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Bongo Bill posted:Correct. I own a copy of Star Wars. Disney owns the legal permission to make more copies of Star Wars. The words "Star Wars" can be used to refer to many different things of many different kinds (such as copies of films or legal permissions to make more copies of films). Some of the things to which the words "Star Wars" refers are not actually capable of being owned. Correct and Disney gets to decide what is canon. Everything else is just fans deciding what they like to be true and what they don't like to be true for the franchise.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:42
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Raccooon posted:Correct and Disney gets to decide what is canon. Everything else is just fans deciding what they like to be true and what they don't like to be true for the franchise. Who here do you think does not understand how canon works?
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Aug 31, 2018 02:42
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jivjov posted:I just crusade for honest discussion. When people are here saying "Jakku is Tatooine" "starkiller Base is a Death Star" "coruscant and hosnian Prime are the same" etc, they are being factually inaccurate. Some are doing it on purpose, like SMG. Others are just misinformed. But it's hard to have a conversation about a franchise if we're not all on the same page about what does and doesn't "count" You're correct that we aren't on the same page. But it's for ideological rather than factual reasons. That's why you keep repeating yourself and people keep not caring.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:43
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Canon decision making is not included in the bundle of rights associated with copyrights and trademarks. Anyone can make canon.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:43
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Bongo Bill posted:Who here do you think does not understand how canon works? You haven't given a clear understanding of it.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:43
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AvP was apparently Canon but Ridley Scott killed it with Prometheus by including Weyland who was character in AvP. But now I guess there’s a reference to AvP in The Predator so now it is canon, so who really knows. The point is it doesn’t matter. Just watch the movie and enjoy it.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:44
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Raccooon posted:You haven't given a clear understanding of it. Canon is a collection of works which some authority has approved for some purpose. It works by that authority deciding that the works are in some way related, and then saying so in its capacity as an authority.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:45
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Bongo Bill posted:Canon is a collection of works which some authority has approved for some purpose. It works by that authority deciding that the works are in some way related, and then saying so in its capacity as an authority. What's canon then? Just whatever any individual decides? I would define Canon as a start point that is easily agreeable between fans. The movies being the most obvious point, as the series started with movies. If we were talking about LOTR, then it would be the books.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:48
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Fox also said that Aliens Colonial Marines was officially canon, which has Hicks not being dead because he was picked up by some WY soldiers and replaced with some guy. But the game was terrible and no one actually considers it canon.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:50
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Raccooon posted:What's canon then? Just whatever any individual decides? I acknowledge that Disney has authority over their list. If they want to have authority over me, then the next time I commit the heresy of refusing to acknowledge a work they have canonized, they'll have to send an enforcer who knows a more powerful move than making internet posts. Now, the implicit acknowledgment of Disney's authority might well be an important part of fandom rituals, but I don't usually participate in fandom. Instead I just talk about art, and sometimes, when necessary, indicate by title the specific works of art that I'm talking about. Remarkably, people are usually able to understand what I say without intermediation.
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Aug 31, 2018 03:11
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Bongo Bill posted:I acknowledge that Disney has authority over their list. So we agree then that Disney is the Canon?
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Aug 31, 2018 03:16
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Raccooon posted:So we agree then that Disney is the Canon? Like I said, I acknowledge that Disney has authority over their list.
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Aug 31, 2018 03:17
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"So you finally admit I'm right!" I say, drenched in sweat and on the verge of frustrated tears
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Aug 31, 2018 03:21
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Has anyone quoted Barthes yet?
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Aug 31, 2018 03:22
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Guy A. Person posted:"So you finally admit I'm right!" I say, drenched in sweat and on the verge of frustrated tears I mean this whole canon derail is the dumbest poo poo in this thread
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Aug 31, 2018 03:29
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The thing about the canon is that it's not the same thing as the movies, and indeed explicitly disagrees with the movies. Like, sure, Pablo Hidalgo controls it, but Pablo Hidalgo also controls what Pablo Hidalgo eats for breakfast. What's that got to do with any of us? Remember, this is no longer canon -  - even though it unambiguously happens in TFA. So, there's no reason we should refer to or care about the Disney corporation's canon in this, our discussion of the Star Wars films.
