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Taking the time to look at Wiz's latest teaser I think it's a great change. Previously happiness was just a bonus/penalty to productivity and at very low levels could cause some fairly meaningless "unrest". The new system looks at stability, which is so much more flexible. Happy workers are productive workers is a lovely truism for a nice egalitarian society, but a slave society isn't going to really give a poo poo about the happiness of its slaves. A corporate dictatorship is not going to care much about how happy and fulfilled the working class are and so on. Slave and other oppressive societies are built around negating or ignoring the plight of their workers. Stability then instead represents the overall effectiveness of your society's model on that planet. So an egalitarian society is going to want to try to make everyone happy because as an open democratic society it functions better when everyone feels happy and stable as everyone's plight is more or less equal. It doesn't matter if that elite pop is super happy and sitting on a pile of luxuries, those 2 unhappy workers more than outweigh him. But a brutal class-based society can safely ignore the peasants and slaves because stability in their society is based on the happiness and loyalty of the elite. That one happy elite pop more than makes up for the 10 miserable slaves, their misery doesn't effect the system of their society. This is great because now pops like slaves and oppressed workers can be extremely unhappy, which hopefully can one day hook up into a more meaningful unrest and revolt system, but not have their production penalized. It also means we no longer need to micro happy/unhappy pops. Previously you might be running materialist empire where everyone is 100% happy due to your policies, but that one loving spiritualist pop is at 40%, and he's working the god drat ministry of culture, a very important and productive building. Now the effects of happiness are abstracted planet-wide into stability, so the individual per-tile happiness bonus/penalty isn't something you need to worry about.
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Aug 28, 2018 17:54
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Poor wiz, thought of pushback and died 
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Aug 28, 2018 18:33
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New happy sounds good and more interesting than old happy.
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Aug 28, 2018 18:40
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Psychotic Weasel posted:From what we know now it sounds like housing is tied to districts, of which planets can only support a finite amount. Some allowing for more than others depending on the type. I’m curious how much of an impact will be felt by overcrowding/negative housing. Maybe with the proper subsidies/buildings/whatever we can just shove people into tighter and tighter quarters and they won’t complain too much.
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Aug 28, 2018 18:47
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Psychotic Weasel posted:From what we know now it sounds like housing is tied to districts, of which planets can only support a finite amount. Some allowing for more than others depending on the type. You could add tiers of district that get progressively more idiotically expensive for housing, mind.
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Aug 28, 2018 19:05
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You could probably mod in some really cool planetary upgrades with this system, like an equatorial ring or something you construct as a megastructure which adds district slots to the host planet for a variety of really special development types and/or extra housing.
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Aug 28, 2018 19:18
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I don't remember seeing anything about it, is there a way to stop growth on a planet? Maybe an empire policy setting that limits how much overcrowding there can be?
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Aug 28, 2018 20:55
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binge crotching posted:I don't remember seeing anything about it, is there a way to stop growth on a planet? Maybe an empire policy setting that limits how much overcrowding there can be? Wiz mentioned “growth controls” in a broad sense. We don’t know if that’s just a Civ-like “stop growing” box or not to my knowledge.
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Aug 28, 2018 21:05
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Presumably running out of housing creates a negative growth modifier so, all other things being equal, you won't end up with much if any overcrowding. But the diaries do say that some crowding is good because it increases emigration pressure, which in turn increases growth through immigration in new colonies. It would be a little funny if the optimal strategy is to make all your old worlds just a bit poo poo so new ones grow faster.
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Aug 28, 2018 21:20
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Yeah that's one of my worries is what options we'll have to control growth will all be brutal and make factions mad. Like our options will be "let population grow out of control" or "ban all reproduction for this species". The game just isn't socially/economically detailed enough to really model the various factors that so heavily influence actual population growth. If it's too easy and just a button then overpopulation will never be a risk, but if any sort of controls are limited to tyrants egalitarians will be forced to constantly be expanding to house their uncontrollably growing pops. I'd really like overpopulation to be a worry, but I'd like it so all types of societies have some way of dealing with it. A dictatorship can just decree a 1-child policy, while a democracy might need to offer carrots instead of sticks to get people to be mindful of their family sizes. A corporate directorate could simply make raising a family cripplingly expensive. A theocracy could have a cultural push towards celebrating celibacy. Lots of flavourful options!
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Aug 28, 2018 21:22
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* Social Justice: Enabling this option will grant cultural and social equality to the historically subaltern portions of your primary species, increasing happiness and production and somewhat reducing population growth (due to other pursuits). ** Angers the Gamer faction.
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Aug 28, 2018 22:01
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Looking forward to having robot Enforcers to keep the proles in line
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Aug 28, 2018 22:09
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I do think overpopulation and its downsides could be an interesting internal late-game crisis of sorts. If there’s some sort of magic solution for it I hope it’s at least one that I need to sacrifice other parts of my empire to achieve.
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Aug 28, 2018 22:17
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Go with Flesh is Weak to get Literally Robocop.
