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Calling Cinemascore scientific seems fairly generous. It’s a small sample of a small set of markets on opening weekend. That’s not a representative sample of the total audience for a movie. Note that Death of a Nation, an incredibly bad and divisive movie, has an A on Cinemascore.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:02
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Calling Cinemascore scientific seems fairly generous. It’s a small sample of a small set of markets on opening weekend. That’s not a representative sample of the total audience for a movie. Not to defend Cinemascore's methodology, but think about who's going to actually go see that movie. Obviously it's a very bad tool for determining how good a movie actually is.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:04
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Yeah all these aggregator sites follow some sort of weird and arbitrary metric because they’ve yet to invent an app that can actually replicate basic human literacy.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:07
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BTW, SMG you never addressed my point about Vader.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:08
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I suppose we won't know for sure until Episode IX comes out.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:10
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porfiria posted:Not to defend Cinemascore's methodology, but think about who's going to actually go see that movie. Obviously it's a very bad tool for determining how good a movie actually is. Right, that’s the point. It’s a measure of a very specific set of people with a specific set of expectations. That holds true of every movie Cinemascore rates. It’s not a measure of how well liked a movie is generally, months or more after its release.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:13
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Beyond the movies, if you look at something like the reaction to the new cartoon the Clone Wars guy is doing, I think it's been markedly negative as well. Now, I remember both Clone Wars and Rebels getting a ton of poo poo heaped on them before they came out (in both cases because people thought they looked "too kiddy") even though most people came around to liking them, but there wasn't a broader narrative for that to feed into at the time (as there is now) so it never really made much of an impression.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:20
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Now we've decided we're never going to get a scientific measurement of how good a movie is can we stop having this stupid loving argument?
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Sep 1, 2018 00:20
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Right, that’s the point. It’s a measure of a very specific set of people with a specific set of expectations. That holds true of every movie Cinemascore rates. It’s not a measure of how well liked a movie is generally, months or more after its release. Well apropos of something like TLJ, everyone saw it so it's a bit less specific. Maybe the general public's opinion of it has curdled but I'd guess the general public has not given the movie a single solitary thought since December. Broad indifference is likely to be the sequel trilogy's lasting legacy. Maybe the current crop of kids will really attach to it but I think Marvel has a lot of those feelings sewn up, such as they are.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:21
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cargohills posted:Now we've decided we're never going to get a scientific measurement of how good a movie is can we stop having this stupid loving argument? criticker tells me I would give it a 4/10, so uh, qed chumps
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Sep 1, 2018 00:44
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Mantis42 posted:Movie critics are loving dumb. Like, regardless of your opinion on TLJ, we're a long way from the days of Pauline Kael and Roger Ebert. The biggest problem is too many critics today refuse to engage with fantasy or the fantastical almost at all----unless it's something like Guillermo del Toro's brand of "magical realism" and thus they can rest assured of not looking like "manchildren" for seriously dissecting, say, a Civil War. Whereas whatever you thought about Roger Ebert, the dude was game to engage with basically anything. Watch his and Ebert's review of Ghost in the Shell, for ex. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il2l3hEEtdk Like, you take a guy like Matthew Zoller-Zeitsz or whatever his name is. He may be very thoughtful in approaching a Lady Bird or a Grand Budapest Hotel, but you see his Marvel reviews and it's extremely condescending "yeah I slept through half of it kids seemed happy 9/10" Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 00:50
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Calling Cinemascore scientific seems fairly generous. It’s a small sample of a small set of markets on opening weekend. That’s not a representative sample of the total audience for a movie. Being loved by the people who saw it (which I'm sure Death of a Nation was) doesn't mean something's a good film, but I was specifically responding to the idea that TLJ was unpopular with audiences. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 01:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yeah all these aggregator sites follow some sort of weird and arbitrary metric because they’ve yet to invent an app that can actually replicate basic human literacy. A powerful self-own
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Sep 1, 2018 01:30
