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iospace posted:Please explain what you mean by this. I'm curious now. If a successful coach continues to be successful while covering up abuses, the idea of what the institute is that is built during that time can get solidified long before any blowback comes.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:02
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Lessail posted:If a successful coach continues to be successful while covering up abuses, the idea of what the institute is that is built during that time can get solidified long before any blowback comes. So in other words, what we saw with Penn State and Baylor where the fans felt they were attacked in this whole thing?
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Aug 31, 2018 21:03
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iospace posted:So in other words, what we saw with Penn State and Baylor where the fans felt they were attacked in this whole thing? Well it's more that people can think "Penn State is back" that I'm getting at.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:07
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iospace posted:So in other words, what we saw with Penn State and Baylor where the fans felt they were attacked in this whole thing? Like to clear it up some more. What you said here: iospace posted:e: I know someone is going to come in and go "What about Penn State then?" Joe Pa should have been stripped of all wins since Sandusky started his camp, all bowl wins and any national titles stripped, and none of that should have been ever given back to PSU or JoePa, period. Still happened. Penn State still grew and benefited from those things happening even if you remove the win from a database.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:21
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Lessail posted:Like to clear it up some more. What you said here: So basically, now that I stepped away to grind some coffee and thought about it for a few minutes, you're saying that people are going to go to the school to spite those who say you shouldn't because of the coverup?
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Aug 31, 2018 21:25
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Getting sexually assaulted to own the libs.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:30
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iospace posted:So basically, now that I stepped away to grind some coffee and thought about it for a few minutes, you're saying that people are going to go to the school to spite those who say you shouldn't because of the coverup? No, I'm saying that they're going to go to the school because there's still an idea of what the school is that was built on the back of the cover up.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:33
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iospace posted:So basically, now that I stepped away to grind some coffee and thought about it for a few minutes, you're saying that people are going to go to the school to spite those who say you shouldn't because of the coverup? He’s saying that taking away titles and wins doesn’t mean anything. They still happened, most aren’t gonna care that they aren’t in an official record book.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:He’s saying that taking away titles and wins doesn’t mean anything. They still happened, most aren’t gonna care that they aren’t in an official record book. I know. I don't feel right though, personally, punishing students and athletes for poo poo they didn't do. And I understand some people probably did go to MSU under the pretense that the university was better than that, and people will continue to do so, unfortunately.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:44
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CharlestheHammer posted:He’s saying that taking away titles and wins doesn’t mean anything. They still happened, most aren’t gonna care that they aren’t in an official record book. Well I'm saying a bit more than that. There were recruits, facilities, airtime, money that all came as a result of continuing to win by not properly dealing with what happened. The wins were reinstated thanks to the prestige gained during the coverup.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:46
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iospace posted:I know. I don't feel right though, personally, punishing students and athletes for poo poo they didn't do. And I understand some people probably did go to MSU under the pretense that the university was better than that, and people will continue to do so, unfortunately. Punishment of anything bigger than one person is gonna effect others, maybe even innocent people. You have to accept that or just not bother doing anything.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:52
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CharlestheHammer posted:Punishment of anything bigger than one person is gonna effect others, maybe even innocent people. You do realize that some of Nassars victims could still be attending, right? So let's punish them, again.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:57
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CharlestheHammer posted:Punishment of anything bigger than one person is gonna effect others, maybe even innocent people. What? Our legal system is built on the idea that it is far more important to let guilty people go than punish an innocent. "You gotta hurt innocents to maybe hurt guilty people" is total garbage.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:02
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Doing nothing also punishes other schools/institutions
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Aug 31, 2018 22:03
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Lockback posted:What? Our legal system is built on the idea that it is far more important to let guilty people go than punish an innocent. "You gotta hurt innocents to maybe hurt guilty people" is total garbage. My big issue here is that Nassar was fired in 2016. It's well within the realm of possibility that some of his victims may still be attending, and bringing down the hammer on them leaves a completely gross taste in my mouth.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:04
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Lockback posted:What? Our legal system is built on the idea that it is far more important to let guilty people go than punish an innocent. "You gotta hurt innocents to maybe hurt guilty people" is total garbage. I suppose we shouldn't enforce laws against a company that forces it to shut down then
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Aug 31, 2018 22:04
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Everything is now too big to fail
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Aug 31, 2018 22:06
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Lessail posted:I suppose we shouldn't enforce laws against a company that forces it to shut down then So again, I ask you, after the NCAA sat on their rear end after Baylor happened, what did you expect them to do here? You knew full well nothing would happen. Should they have done something? Yeah, ban everyone involved in the coverup. They won't though because it's not a money issue.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:06
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iospace posted:So again, I ask you, after the NCAA sat on their rear end after Baylor happened, what did you expect them to do here? You knew full well nothing would happen. Should they have done something? Yeah, ban everyone involved in the coverup. They won't though because it's not a money issue. It's more that they won't because it is a money issue
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Aug 31, 2018 22:08
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Lessail posted:It's more that they won't because it is a money issue How is this a money issue?