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Aug 31, 2018 03:38
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Ferrinus posted:The thing about the canon is that it's not the same thing as the movies, and indeed explicitly disagrees with the movies. Like, sure, Pablo Hidalgo controls it, but Pablo Hidalgo also controls what Pablo Hidalgo eats for breakfast. What's that got to do with any of us? How is that not canon? His wounds are shown being healed in TLJ
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Aug 31, 2018 03:41
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porfiria posted:Yeah that, but it's a fantasy story so maybe, but she's also a slave so it makes sense she might not want to talk about who or what the baby daddy is. The line also continues with I carried him, I raised him etc suggesting that he doesn't have a father in the sense that there's no father in the picture. I don't see any reason to believe that Shmii is lying. My take away was slightly different: Quigon takes the virgin birth as a sign, but a virgin birth is not what actually makes someone a messiah
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Aug 31, 2018 03:43
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Ferrinus posted:The thing about the canon is that Ain't no one one care about Star Wars canon besides that doughy retard jivjov and I'm pretty sure he's just trolling at this point.
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Aug 31, 2018 03:44
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jivjov posted:I just crusade for honest discussion. When people are here saying "Jakku is Tatooine" "starkiller Base is a Death Star" "coruscant and hosnian Prime are the same" etc, they are being factually inaccurate. Some are doing it on purpose, like SMG. Others are just misinformed. But it's hard to have a conversation about a franchise if we're not all on the same page about what does and doesn't "count" Amazing people ever managed to understand stories before ip law. You’re trying to tell me Hylas drowned AND fell in love with the nymphs? How are we ever supposed to discuss Heracles when the continuity is so shoddy??
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Aug 31, 2018 03:50
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Raccooon posted:How is that not canon? His wounds are shown being healed in TLJ A different wound than that is shown being healed in TLJ.
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Aug 31, 2018 03:53
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Ferrinus posted:A different wound than that is shown being healed in TLJ. IDK i just looked at the throne room scene again and it looks like the same wounds just healed over.
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Aug 31, 2018 03:55
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*the year is 2072, ANH haa just entered the public domain* Me: begun, the Canon Wars have
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Aug 31, 2018 04:02
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Raccooon posted:IDK i just looked at the throne room scene again and it looks like the same wounds just healed over. no, it's different. it's been widely reported on, too. "It was my decision to slightly adjust it, and that was my justification. It honestly looked goofy running straight up the bridge of his nose" it was obviously supposed to be a fairly disfiguring scar, which kylo would then probably hide behind the mask, but rian changed it because 'it looked goofy'. kylo would be, in a way, becoming vader while somewhat unwillingly following the dark side. it's pretty obvious stuff leading on from TFA. but ren in general feels like a pretty different character to how he was depicted in TFA.
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Aug 31, 2018 04:16
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:no, it's different. it's been widely reported on, too. So the difference is a slight change of the angle of the forehead scar?
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Aug 31, 2018 04:21
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Star Wars isn't real. You can't go there, there isn't really a Star Wars Galaxy. It's all fake.
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Aug 31, 2018 04:23
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Raccooon posted:So the difference is a slight change of the angle of the forehead scar? it goes from up and over his nose in a fairly ugly manner to generic sexy eyebrow scar
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Aug 31, 2018 04:24
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Raccooon posted:So the difference is a slight change of the angle of the forehead scar? If canon can allow for slight falsehoods, what else can it allow for? quote:Star Wars isn't real. You can't go there, there isn't really a Star Wars Galaxy. Buddy I'm living in it It sucks here a lot tbh
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Aug 31, 2018 04:26
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:it goes from up and over his nose in a fairly ugly manner to generic sexy eyebrow scar It just seems like such an insignificant detail.
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Aug 31, 2018 04:27
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RBA Starblade posted:If canon can allow for slight falsehoods, what else can it allow for? You're right. It's all over. Nothing matters
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Aug 31, 2018 04:28
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I hope JJ changes the scar back
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Aug 31, 2018 04:29
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Raccooon posted:It just seems like such an insignificant detail. Changing the scar from ugly and weird to cool and sinister was a cowardly act.
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Aug 31, 2018 04:29
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PostNouveau posted:I hope JJ changes the scar back Me too. The series will be terrible if he doesn't
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Aug 31, 2018 04:31
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Also I hope Rey and Kylo make out for, like, an uncomfortable amount of time. Give the fans what they want JJ
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Aug 31, 2018 04:34
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Really I was hoping for a Finn and Rey make out so we got to see how many fans got mad at a mixed race romance.
