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Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Alhazred posted:

poo poo like that is one of the most frustrating thing about working in daycare. Running around is educational.

I learned not to run on the pool deck. The bloody knee was very educational

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poopinmymouth
Mar 2, 2005

PROUD 2 B AMERICAN (these colors don't run)

learnincurve posted:

Scandinavian countries in general have far more of a common sense approach don’t they?


This came from Steve Biddul's book "Raising Babies" and I'm recounting from memory so I am not sure how accurate it is, but his bit on Sweden and their policies went like this.

Back when there was a debate on whether group care was harmful or not, the childcare industry was pushing the idea that the problem wasn't group care, but "quality group care". Sweden set up an experiment where at home parenting was compared with "high quality group care" with a good adult to child ratio and lots of training or diplomas for the staff. Even with the most ideal scenario, a child that received 60-90 minutes of direct eye to eye contact a day at home received about 8 minutes in group care. To get the adult ratio up to what it would take to get that higher number would cost far more than just paying for paternity pay, which is why they chose that route.

The average American child goes into group care at 2 weeks. According to this book, having such a non-ideal upbringing in those formative years can actually retard brain development that never recovers. I personally believe there is some connection to how lovely paternity pay (lol it's maternity leave, both words worse than the ideal) is and other problems in society, because this time is just so important for the bonding of parents, the development of the child, and poo poo, work is just not that important of a concept to prioritize otherwise.

Here in Iceland it's less than ideal but still better than stateside. Each parent gets 3 months paid at 80% their previous years' average, and another 3 months to split. So both parents can take 4.5 months at the same time, or one parent 6 months and the other 3. The money is paid by the state, not the companies you might have worked for previously. Gender participation is still lopsided, but tons of men I know have taken paternity leave, and Iceland is routinely #1 for gender equality. Personally I think this much higher rate of men participating in the early years of childcare do a lot to address the other ways toxic masculinity/patriarchy manifest in the states (lower pay gap here, more female politicians and managers, less slut shaming, less walled off careers by gender, etc).

Slanderer
May 6, 2007

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

If I was making guesses I’d bet the gym is the cafeteria or something and a 13 year old has decided they are a genius who is bringing down the system by complaining to their dad that the nazi school they go to can’t even run in the gym (during lunchtime)

If I was making guesses, I'd bet that you're an idiot.

Dameius
Apr 3, 2006

Owlofcreamcheese
May 22, 2005
Probation
Can't post for 9 years!
Buglord

That is way under minimum wage to watch a neighbor's child. Wasn't the genesis of this whole conversation being mad at someone wishing their childcare was lower than minimum wage?

learnincurve
May 15, 2014

Smoosh
Although I agree with the stuff poopinmymouth posted about Iceland I fundamentally disagree with Steve Biddulph on a number of things. :colbert:

His premise is flawed, he talks about eye contact but fails to take into account that children make eye contact with each other. It’s actually quite simple, if children from 6 days to 16 don’t spend enough time with adults then it stunts their interpersonal skills in one way, and if they don’t spend enough time with other children before they are four then it means they have a dreadful time when they start school and it’s something they may never recover from.

Never ever let people make you feel bad about sending your children to daycare, it sucks balls not having a choice about being away from them but the social skills they learn there is a good thing if it’s just you staying at home with them then find as many playgroups or activities with a crèche as you can :)

RagnarokZ
May 14, 2004

Emperor of the Internet

learnincurve posted:

Although I agree with the stuff poopinmymouth posted about Iceland I fundamentally disagree with Steve Biddulph on a number of things. :colbert:

His premise is flawed, he talks about eye contact but fails to take into account that children make eye contact with each other. It’s actually quite simple, if children from 6 days to 16 don’t spend enough time with adults then it stunts their interpersonal skills in one way, and if they don’t spend enough time with other children before they are four then it means they have a dreadful time when they start school and it’s something they may never recover from.

Never ever let people make you feel bad about sending your children to daycare, it sucks balls not having a choice about being away from them but the social skills they learn there is a good thing if it’s just you staying at home with them then find as many playgroups or activities with a crèche as you can :)

You're not the one who had to chase his bloody niece around the goddamn woods earlier today, little poo poo's loving fast and she's got a much easier time getting through a Danish forest than a 186 cm tall will ever have.