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porfiria posted:Well apropos of something like TLJ, everyone saw it so it's a bit less specific. Not everyone saw it on opening weekend though. The folks that turn up to Star Wars movies on the first weekend are a distinct population to those who have eventually seen Star Wars movies. Irony Be My Shield posted:Samples are always going to be a small subset of a total population - that doesn't mean they're not scientific or representative. The important thing is that they're selected without bias. Again, as above, the bias is in the selection. Opening weekend viewers in exclusively large metropolitan markets in America aren’t necessarily representative the broader population that sees a movie, especially a Star Wars movie that is seen by basically everyone everywhere eventually.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:59
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RBA Starblade posted:A powerful self-own lol
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Sep 1, 2018 02:01
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RBA Starblade posted:A powerful self-own Okay this is a good one
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Sep 1, 2018 02:16
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Sep 1, 2018 02:57
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I’m not an application and I don’t strive to be basic or human.Mantis42 posted:BTW, SMG you never addressed my point about Vader. Star Wars isn’t a 1:1 translation of the Bible, given that Jesus wasn’t a war hero, or a father of two and so-on. Lucas’ point with Anakin is that he is the incarnation of the wrathful, petulant, Old Testament God. This is the God of massacres and if turning women into pillars of salt and so-forth. Anakin dies for his own sins, as you put it, at the end of Episode 3. Now, people tend to conflate Anakin and Vader, assuming that Vader’s spent 20 years all stomping on babies or whatever. But Anakin was prone to committing massacres because of his pathological attachment to his mother and (consequently) to Padme. This attachment was burnt out of his psyche in the pit of fire. Vader does not commit massacres. He only attacks Alliance targets. Of course he’s a bad guy, but Vader’s flaw in Episode 4 is not that he is too violent but that he’s actually holding himself back, not choking all the regional governors and opposing Tarkin. He’s wavering in his ethics. This limitation is symbolized by his reliance on the targeting computer. Immediately after Episode 4 is when Vader becomes unleashed, and from that point onwards he is acting as a revolutionary.
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Sep 1, 2018 04:35
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I like how this thread has to go through a derail every other page of whether TLJ was good or not lol
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Sep 1, 2018 04:45
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It was bad but it had good aspects. Anyways, I can see a bit of what you mean. Vader is trying to overthrow the Emperor in 5, though he seems resigned to his bondage in 6, up until he sees Luke being tortured(?). But what's the revolution here, wouldn't that just be a coup? How would the Darth Vader of Episode 5 ruling "the galaxy as father as son" be any different from the Emperor?
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Sep 1, 2018 04:48
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Raccooon posted:I like how this thread has to go through a derail every other page of whether TLJ was good or not lol It was good
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Sep 1, 2018 04:50
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PostNouveau posted:It was good *pushes glasses up nose* "well according to this scientific polling..."
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Sep 1, 2018 05:14
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Raccooon posted:I like how this thread has to go through a derail every other page of whether TLJ was good or not lol seems to me it's more that the derails are to do with people consulting outside forces (pablo hidalgo, rotten tomatoes, etc) to do the thinking for them it's definitely weird thoughts, the thread Mantis42 posted:It was bad but it had good aspects. I honestly don't know if "revolution" and "coup" is a distinction with a big enough difference in this context
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Sep 1, 2018 12:35
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Mantis42 posted:How would the Darth Vader of Episode 5 ruling "the galaxy as father as son" be any different from the Emperor? The ‘and son’ part. Luke’s not just some guy. In Episode 5, Luke has split off from the Liberal-Republican Alliance and is leading his own group of freedom fighters. Vader is proposing that the leftists on both sides of the civil war unite against the emperor (who, it bears repeating, is Space Satan). Go back to the prequels, and you get much elaboration on what this means via the harsh criticism of the Republic. Anakin was (made into) a fascist, but he was also the kid who dreamed not only of freeing the slaves but of building a system that would protect the weakest. Hence creating C3PO to help his mom, to suffer in solidarity with her. “We seem to be made to suffer. It's our lot in life.” Even later, Anakin is talking about compassion and is highly critical of the liberal democracy: Anakin: “We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem. Agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and do it.” Padme: "That's exactly what they do, the trouble is that people don't always agree." Anakin: "Then they should be made to." Padme: "By whom? Who's going to make them?" People focus on craaazy fascist Anakin talking about dictatorship here, and ignore that Padme’s responses to him are horribly inadequate defences of the obviously-bad status quo. She’s making excuses for how the system doesn’t actually work - a system that literally serves Space Satan, and is about to declare war on the Space Mideast. Padme can’t conceive of power to the people. In fact, she seems to treat the politicians and the people as synonymous. “Who should have power over the politicians?”, she’s saying, like she considers the idea ridiculous. Neither she nor Anakin can conceive of the proletariat being in charge.