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Aug 31, 2018 22:09
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Lockback posted:What? Our legal system is built on the idea that it is far more important to let guilty people go than punish an innocent. "You gotta hurt innocents to maybe hurt guilty people" is total garbage. That isn’t really true or there would be no laws. It’s literally unavoidable. SEC busts a company doing lovely things and fines them to oblivion? Well you are now punishing a ton of people who worked for the company, who most likely had nothing to do with their bosses lovely practices. Punishment of anything bigger than one person is gonna effect others you can’t avoid that. You can say that argument is silly to make and to broad a definition of punishing the innocent but that is where we are. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 22:09
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iospace posted:How is this a money issue? Well, for starters, if harsher punishments start coming from the ncaa the bigger schools might begin to think the ncaa isn't needed anymore
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Aug 31, 2018 22:12
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Lessail posted:Well, for starters, if harsher punishments start coming from the ncaa the bigger schools might begin to think the ncaa isn't needed anymore Let me rephrase this. How was what Michigan State did, covering up and failing to act on the sexual abuse by Larry Nassar, a money issue?
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Aug 31, 2018 22:37
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CharlestheHammer posted:That isn’t really true or there would be no laws. It’s literally unavoidable. Yes, because a corporation is the same thing as a public education institution.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:41
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iospace posted:Yes, because a corporation is the same thing as a public education institution. I mean yeah they are especially modern universities but let’s get more personal If you commit a murder but have a wife and child, would not punishing you also be punishing them? The kid loses a father and the wife loses her husband and an income source, which could lead to instability. You literally can not punish one person and have it only effect that person. Every action is going to have an unattended effect. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 22:46
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CharlestheHammer posted:I mean yeah they are especially modern universities but let’s get more personal iospace posted:My big issue here is that Nassar was fired in 2016. It's well within the realm of possibility that some of his victims may still be attending, and bringing down the hammer on them leaves a completely gross taste in my mouth. So you're telling me that you want the victims to be punished now. Lovely.