I had to bribe her to get her out of there.

nepetaMisekiryoiki
Jun 13, 2018

人造人間集中する碇

RagnarokZ posted:

You're not the one who had to chase his bloody niece around the goddamn woods earlier today, little poo poo's loving fast and she's got a much easier time getting through a Danish forest than a 186 cm tall will ever have.


I had to bribe her to get her out of there.

Haha, and this is how running around is real educational.

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 22, 2006




nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:

Haha, and this is how running around is real educational.

Bribery is an essential parenting skill.

learnincurve
May 15, 2014

Smoosh
I had pink castles with magnetic fairy stickers.

ToxicSlurpee
Nov 5, 2003

-=SEND HELP=-


Pillbug

Alhazred posted:

poo poo like that is one of the most frustrating thing about working in daycare. Running around is educational.

Yeah that's just the thing. Kids are supposed to, you know, do kid stuff. Running around in circles waving your arms around and spouting nonsense is an integral part of being a kid. It's weird to think back to childhood and realize that there were people going "no, none of that." My grandparents and teachers who understood that were like yeah they do that. Of course they do, they're children.

It was when I was in high school that you started hearing about recess going away, parents who carefully controlled play time, or oh no little Timmy can't get even the tiniest bit dirty, ever! Children are supposed to get dirty and run around like idiots.

Instead now we have so many parents being all like "I've decided my child will be a doctor and demand that all of his activities prepare him for that." Educational videos exist for children who can't even talk and that is insane.

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 22, 2006




ToxicSlurpee posted:

Children are supposed to get dirty and run around like idiots.

Bringing it back around to the thread topic there is a retail segment that basically sells this in richer areas.

DR FRASIER KRANG
Feb 4, 2005

"Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?
My kid would make a super lovely doctor.

eyebeem
Jul 18, 2013

by R. Guyovich

BrandorKP posted:

Bringing it back around to the thread topic there is a retail segment that basically sells this in richer areas.

It's one of the only use cases for empty big box locations that seems to be profitable.

We have several indoor play area things nearby and they all appear to be doing well

SpaceCadetBob
Dec 27, 2012

eyebeem posted:

It's one of the only use cases for empty big box locations that seems to be profitable.

We have several indoor play area things nearby and they all appear to be doing well

Heck yea, a couple trampoline parks have opened in my area lately and they have time set aside for under 5 years old so you can let your toddler go hog without worrying they will get run over by a teenager. poo poo, one of them does 90 minutes for $10 which for the area is pretty decent. Great for those 90 degree days that make the park a nonstarter.

eyebeem
Jul 18, 2013

by R. Guyovich
The really kickass one by us is super expensive, but has a killer obstacle course and is always in great shape. I take my 10 year old there on saturdays for 90 minutes to get him some intense exercise. I believe it’s $35/90min but it’s the only thing I’ve found that will get him to go all out for that long so it’s worth it.

DR FRASIER KRANG
Feb 4, 2005

"Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?
I have three adult acquaintances who have absolutely wrecked their ankle(s) at one of those places.

The Maroon Hawk
May 10, 2008

The one I went to in Denver has trampoline dodgeball, it owns

Cicero
Dec 17, 2003

Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Yeah that's just the thing. Kids are supposed to, you know, do kid stuff. Running around in circles waving your arms around and spouting nonsense is an integral part of being a kid. It's weird to think back to childhood and realize that there were people going "no, none of that." My grandparents and teachers who understood that were like yeah they do that. Of course they do, they're children.

It was when I was in high school that you started hearing about recess going away, parents who carefully controlled play time, or oh no little Timmy can't get even the tiniest bit dirty, ever! Children are supposed to get dirty and run around like idiots.

Instead now we have so many parents being all like "I've decided my child will be a doctor and demand that all of his activities prepare him for that." Educational videos exist for children who can't even talk and that is insane.
This is why we loved having our son in a forest kindergarten in Germany, even if the theme of the kindergarten was pretty racist.

Beachcomber
May 21, 2007

Another day in paradise.


Slippery Tilde
Arbeit Macht Frei?

Freakazoid_
Jul 5, 2013


Buglord
If only Discovery Zone has made their venues outside.

there wolf
Jan 11, 2015

by Fluffdaddy

i am harry posted:

You don't really appreciate the idea of "universal pre-k" until you are a working adult with a 4-year-old.

