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TheFluff posted:To me those are functionally equivalent terms. What would say the differences are? If löntagarfonderna would have gone through, then the missing piece of worker-owned means of production box would have been ticked. Without that, It's just a sweet deal for workers within a capitalist framework.
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Aug 31, 2018 17:31
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You mean social democracy, surely? TheFluff posted:To me those are functionally equivalent terms. What would say the differences are? If you credit Olof Palme entirely with cementing the Swedish identity you speak of I could understand calling it democratic socialism, but the two are not equivalent. The "nordic model" is usually referred to as being one of social democracy. Basically, social democracy refers to a political ideology occupied with providing equality, welfare and democracy within capitalism, regulating it where necessary. Industry is mostly privately owned, but public and essential services are ostensibly owned by the state. Democratic socialism is a political ideology where you want to have a democratic political system alongside socialism. The goal is to ultimately abolish capitalism and private ownership of industry, but it's not inherent whether you get there by revolution or reform. It's confusing because there's cross-over, but (at least in post-war context) you're headed in different directions. thotsky fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 17:39
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Fair enough, I had completely misunderstood what was meant by the term then and social democracy is what I actually meant.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:34
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Biomute posted:If you credit Olof Palme entirely with cementing the Swedish identity you speak of I could understand calling it democratic socialism, but the two are not equivalent. The "nordic model" is usually referred to as being one of social democracy.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:48
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Cardiac posted:I thought she was controversial due to her sharing on one wrong clip on YouTube?
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Aug 31, 2018 20:33
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evil_bunnY posted:lol controversial with your kind, maybe Was this the incident in question, labelling somalis as low iq social misfits: https://www.voanews.com/a/somali-migrants-protest-video-posted-by-swedish-parliament-member/3320385.html ? That's what my googling came up with at least. You have to excuse my confusion at times, with keeping track of who is sub human racist scum and who isn't...
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Aug 31, 2018 21:11
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Biomute posted:Nah, even if other people are jumping aboard the "immigration-reform" train now it remains a total scapegoat. Populist parties like SD (and, to a certain extent Rødt/V) are making headway because they're addressing that the status quo of neo-liberalism is a bad thing for most people. People on the bottom have seen their chances of upwards mobility stagnate or disappear, and even the middle classes are feeling the pressure. SD and parties like them are doing well because they're at least acknowledging that something is wrong, even if they would rather blame immigrants rather than actually do something about the economic issues (capitalism) that is the underlying cause. There's absolutely a problem with stagnation of upward mobility and the slow dissolution of social safety nets in pursuit of profits , but you are greatly downplaying the negative effects of the migration policy. This isn't about some brown person being rude to you at a club, there are serious issues as a consequence of massive amounts of newcomers. When women feel increased pressure to conform to some bullshit honor culture, when sexual minorities feel unsafe to be open with who they are, and when both these groups feel there is a serious risk to their lives to live the way they want, then that's a big god drat issue that needs to be addressed, not to mention additional pressure on healthcare, social workers, schools and housing, areas already in dire straits because of neoliberalism and dismissing these issues as "relatively minor" is incredibly shortsighted. It is possible to simultaneously acknowledge that A), The migrants are not to blame, B), the migration policy has caused problems that need to be adressed and C) neoliberalism is a far bigger issue and also a big reason B occurred. SplitSoul posted:Agreed, neoliberalism is a cancer
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Aug 31, 2018 21:30
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TheFluff posted:To me those are functionally equivalent terms. What would say the differences are? lmao
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Aug 31, 2018 21:44