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Aug 31, 2018 04:35
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jivjov posted:Im saying that the owners of Star Wars determine what is and isn't canon. If you don't accept this, you aren't accepting reality. Qui-Gon Jinn (The Phantom Menace) posted:Remember: Your focus determines your reality. Who am I to believe here?
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Aug 31, 2018 04:36
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Raccooon posted:Really I was hoping for a Finn and Rey make out so we got to see how many fans got mad at a mixed race romance. Episode IX is set 4 years later and they've already got 3 kids.
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Aug 31, 2018 04:39
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PostNouveau posted:Episode IX is set 4 years later and they've already got 3 kids. God I hope so. If Finn isn't pounding that poo poo then there is no point for his character in IX
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Aug 31, 2018 04:41
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Raccooon posted:It just seems like such an insignificant detail. Nah. We're talking about the face of one of the stars and whether it looks cool or disfigured. And if that's not obviously meaningful on its face, note that the director specifically changed it because he wanted the character to feel different.
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Aug 31, 2018 04:59
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Sir Kodiak posted:Nah. We're talking about the face of one of the stars and whether it looks cool or disfigured. And if that's not obviously meaningful on its face, note that the director specifically changed it because he wanted the character to feel different. And that's a big thing about Kylo Ren that's different from TFA and TLJ. Kylo Ren remains the best character in the ST, although a lot of that is carried on the back of Adam Driver's phenomenal acting, but he's changed a lot between the first two films, as has just about everything to do with him. As has the First Order and Snoke and everything he sits in relation to. I found Ren interesting in TFA because he seemed more like a propaganda piece than a weapon. Ren had pull in the First Order because he was Snoke's prized lackey, not because he was his executor as such. Ren had a lot of power but everyone obviously only tolerated him and his Vader fetish out of a wariness of his tantrums or for fear of Snoke's wrath. There even seemed to be a bit of an institutional conflict between Hux's aspect of the First Order and Snoke's aspect. Like the First Order was a secular, military organization which had a mystical sorcerer as its head. He's skilled enough to, even wounded, play with Finn before cutting him down, but his showdown with Rey makes it clear that he's not a fantastic fighter. Like Rey herself, he's just a beginner. Notice how Snoke isn't that upset that he lost -- even saying that it's time to finish Ren's training. Does Snoke know that Rey is simply a more powerful Force user? Maybe. Ben Solo's identity as Kylo Ren appears to be an open secret. Ren is clearly not happy about following in Vader's footsteps but does it simply because he feels he has no other choice. As mentioned, he seemed clear that he'd be disfigured by Rey which would shove him further down the Vader path, giving him a reason to wear the mask -- even if it's not nearly the same as why Vader wore is. Then Ren shows up in TLJ and everything feels off. The sense of institutional conflict is gone, replaced by Hux's own brand of megalomania and this weird sense of them competing for Daddy Snoke's approval. Ren can suddenly hold his own against all but two of Snoke's guards. Snoke himself is far more critical and angry of Ben losing his fight despite, only minutes ago, going on about how he needs to finish his training. Why is it a sign of Ren's weakness and not Rey's strength? Snoke flat out states that the Force empowered Rey to fight the dark side. She's not exactly a novice who had never handled a lightsaber before. Anyway, Ren fails to pull the trigger on Leia and his wingmen do it anyway, which is fine, but he then has no idea whether she survived or not and nothing comes of it. When presented with the opportunity to throw the past aside and let it die, he instead takes Snoke's place as Supreme Leader and commits to leading the First Order. He destroys his mask and helmet, which is fine as is Snoke's treatment of it as a joke, but it feels like a character beat that's happened way too early. Ren never struck me as particularly competent in the first film, and that's fine, because it seemed clear that the second film would involve both him and Rey becoming more dangerous. But then he just kind of is, and what little character he had in the first film is twisted to being weirdly unrecognizable. The changes are especially glaring because TLJ picks up only a few minutes or hours after the end of TFA. It's similar to how the ST EU builds up Ren as this actual First Order Warlord with territory he administrates and other bullshit. It's one of those things where it feels like the ST has actively misunderstood their best character, or perhaps simply didn't understand what made him interesting in the first place. Kind of like how TFA seems to indicate that Ren left the Jedi Academy and then came back with the black suits and the masks and the red lightsaber and killed everyone and burnt it down. That's a very different character to what TLJ presents. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 06:32
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