My cousin took her lovely husband back to court because he wasn't getting their kid to pre-k on time (or at all some days) and there's a limit on how many abscences you can have before the state stops paying for it. Lawyer fees were better than paying for pre-k.

I took a year off to help another cousin with her new baby so she could go back to work, and my totally anecdotal opinion is that parents are really, really risk averse when it comes to their kids and that can spiral without other adults around to challenge them or at least present other norms.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost

there wolf posted:

My cousin took her lovely husband back to court because he wasn't getting their kid to pre-k on time (or at all some days) and there's a limit on how many abscences you can have before the state stops paying for it. Lawyer fees were better than paying for pre-k.

I took a year off to help another cousin with her new baby so she could go back to work, and my totally anecdotal opinion is that parents are really, really risk averse when it comes to their kids and that can spiral without other adults around to challenge them or at least present other norms.

I wonder if this helps to explain anti-vaxxers.

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 22, 2006




Solkanar512 posted:

I wonder if this helps to explain anti-vaxxers.

Most parents will do just about anything to give there kids the best possible shot at life. That can and is definately manipulated. Whole lotta marketing for products and while lotta politics turns around it.

Panfilo
Aug 27, 2011

EXISTENCE IS PAIN😬

BrandorKP posted:

Most parents will do just about anything to give there kids the best possible shot at life. That can and is definately manipulated. Whole lotta marketing for products and while lotta politics turns around it.

We tell people to trust their instincts when it comes to childrearing, but that can backfire horribly when a parent gets fixed on a certain horrible idea and can't be talked down. On the other hand, being a parent gives a lot of people a level of power and control they might not have in their own life, and so while they'll accept being bossed around by their parents, their spouse, and their work, they will draw the line at being bossed around at how they raise their kids. This is also why some horrible parents get so defensive about what they are doing to their kids- they are convinced that if they accept they aren't the best parent then they feel like they have nothing going for them.

ToxicSlurpee
Nov 5, 2003

-=SEND HELP=-


Pillbug

Panfilo posted:

We tell people to trust their instincts when it comes to childrearing, but that can backfire horribly when a parent gets fixed on a certain horrible idea and can't be talked down. On the other hand, being a parent gives a lot of people a level of power and control they might not have in their own life, and so while they'll accept being bossed around by their parents, their spouse, and their work, they will draw the line at being bossed around at how they raise their kids. This is also why some horrible parents get so defensive about what they are doing to their kids- they are convinced that if they accept they aren't the best parent then they feel like they have nothing going for them.

The other side of it is that our society reviles child abusers so it's easy to fall into the trap of "I'm a good person. Good people don't abuse their children. Therefore, what I'm doing is not child abuse." It's also problematic in that parents often treat their children the way they were treated by their own parents. "You instincts" is "this was how I was raised so it must be right" a lot of the time. This is problematic as, well, some people had really, really lovely parents. Corporal punishment has been show to, you know, not be all that good but is still incredibly common. It's easy to get into the trap of "well I was beat regularly with a belt so what's the big idea if I spank hard enough to leave the occasional bruise?"

The Cubelodyte
Sep 1, 2006

Practicing Hypnolaw since 1990
Grimey Drawer

Devor posted:

I learned not to run on the pool deck. The bloody knee was very educational

Same. I'll never forget being able to see my kneecap.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 19 hours!

Raldikuk posted:

Is this actually a thing that exists? Sounds more like some fwfwfwfwfw chain mail poo poo

Not the same thing, but there was recently a minor furor at one of the local high schools near me because they banned dodgeball and running outside on the track in PE class.

They still run laps and sprints in the gym, but only the track team can run outdoors during schooltime.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 19 hours!
Amazon's Market Cap passed $1 Trillion today.

Going to be bonkers to see what they do when they can't keep expanding. I never would have predicted them buying Whole Foods, so who knows.

Shrecknet
Jan 2, 2005


Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Amazon's Market Cap passed $1 Trillion today.

Going to be bonkers to see what they do when they can't keep expanding. I never would have predicted them buying Whole Foods, so who knows.

Make NetRunner real. Weyland and NBN can be Amazon and Google. Let's do this. Build the beanstalk.

prisoner of waffles
May 8, 2007

Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

Elizabeth Mills posted:

Make NetRunner real. Weyland and NBN can be Amazon and Google. Let's do this. Build the beanstalk.