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McCloud posted:When women feel increased pressure to conform to some bullshit honor culture, when sexual minorities feel unsafe to be open with who they are, and when both these groups feel there is a serious risk to their lives to live the way they want, then that's a big god drat issue that needs to be addressed And white dudes are super great towards these groups? The people upset about immigrants are not women and LGBT groups, if anything there is significant solidarity between activists from these groups and anti-racists groups. McCloud posted:not to mention additional pressure on healthcare, social workers, schools and housing, areas already in dire straits because of neoliberalism and dismissing these issues as "relatively minor" is incredibly shortsighted. If you are truly able to identify neoliberalism/capitalism as being the prime cause of the state of these services you should also be able to see that doing away with immigration would be the very definition a short-sighted solution. I don't agree with your premise that immigrants constitute an unworkable drain on these resources, but even if doing away with them ended up saving a bit of money in the short run why do you expect that money to go to you? Neoliberalism will continue to march on, services will be slashed and someone will pocket that money. You would end up where you started. McCloud posted:It is possible to simultaneously acknowledge that A) The migrants are not to blame, B) The migration policy has caused problems that need to be adressed and C) neoliberalism is a far bigger issue and also a big reason B occurred. I mean, sure, but not in the way you want? Immigration or asylum policy has certainly caused problems, but we're talking stuff like asylum seekers being sent back to die in unsafe countries and people languishing forever in privately run asylum centers. You can't really blame it for the economic issues facing some in your country. The costs associated with immigration are truly a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things, but you're being told to focus on that because even if it plays into the hands of the blood and soil guys on the far right it is really convenient for those running off with all the cash. To be honest, you're either arguing in bad faith or you've bought into a bunch of the far-right propaganda and don't realize it. If it's the latter and you do have some compassion for your fellow man try to realize that you're not just being hosed by the rich in the here and now; you're being set up for the time down the road where global warming and the conflicts that follow are going to result in global migration on a scale that will make the current situation you're so concerned about seem like a memory of heaven. The same hawks that are manipulating you now will look to you for a mandate to let millions die so you can continue to serve them in their ivory towers. If you don't want to be a party to that kind of barbarism vote these fuckers out. thotsky fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 22:31
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Rnr posted:You have to excuse my confusion at times, with keeping track of who is sub human racist scum and who isn't... They can't all have custom titles like yours. thotsky fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 22:39
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evil_bunnY posted:lol controversial with your kind, maybe Uhm, no dude. That gently caress up was an actual thing. Here's Lilla Drevet discussing it (fast forward to around 39 minutes) https://www.acast.com/lilladrevet/154.vansterpartietsindependenceday
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Aug 31, 2018 23:21
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Biomute posted:And white dudes are super great towards these groups? The people upset about immigrants are not women and LGBT groups, if anything there is significant solidarity between activists from these groups and anti-racists groups. Whataboutism isn't exactly the rebuttal you think it is. It is possible to see problems with both groups of people. Biomute posted:If you are truly able to identify neoliberalism/capitalism as being the prime cause of the state of these services you should also be able to see that doing away with immigration would be the very definition a short-sighted solution. I don't agree with your premise that immigrants constitute an unworkable drain on these resources, but even if doing away with them ended up saving a bit of money in the short run why do you expect that money to go to you? Neoliberalism will continue to march on, services will be slashed and someone will pocket that money. You would end up where you started. I get the feeling you're misconstruing what I'm saying. I didn't say we should be "doing away with immigration". Nor am I saying we should leave neoliberalism march unimpeded, quite the contrary. Realistically however, they should have reduced the number of people we took in during the mass syrian migration to match the amount of resources we had available. The wave of people coming in was not exactly a surprise. Biomute posted:I mean, sure, but not in the way you want? Immigration or asylum policy has certainly caused problems, but we're talking stuff like asylum seekers being sent back to die in unsafe countries and people languishing forever in privately run asylum centers. You can't really blame it for the economic issues facing some in your country. The costs associated with immigration are truly a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things, but you're being told to focus on that because even if it plays into the hands of the blood and soil guys on the far right it is really convenient for those running off with all the cash. But I'm not blaming it for economic issues facing the country. That's you putting words in my mouth. What I'm saying is that it has exacerbated already existing issues caused by slashed welfare.I'm not sure if you're so used to arguing with right wing boogiemen that you assume things about me and what I wrote or if I'm not being clear, but at no point did I say that it's the immigrants fault that that healthcare workers are overworked and underpaid or whatever. Biomute posted:To be honest, you're either arguing in bad faith or you've bought into a bunch of the far-right propaganda and don't realize it. If it's the latter and you do have some compassion for your fellow man try to realize that you're not just being hosed by the rich in the here and now; you're being set up for the time down the road where global warming and the conflicts that follow are going to result in global migration on a scale that will make the current situation you're so concerned about seem like a memory of heaven. The same hawks that are manipulating