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Sep 1, 2018 13:35
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Sep 1, 2018 22:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The ‘and son’ part. Luke’s not just some guy. In Episode 5, Luke has split off from the Liberal-Republican Alliance and is leading his own group of freedom fighters. Vader is proposing that the leftists on both sides of the civil war unite against the emperor (who, it bears repeating, is Space Satan). 1) Where does Anakin slaughtering the sand children because some of their people's actions against his mother fall into your reading? 2) Where does everything about Tatooine that we see in the original trilogy factor into your reading? It's not just that Vader fails to free the slaves on Tatooine, but he ignores Tatooine to an absurd degree. Luke is not hidden from Vader in any shape or form. His surname is not only preserved, but he is raised by known relatives to Vader. Obi-Wan uses Vader's complete indifference to the planet as the only disguise necessary.
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Sep 2, 2018 00:18
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The prequels absolutely fail to explain Vader's motivation in any reasonable way and raise way more questions than they answer.
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Sep 2, 2018 00:21
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Timeless Appeal posted:I have two questions for you and they're legitimately not intended to be snide or pedantic. I'm actually curious. 1) Where does Anakin slaughtering the sand children because some of their people's actions against his mother fall into your reading? “Lucas’ point with Anakin is that he is the incarnation of the wrathful, petulant, Old Testament God. This is the God of massacres and if turning women into pillars of salt and so-forth. Anakin dies for his own sins ... at the end of Episode 3.” Yahweh killed kids all the time. Just ask the pharoah! 2) Where does everything about Tatooine that we see in the original trilogy factor into your reading? It's not just that Vader fails to free the slaves on Tatooine, but he ignores Tatooine to an absurd degree. Luke is not hidden from Vader in any shape or form. His surname is not only preserved, but he is raised by known relatives to Vader. Obi-Wan uses Vader's complete indifference to the planet as the only disguise necessary. Luke’s name was hidden when he was adopted; he was raised as Luke Lars just like his sister was raised as Leia Organa. At some point later in his teens, Luke found out that he was adopted, and that’s why he’s so excited to announce that he’s Luke SKYWALKER (and he’s here to rescue you). The Lars family are not relatives of Vader. They are relatives of Anakin, which is a major difference. Even if you don’t make the distinction, Vader certainly does. It’s not that Vader is indifferent to Tatooine. It’s that he is thinking big picture: first he is busy defending the Empire (as it is the apotheosis of the Republic and the will of the dark God) and then, after Episode 4, he’s attempting to bring about a true universal democracy that is by definition inclusive of Tatooine.
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Sep 2, 2018 02:04
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Vader isn't a leftist. He's an authoritarian. He's the ultimate repressive father figure. He wants to control everything and make it the way he wants it to be. That's why he slaughters the Sand People. Their entire cultural existence is getting in the way of what he perceives to be justice. He commits a genocidal act because of authoritarian ideological tendencies informing an impulsive, emotion-driven response to a highly traumatic event. The Republic reacts the same way when one of their own is taken hostage by an opposing political faction, impulsively foisting authoritarian powers upon the Chancellor and launching a full-scale war in a frenzy of fear. They're parallel stories. Vader isn't interested in giving power to the people. There's no indication in any of the films that this is what he's after. He starts out with the naive intention of helping people, but his controlling personality and increasing reliance on negative emotions cause him to do the exact opposite of that, the same way he starts out with the good intention of saving his wife but ends up strangling her to within an inch of her life because she won't do what he wants her to do. This becomes a recurring pattern for Vader, strangling people because they refuse to act as extensions of his own will. We never see him actually helping anybody. Instead, he stands by as billions of people are murdered in an act of state terrorism, and then works actively to oppose the revolutionaries who are seeking to destroy the instrument of this planetary genocide. We never see him freeing any slaves. Instead, he casually gives aid to a slave-holding rapist so that he can intentionally induce the same unbearable emotional distress in his son that he himself once felt for his brutalized mother, all as a means to lure his son into a trap and use him as a mere tool to aid in his own ambitions of greater power. His son refuses, so he angrily castrates him and then threatens to murder him if he won't do as he says. Great guy, this Vader. A real role model.