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Aug 28, 2018 22:18
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Imagine going with synthetic ascension but it's only for the upper class and their cyborg enforcers. Unemployed worker pops are hunted down in the streets and their organs REPO'd until only robot workers and the elite remain.
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Aug 28, 2018 22:30
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Anno posted:I do think overpopulation and its downsides could be an interesting internal late-game crisis of sorts. If there’s some sort of magic solution for it I hope it’s at least one that I need to sacrifice other parts of my empire to achieve. I don't want to live in a world where the solution isn't "Build more ringworlds"
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Aug 28, 2018 22:58
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Demiurge4 posted:Imagine going with synthetic ascension but it's only for the upper class and their cyborg enforcers. Unemployed worker pops are hunted down in the streets and their organs REPO'd until only robot workers and the elite remain. This is the sort of storytelling I want in the game. Biological immortality treatments? Only for the rich in this society. Uplift to a perfect immortal machine? Sorry, only for the ruling class.
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Aug 28, 2018 23:03
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The idea that as you attain mastery over literal suns and have limitless energy and materials you can't find a place for people to live or that they get mad about stuff like traffic and health care, doesn't really resonate with me. It does seem to be that the politics / internal strife stuff is being fleshed out, from a personal preference level I just wish that the problems that these future societies encountered were extrapolations of current problems imagined in a future setting instead of a 1:1 translation of existing problems.
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Aug 28, 2018 23:04
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What in Stellaris could possibly give you the impression there's limitless energy and materials? There's not. This is literally what the whole living standards mechanic is about.
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Aug 28, 2018 23:16
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The idea that as you attain mastery over literal suns and have limitless energy and materials you can't find a place for people to live or that they get mad about stuff like traffic and health care, doesn't really resonate with me. I suspect though that unless the game goes truly 'post-body' then living space will always be an issue. i.e. we don't have the option to upload the whole of society to computer mainframes (rather than robot bodies) or transcend into an energy state so physical space is just a cornerstone of the game for the time being even when matter replication and teleportation become possible and as a poster above suggested 'just build more ringworlds'. What I would like to see, which is what I think you're suggesting, is reference to the social problems caused by technological advances, e.g. what happens when people clone themselves too much or become unhappy with their robot bodies ect, e.g. how do you manage a society where the same person can exist in three different places at once or whatever. Things like Altered Carbon and Alpha Centurai touch on issues like this but I wonder if it's outside of the intended scope of Stellaris, which is mostly divorced from the personal issues of your populations.
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Aug 28, 2018 23:18
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The idea that as you attain mastery over literal suns and have limitless energy and materials you can't find a place for people to live or that they get mad about stuff like traffic and health care, doesn't really resonate with me. It's not that we can't find solutions to the problems of the masses, but why dedicate our resources to making their lives better when our peacekeeping robots are already taking care of the problem?
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Aug 28, 2018 23:20
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Log082 posted:I don't want to live in a world where the solution isn't "Build more ringworlds" That would definitely be my preferred option. Or better yet just have one ringworld be able to hold essentially infinite pops but require massive costs upfront and to continue expanding. Basically a planet with like 999 available city districts that scale in cost or something.
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Aug 28, 2018 23:37
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah that's one of my worries is what options we'll have to control growth will all be brutal and make factions mad. Like our options will be "let population grow out of control" or "ban all reproduction for this species". The game just isn't socially/economically detailed enough to really model the various factors that so heavily influence actual population growth. If it's too easy and just a button then overpopulation will never be a risk, but if any sort of controls are limited to tyrants egalitarians will be forced to constantly be expanding to house their uncontrollably growing pops. Conceivably you could have it such that if you keep people happy (or suppressed) enough then overpopulation reaches equilibrium without tanking your empire. Ham Sandwiches posted:The idea that as you attain mastery over literal suns and have limitless energy and materials you can't find a place for people to live or that they get mad about stuff like traffic and health care, doesn't really resonate with me. The sun doesn't have rights. Your people might not either, but if they do, then they do not become easier to control as you advance technologically, unlike the sun. The sun is very big but ultimately, static. Your population is not. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 23:45
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Nickiepoo posted:What I would like to see, which is what I think you're suggesting, is reference to the social problems caused by technological advances, e.g. what happens when people clone themselves too much or become unhappy with their robot bodies ect, e.g. how do you manage a society where the same person can exist in three different places at once or whatever. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. I imagine there will be strife in the future, it seems like a likely source of that strife is the ever diverging goals of the various species. Even today, our materialists and spiritualists have differences of opinion. Imagine how spiritualists would react to people putting themselves in robot bodies or egalitarians reacting to someone discovering the equivalent of nerve stapling and the destruction of individual will or some such jazz. To me it's interesting to look at those conflicts rather than like, the immigrants are space stealing
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Aug 29, 2018 00:03
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Nickiepoo posted:I suspect though that unless the game goes truly 'post-body' then living space will always be an issue. i.e. we don't have the option to upload the whole of society to computer mainframes (rather than robot bodies) or transcend into an energy state so physical space is just a cornerstone of the game for the time being even when matter replication and teleportation become possible and as a poster above suggested 'just build more ringworlds'. I think things like clone angst would be logical to tie into factions. But some species might not care. Maybe your buggers are such that every "individual" is a small hive with a queen and fifty worker drones. That would put a very different color on the perception of "cloning" than it would for organisms like humans!