Next floor please: Japan team to test mini ‘space elevator’ in world first

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 22, 2006




Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Going to be bonkers to see what they do when they can't keep expanding. I never would have predicted them buying Whole Foods, so who knows.

There is a hell of a lot they could still expand into, especially on the international logistics side. Bezos has talked about moving into the 3PL/4PL space.

i am harry
Oct 14, 2003

anonumos posted:

I have two little boys under three. My 3yo is in daycare three days a week and the 1yo is there only one day a week. It still costs $600-700 a month and that's considered cheap. It's "only" 12% of my take home pay.

Do you also have the honor of paying them for the weeks that exist in the year but during which they are closed and do not take your children? Because that's my absolute favorite part.

Shrecknet
Jan 2, 2005



No no, Jinteki makes the manual labor slave clones

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

BrandorKP posted:

3PL/4PL space.

why do you nerds use terms like this and expect anyone to know what you're talking about

DR FRASIER KRANG
Feb 4, 2005

"Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?
I think it means “third place” and “fourth place”

I don’t know what a fourth place is but an example of a third place is a book store or cafe.

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 22, 2006




FCKGW posted:

why do you nerds use terms like this and expect anyone to know what you're talking about

One sitting in front of a computer or on a toilet with smart device can look up terms. Third party logistics providers, DHL, UPS, etc. I think I've even written about it earlier in this thread, Amazon becoming a NVOCC suggests this move too. (Non-vessel owning common carrier. )

anonumos
Jul 14, 2005

Fuck it.
https://cerasis.com/2013/08/08/3pl-vs-4pl/



You know how AWS (Amazon Web Services) provides hosting and applications for other people and companies? This suggests they want to start doing the same for physical goods storage and logistics. A while ago companies began to provide physical storage on-demand for other companies, managing the storage and shipping (or at least packaging in preparation for shipping [which was handled by the 2PL companies like UPS and FedEx]) of products that they don't personally own. Amazon already manages an insane amount of storage space for itself and its sellers, so...moving into that realm would really upend a lot of modern commerce (e- or otherwise).

Parakeet vs. Phone
Nov 6, 2009
It's going to be interesting.

UPS apparently announced their own alternative warehouse assistance, which feels like a shot across the bow at Amazon's saber rattling. Plus there are a few other logistics companies that offer similar services.

I'm far from an expert, but FBA (Fulfilled by Amazon) feels like a wobbly leg in Amazon's business. If anyone doesn't know, they let sellers pack and ship cases of products and add them to Amazon's network of warehouses. Amazon then controls where they go, charges a bit for storage and handles packing. It's a huge part of their business and makes up a lot of the physical products you can buy through prime, but it's a weird case of holding a wolf by the ears. I don't really know of any sellers who "like" Amazon. We pretty much all see them as a necessary evil that we would love to see toppled by someone slightly better. There's no hope of them actually improving.

There are massive tax implications that Amazon doesn't warn sellers about, that may be coming home to roost (that's why I bailed on FBA over a year ago). They've basically told sellers to screw off and figure it out themselves. Service is bad and seller support basically doesn't exist. They don't even bother to have grammatically correct scripts for the reps to use. If you have a problem you have to hope it's big enough to warrant the executive team helping you out. They constantly break and lose things (I assume because the packers have to rush through everything and supervisors care more about raw numbers than quality). If it breaks then it's either the seller's problem or Amazon will just pay it, depending on how the algorithm feels. Some of the damage I used to see on items I recalled was appalling. Even bubble wrapping and cardboard spacers don't help, tons of items get ripped apart, bent or crushed. They yell at sellers for using it for long-term storage and charge extra fees for it, then they freak out when everyone runs out of stock and there's a panic at Christmas. And, I could probably keep going for awhile.

I can't imagine them trying to actually run a shipping/logistics service. It would be a clusterfuck that could only survive through venture capital basically funding refunds for all their mistakes. As it is there's still massive customer fraud that they basically just refuse to address. Right now they're just funding a lot of refunds because there's always money around. I get Uber vibes from Amazon sometimes.

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Bar Ran Dun
Jan 22, 2006




Shipping / Logistics is just a cluster gently caress in general. Also the previous trends toward everything becoming more global and more complicated... very much in doubt now with the current administration.

I do know they listed jobs and hired for it.

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