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Aug 31, 2018 22:58
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iospace posted:So you're telling me that you want the victims to be punished now. Lovely. Sigh, you have no real interest in engaging what I’ve said do you. You just want to be self righteous. Well you do you.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:00
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CharlestheHammer posted:Sigh, you have no real interest in engaging what I’ve said do you. You just want to be self righteous. Well you do you. So are you. You want to go "there's no one that escapes punishment here!" when we know full well that the organization in question that we want punishment from was going to go "no punishment" from the outset. You can froth at the mouth or you can boycott the NCAA sports. Meanwhile Lessail is saying that everyone who goes to MSU after this point is now complicit with the coverup because ~reasons~. This isn't loving Baylor, this is a situation where the athletes were the victims, not the perpetrators. (full disclosure: I fully believe that Baylor should have gotten the death penalty. MSU I do not believe should)
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Aug 31, 2018 23:04
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iospace posted:Meanwhile Lessail is saying that everyone who goes to MSU after this point is now complicit with the coverup because ~reasons~. That's not what I've said at all
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Aug 31, 2018 23:05
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Lessail posted:That's not what I've said at all Ok, let me rephrase that: Lessail posted:No, I'm saying that they're going to go to the school because there's still an idea of what the school is that was built on the back of the cover up. You pretty much are lumping EVERYONE who went to MSU after this story broke as being foolish or believing that the school is still good despite this, despite me presenting plenty of other reasons for going to the school that had absolutely zero reason to do with the integrity of the school.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:07
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Lessail posted:That's not what I've said at all It’s okay he’s just flailing about at this point just disengage. He isn’t interested in arguments at this point. He has made up his mind and won’t listen to anything else.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:07
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s okay he’s just flailing about at this point just disengage. He isn’t interested in arguments at this point. For the record, she. And neither are you, I'm presenting arguments and you're going "BUT EVERYONE GETS PUNISHED  "But if you want to disengage, sure. I'm done if you both are.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:08
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iospace posted:Ok, let me rephrase that: The whole point was that an institution can gain enough benefits during a cover up that it can withstand the blowback when it all comes to light. Penn State as a football school didn't go away and the benefits it gained were used to recover and extract concessions from the body that initially punished it. So if MSU gained benefits of being affiliated with US Gymnastics through Nasar, it takes a lot to wipe away what it gained.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:23
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Lessail posted:The whole point was that an institution can gain enough benefits during a cover up that it can withstand the blowback when it all comes to light. Penn State as a football school didn't go away and the benefits it gained were used to recover and extract concessions from the body that initially punished it. So if MSU gained benefits of being affiliated with US Gymnastics through Nasar, it takes a lot to wipe away what it gained. That actually makes sense when you say it like that. Thanks. That said, here's what I want to have happen now: The NCAA passes a bylaw that allows them to show-cause people who enable and cover these situations up. I thought they show-caused Briles but they didn't (he's so toxic now though that he effectively was). That's assuming they don't have the rule to do so.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:29
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iospace posted:For the record, she. Sigh I will rengage if you address even one of my points and not handwave them away as they cause your entire point to collapse. Like not one of your last four points addressed to me have actually contained an argument. Explain how the example I gave is wrong if your so interested in arguing. I can’t engage something that doesn’t exist.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:36
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CharlestheHammer posted:Sigh I will rengage if you address even one of my points and not handwave them away as they cause your entire point to collapse. You said even innocents get punished by the guilty party being punished by collateral damage, per se. I pointed out that the innocents in this case also include the victims, and I don't like that fact they also may get "punished" in this situation, and thus I can't support any broad stroke punishment. You did not counter this specific point or address it. I would like you to do so.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:39
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iospace posted:You said even innocents get punished by the guilty party being punished by collateral damage, per se. I pointed out that the innocents in this case also include the victims, and I don't like that fact they also may get "punished" in this situation, and thus I can't support any broad stroke punishment. You did not counter this specific point or address it. I would like you to do so. Okay? Literally any punishment is going to end up “punishing” the victims unless you either do nothing or specifically avoid punishing the programs that participated in the problem. Even then you can’t control how the university will react, maybe punishing them themselves out of anger at the inconvenience. I didn’t address it as it’s meaningless. Granted this still doesn’t really have much to do with what I said so I guess it’s your turn.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:53
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One last thing so we're on the same page: what punishment do you want the NCAA to do? e: and what would, ideally, this punishment accomplish (if it's anything beyond "making an example of the program")? iospace fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 23:59
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iospace posted:One last thing so we're on the same page: what punishment do you want the NCAA to do? The death penalty would be ideal, force them to basically restart the program from scratch like SMU was forced to do. It’s the easiest way to fix the program.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:53
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CharlestheHammer posted:The death penalty would be ideal, force them to basically restart the program from scratch like SMU was forced to do. It’s the easiest way to fix the program. Even with all the people involved with the coverup fired at this point (I believe at this point that is the case, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here)? The followup I have now: would you allow the program to be restarted immediately with fresh personnel, or would you require it to be restarted down the line, because the problem here is if you don't require a restart date, they're going to use that to axe the program wholesale and never bring it back.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:58
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