the tenor of economic news regarding China went from "miracle" to "doomed to collapse." The Rohingya genocides are awful and I wish the US was more willing to commit to helping that region out; there is zero chance of that happening with a Trump-lead state department, however. At least the UN has been fairly active with it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 28, 2018 21:42
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Ardennes posted:I think it possible to acknowledge that the human rights abuses are happening, and that region has become literal police state..and also that Western viewpoints on that fact are heavily informed by the geopolitical Chess game being played. Colonization of XInjiang and Tibet went from fringe issues in the 2000s (remember when "Free Tibet" was a punchline?) straight to the mainstream just as the tenor of economic news regarding China went from "miracle" to "doomed to collapse." Debatable. You could just as easily argue that people are paying more attention because the PRC's authoritarianism (towards minorities and in general) has become worse starting in 2012 or so. Remember that Chen Quanguo, the current Party Secretary of Xinjiang, became Party Secretary for Tibet back in 2011.
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Aug 28, 2018 21:47
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Silver2195 posted:Debatable. You could just as easily argue that people are paying more attention because the PRC's authoritarianism (towards minorities and in general) has become worse starting in 2012 or so. Remember that Chen Quanguo, the current Party Secretary of Xinjiang, became Party Secretary for Tibet back in 2011. There were already riots in Urumqi in 2009, and started to ramp up security measures after that and China has always had a heavy hand in Tibet (google news has plenty of old stories). It just really wasn't taken as a big issue. Arguably in XInjiang have become worse over time, but at that same time, the Western interests in them flipped like a switch.
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Aug 28, 2018 21:55
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Granted, Chinese-US relations has been this way since pretty much the Qing dynasty.
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Aug 28, 2018 21:55
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It is possible for both of the following statements to be true: 1. U.S. foreign policy and intelligence agencies act to advance U.S. foreign policy and intelligence goals 2. Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities in China suffer systematic oppression at the hands of a Han-dominated authoritarian government In fact I would wager that both statements are true, and number one can indeed seek to exploit number two. It is very common for rival countries to take advantage of ethnic and class tension already present to advance foreign policy and intelligence goals.
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Aug 28, 2018 22:19
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Grapplejack posted:The Rohingya genocides are awful and I wish the US was more willing to commit to helping that region out; there is zero chance of that happening with a Trump-lead state department, however. At least the UN has been fairly active with it. Not the US government, but this happened. https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...m=.3c4db2eb7277
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Aug 28, 2018 22:35
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At least Norway got to ask the Nobel prize money chargeback from Aung San Suu Kyi
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Aug 28, 2018 22:43
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Chadderbox posted:Not the US government, but this happened. did you know? facebook is a cia op, and the poor buddhist generals are being framed
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Aug 28, 2018 22:46
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Grapplejack posted:The Rohingya genocides are awful and I wish the US was more willing to commit to helping that region out; there is zero chance of that happening with a Trump-lead state department, however. At least the UN has been fairly active with it. They were awful and actively swept under the rug by the American media when Obama was trying to play 5D chess and land Myanmar in the US column. When it became clear that China was going to be their paramount trading partner and not the US immediately all the laudatory rhetoric surrounding Aung San Suu Kyi evaporated. She's been a right winger and elitist her entire career in politics, why did she deserve a nobel peace prize then for ignoring the genocides of the Karen and Royhingya people? The former has been going on since the 1940s and yet even today nobody mentions or gives a poo poo about them.
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Aug 28, 2018 23:32
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Wait doesn't that mean China is equally complicit since they've been ignoring it the entire time even when Myanmar was out of their orbit?
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Aug 29, 2018 00:48
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Bloodnose posted:It is possible for both of the following statements to be true: The whole point is your confidence in item 2 is derived from information based almost solely on information "collected" and presented with the intention of furthering item 1. Bathtub Cheese fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 29, 2018 |
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Aug 29, 2018 01:02
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Silver2195 posted:No, he's a Han supremacist; Pirate Radar was probably calling him a white supremacist as a jab at the implications of some of his arguments. I call him a white supremacist because he consistently makes arguments that revolve around white people and put whites in the driver’s seat of world affairs as if this is the natural state. His attitude towards nonwhites varies across a narrow range from explicit racism (“jungle Asians”) to implicit racism (marginalizing and minimizing the voices of nonwhites whose experiences he cannot derive rhetorical value from; in effect reducing nonwhites to the status of props for either him or his white rhetorical opponents).
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Aug 29, 2018 01:18
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Re-education camps are a "stick" approach to solving cultural differences, which are on the slippery slope to genocide. In today's hyper-connected age re-education campaigns are likely to fail once the minority children become adults. The PRC can try censoring the internet and other methods, but eventually the "re-educated" Uighurs are going to find out their cultural heritage, find out that they are being treated unfairly by the Han-dominated PRC, and rebel in some way, either through civil disobedience or terror attacks. Instead a "carrot" approach might be better, where the Uighurs are given their own semi-autonomous state with their own laws and customs, but must also follow some PRC laws to make sure minorities in the new Uighur state are treated fairly. The new Uighur state would also have to contribute to national Chinese endeavors, whether they be military or big public projects. Essentially applying the US "state" model to China.