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Aug 29, 2018 00:33
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I wouldn't really say stellaris supports very "alien" aliens, gestalt consciousness aside. They might be slightly stronger or shorter-lived, but they're basically humans in suits as far as the mechanics are concerned. Not intended as a criticism, just a statement of fact.
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Aug 29, 2018 00:51
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Having more-alien aliens seems to be a design goal of 2.2, though. Or at least the capability to make them in the future.
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Aug 29, 2018 00:58
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Is it "talk about getting more of the really funky civics and putting them in their own section" time yet?
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Aug 29, 2018 01:18
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Strudel Man posted:I wouldn't really say stellaris supports very "alien" aliens, gestalt consciousness aside. They might be slightly stronger or shorter-lived, but they're basically humans in suits as far as the mechanics are concerned.
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Aug 29, 2018 01:24
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Nessus posted:Well to a certain extent this could be seen as an artistic statement. Edit: maybe the one with the space dolphins.
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Aug 29, 2018 01:33
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I think a big weakness in the game is that it's extreme flexibility with race design also means it's hard to get those really interesting specifics. For example if you could only play as humans, or "human" was a detailed category of species like robots and hive it could be packed full of more human-centric mechanics and fluff because we know how human biology and psychology and politics work. But we have to keep things generic, flexible. This ability to make custom races is also a huge strength of the game, but it leads to what I call "cloud syndrome" in any game with random/procedural content. Sure, every cloud is technically unique, but once you've seen a few of each type you've kinda seen them all and the infinite variety ends up boiling down to just a handful of notable types. I'm glad the general species types in Stellaris have been getting fleshed out more, I hope they do more though for the more generic "person" species though where you can really flesh out their society and biology a little more beyond some generic modifiers and lets you define how your internal politics and economy works in more detail. Are my aliens just trek style "people but with a different culture" or are there some real fundamental differences in our brains and thus our societies and outlooks and thus interactions? Things beyond flexible ethos. A species that grew up on a planet with no real concept of predators and find it physiologically nearly impossible to have desires that would lead to militarism. Different evolution, different brains, different weights on ethos, optionally. Make species potentially less generic and flexible. What does your pacifist empire do after conquering a species of brutal apex predators who a physically unable of adopting the concept of pacifism and have a strong biological weight towards militarist? What does your spiritualist empire do with its vassal of "flying computer" bird people who's brains and thus society has no concept of spiritualism? We can have a huge variety of biology in the game, but outside of hives and robots all species have the same psychology, seemingly the exact same brains all equally open to any sort of ethos. I'm not saying make all aliens have hard-wired ethos biases, but the option to play as or encounter aliens that do could really help make species memorable and unique. Sometimes you can't just change a species core psychology with propaganda and faction suppression.
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Aug 29, 2018 03:14
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It'd be hard to do a lot of that well, but I have always thought every species should itself come with maybe one inherent ethic predisposition. Not locking it out of the opposite, but giving it a certain leaning.
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Aug 29, 2018 03:33
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Strudel Man posted:It'd be hard to do a lot of that well, but I have always thought every species should itself come with maybe one inherent ethic predisposition. Not locking it out of the opposite, but giving it a certain leaning.
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Aug 29, 2018 07:20
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Nessus posted:Those cute snuggly shy flowers can be genocidal purifiers Surely "must be"?
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Aug 29, 2018 08:46
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I dunno, I just want all the species and ship packs. All of them. Make an Aquatics species pack where every species is floating in a giant fish bowl.
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Aug 29, 2018 09:27
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Titanic sized aliens. each pop is literally 1 alien
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Aug 29, 2018 09:40
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Synthbuttrange posted:Titanic sized aliens. I remember a game... Reach for the Stars? Where one of the races was like this. Unlike the other races where they started with tiny ships and developed bigger ones with tech, the titan race started with superdreadnaughts and had to research smaller ones. Cruisers were single seat fighters to them, and frigates were AI drones and a late game tech.
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Aug 29, 2018 09:47
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Bremen posted:I remember a game... Reach for the Stars? Where one of the races was like this. Unlike the other races where they started with tiny ships and developed bigger ones with tech, the titan race started with superdreadnaughts and had to research smaller ones. Cruisers were single seat fighters to them, and frigates were AI drones and a late game tech.
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Aug 29, 2018 09:54
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They were giant floating whales that lived in gas giants. There were also tiny bugs that lived on meteorites and made tiny spaceships.
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Aug 29, 2018 09:58
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Wiz did u put the possible sol where instead of ww2 or tomb roaches or cave men it's titanic life + presapient reptiles? Wiz when is Sexy Planets DLC coming out and also I want to play as space amoebas
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Aug 29, 2018 10:12
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