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Sep 2, 2018 02:16
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This owns.
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Sep 2, 2018 02:39
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Vader hates Tatooine. There's nothing but sand there. He sends his subordinates down there rather than personally see to the recovery of the Death Star plans, which he considers highly important. After purging the Jedi but before fighting Obi-Wan, his intention was to use Palpatine to take over the Empire, and then put Padme in charge of it. He never trusts himself to be in charge, knowing himself to be the kind of person who commits massacres. He has the strength to change the galaxy by force, and he wants to put someone else in charge of it. Once inside the suit, he no longer has that strength, since Palpatine can kill him instantly. Nor can he see any hope for his own liberation, because Palpatine literally controls what he sees.
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Sep 2, 2018 02:48
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There’s a lot of confusing Anakin with Vader, but the reading of Vader as a new ethical subject begins with the mask.The similarity here being the birth of God as Jesus Christ the man - The incarnation of God as a new ethical subject, a God who suffers from an engaged subjective position. The reading of Luke redeeming his biological father by reaching the inner good beneath the mask of Vader is one of the broader satirical points of the prequels - where underneath the mask of Vader, we learn, lies the human face of Anakin the Jedi who became a fascist.
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Sep 2, 2018 03:00
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Cnut the Great posted:Vader isn't a leftist. He's an authoritarian. He's the ultimate repressive father figure. He wants to control everything and make it the way he wants it to be. That's why he slaughters the Sand People. The start of your post is already objectively false. Besides that Anakin and Vader are different characters, Anakin is extremely submissive. Recall this exchange: Padme: "By whom? Who's going to make them?" Padme: "You?" Anakin: "Of course not me!" Padme: "Then someone...?" Anakin: "Someone wise." You need to be careful; Anakin is unambiguously referring to Padme. She is his ideal dictator; the goal of his life is to realize her disavowed fantasies.
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Sep 2, 2018 03:15
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Anakin and Vader are the same person.
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Sep 2, 2018 03:36
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I'm kinda down with what SMG is saying, except if Vader was a revolutionary from Episode 5, why did he need to so much convincing in 6? He waited until his arm was cut off and Luke was being fried to kill the Emperor.
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Sep 2, 2018 03:41
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I didn’t like TLJ or solo, but I’ll still see all the upcoming star war movies without a doubt or hesitation. I came to this thread looking for point by point discussions about those films. I read every single page. Every post. What a terrible thread this is. Worse than solo or TLJ
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Sep 2, 2018 03:45
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Cnut the Great posted:Vader isn't a leftist. He's an authoritarian. These two categories are not mutually exclusive.
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Sep 2, 2018 03:46
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sponges posted:Anakin and Vader are the same person. actually i have this placemat that shows anakin and vader existing at the same time, therefore
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Sep 2, 2018 04:22
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SMG if Vader and Anakin are actually different characters, are we to assume there is actually a Vader force ghost too?
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Sep 2, 2018 04:29
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Mantis42 posted:I'm kinda down with what SMG is saying, except if Vader was a revolutionary from Episode 5, why did he need to so much convincing in 6? He waited until his arm was cut off and Luke was being fried to kill the Emperor. It’s not that Vader needed convincing but that Luke had regressed. No longer a freedom fighter, Luke in Episode 6 has rejoined the Republican Alliance and has rejected the painful truth in favour of Obiwan’s weak postmodern relativism. MrMojok posted:SMG if Vader and Anakin are actually different characters, are we to assume there is actually a Vader force ghost too? Vader’s ghost is the Holy Spirit. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Sep 2, 2018 |
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Sep 2, 2018 04:30
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