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Aug 29, 2018 01:35
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qkkl posted:Re-education camps are a "stick" approach to solving cultural differences, which are on the slippery slope to genocide. Xinjiang is already an autonomous region
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Aug 29, 2018 01:39
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Grapplejack posted:Next you'll be telling me that the Uyghurs control the media and promote Uyghur-nationalist sentiments in order to create their own shadow government and eventually take over the PRC and turn it into a Caliphate don't doxx me Ardennes posted:Granted, Chinese-US relations has been this way since pretty much the Qing dynasty. RIP Yuan Shikai, visionary and man of the people.
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Aug 29, 2018 01:42
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Xinjiang is already an autonomous region It is in theory, but not in practice.
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Aug 29, 2018 01:43
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Xinjiang is already an autonomous region I was thinking about a semi-autonomous state just for the Uighurs, similar to how Chechnya is a semi-autonomous state in Russia, with its leader being fiercely pro-Putin. Right now Xinjiang is about 45% Uighur and 40% Han.
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Aug 29, 2018 01:47
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Silver2195 posted:It is in theory, but not in practice. What would that look like in practice? Seems like they have extensive rights to ethnic autonomy already
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Aug 29, 2018 01:49
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Xinjiang is already an autonomous region lmao and the nazis were socialists because it’s in the name  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 29, 2018 01:49
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qkkl posted:I was thinking about a semi-autonomous state just for the Uighurs, similar to how Chechnya is a semi-autonomous state in Russia, with its leader being fiercely pro-Putin. Right now Xinjiang is about 45% Uighur and 40% Han. First they'd have to find an Uighur with the C-list Bond villain style of Ramzan Kadyrov, though. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:What would that look like in practice? I seem to recall that you routinely reject Western media sources as imperialist pigs. Why should we accept a Chinese government source on how they're totally treating the Uighurs humanely and respectfully? Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Aug 29, 2018 |
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Aug 29, 2018 01:49
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I seem to recall that you routinely reject Western media sources as imperialist pigs. Why should we accept a Chinese government source on how they're totally treating the Uighurs humanely and respectfully? You do you man, I just thought I would post the other side of the debate for razor sharp and critically thinking western liberals to dissect in good faith
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Aug 29, 2018 01:54
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:You do you man, I just thought I would post the other side of the debate for razor sharp and critically thinking western liberals to dissect in good faith I actually quite enjoyed examining that one article on agriculture and the revolutionary
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Aug 29, 2018 01:59
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Bathtub Cheese posted:The whole point is your confidence in item 2 is derived from information based almost solely on information "collected" and presented with the intention of furthering item 1. Having been personally responsible for doing so, I am pretty confident in the accuracy of that information.
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Aug 29, 2018 22:08
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Aug 29, 2018 23:54
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Aug 29, 2018 23:55
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Aug 30, 2018 06:26
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You know if full communism was implemented in short bursts like a decade or so and then free market capitalism was allowed to return would we see a significant miracle like we saw in china? I mean if 50mil people hadnt died in the cultural revolution would mao be seen as the greatest statesman of all time?
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Aug 30, 2018 07:10
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LeoMarr posted:You know if full communism was implemented in short bursts like a decade or so and then free market capitalism was allowed to return would we see a significant miracle like we saw in china? I mean if 50mil people hadnt died in the cultural revolution would mao be seen as the greatest statesman of all time? one could argue that mao was the primary driver behind all the fuckups of the prc
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Aug 30, 2018 08:25
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LeoMarr posted:You know if full communism was implemented in short bursts like a decade or so and then free market capitalism was allowed to return would we see a significant miracle like we saw in china? I mean if 50mil people hadnt died in the cultural revolution would mao be seen as the greatest statesman of all time? I think that a decade of communism followed by free market reforms could have led a much better outcome (possibly even better for economic development than a straight jump into capitalism). The extremely important task of land reform gets carried out by a government that would be unsympathetic to otherwise influential rent-seeking landowners. Communist regimes also tend to be decent at developing heavy industry (China’s infamously terrible experiments with overly ambitious and poorly thought out plans during the Great Leap Forward notwithstanding) and building infrastructure even though they have well-known weaknesses in producing consumer goods. Funny enough, Maoist economic policies proved surprisingly effective at laying down the foundations for attracting foreign investment once China did open up. His policy of exhorting everyone to have more babies also happened to have supplied the country with a massive pool of cheap labor for the foreign capitalists to exploit. Ideally, this version of China wouldn’t scare away all of the intellectuals that haven’t already been imprisoned, murdered, or sent down to the countryside. If Mao had pulled all of this off, he truly would have been considered one of the greatest statesmen of the 20th century. Of course, Mao was revealed to be an incompetent paranoid monster in our timeline, so clearly this fantasy version of Mao would have necessarily been extremely different and not at all similar to the real Mao.
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Aug 30, 2018 11:18
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Or, better idea: Fantasy Competent Mao gives China ten years of competent communist leadership without cracking down on intellectual freedoms and then keeps doing that and doesn’t open up the country to capitalist exploitation.
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Aug 30, 2018 11:33
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