you now will look to you for a mandate to let millions die so you can continue to serve them in their ivory towers. If you don't want to be a party to that kind of barbarism vote these fuckers out. Again, you've invented an argument I haven't made. In fact we're largely in agreement that it's neoliberal politics that has been the biggest reason we're having issues in healthcare and schools and what not. My original point is that I have a certain understanding for people voting for SD because if you wanted to restrict immigration you only had one party to vote for up until like 3 years ago. But since a lot of other parties now also want to restrict the number of people coming in they don't get that excuse anymore. You argue (correctly) that neoliberalism is a far bigger issue, and on that we're in agreement. No one here is arguing we should entirely stop taking in people (at least not long term) or deport the ones we have, but we should only be taking in what we can handle, and during the mass syrian refugee crisis we took on way more than that and there were consequences as a result. Like, don't mistake my somewhat conservative stance on immigration as some sort of support for SD. I loathe those guys and would very much like to see their influenced reduced, and I voted accordingly. But like I said, it's possible to hold several and not necessarily conflicting thoughts about this
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Aug 31, 2018 23:43
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McCloud posted:Whataboutism isn't exactly the rebuttal you think it is. It is possible to see problems with both groups of people. It's not whataboutism. I'm making fun of you saying women and LGBT people are really upset about all these immigrants and their dangerous culture. That's a narrative usually pushed by the people they consider the actual threat. McCloud posted:I get the feeling you're misconstruing what I'm saying. I didn't say we should be "doing away with immigration". Nor am I saying we should leave neoliberalism march unimpeded, quite the contrary. Realistically however, they should have reduced the number of people we took in during the mass syrian migration to match the amount of resources we had available. But clearly we have the resources, we're just choosing to give them to profiteers and capitalists instead of giving them to those who need it. Why are you so concerned with playing a zero-sum game with rigged rules if you reognize the rules should be thrown out? Maybe I am misconstruing you, but you insisting on doing this makes your motives questionable. McCloud posted:My original point is that I have a certain understanding for people voting for SD because if you wanted to restrict immigration you only had one party to vote for up until like 3 years ago. And that is with good reason as I've already mentioned. Immigration is not without its challenges, but there is no moral argument for restricting it when you would much more effectively deal with whatever economic issues arise by simply taxing the rich and spending more. To campaign for it means you are either ignorant of this, or a racist. While I am prepared to grant that some who vote SD might be ignorant of how neoliberalism have hosed our countries you claim not to be so...
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Sep 1, 2018 00:28
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Lmao your tag is awesome. Hur får man en sådan?
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Sep 1, 2018 11:55
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Köp en avatar och lägg in bilden i din titel: code:
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Sep 1, 2018 12:35
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Biomute posted:It's not whataboutism. I'm making fun of you saying women and LGBT people are really upset about all these immigrants and their dangerous culture. That's a narrative usually pushed by the people they consider the actual threat. There is a sizable contingency if LGBT people concered. In france homesexuals support Le Pen to a large extent. All you are exemplifying is the same strategy that has been going on for the last 8+ years, and which have continually has failed the left. Deny any problems or costs of immigration and toss everybody that has voted for SD on a trash heap. So now that SD will probably get 20% of the vote a fifth of Sweden is just gone? Keep running a failing political strategy until it starts working again, i guess? I think the best example is how V and FI handled the rape against the paralyzed women on Gotland. For the uninitiated, the suspects where from a local asylum center, and where tracked down and lambasted in a video by a nazi. V and FI respond by... holding a manifestation that's basically "not all muslims are rapists" and "white people rape too". Yes, the best time to make that point is right after a paralyzed woman gets group raped. Despicable.
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Sep 2, 2018 11:12
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White Rock posted:toss everybody that has voted for SD on a trash heap. That is literally where they belong, though.
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Sep 2, 2018 11:58
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White Rock posted:
I did some googling and it's a bit more nuanced than that, turns out that racists were exploiting the situation to make the point that "all immigrants are rapists". Maybe if they hadn't did that then V and FI wouldn't have had to make the point that not all muslims are rapists.
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Sep 2, 2018 12:25
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White Rock posted:There is a sizable contingency if LGBT people concered. In france homesexuals support Le Pen to a large extent. I don’t know what the Swedish left is like, but here in Denmark, what remains of the actual left has continuously criticized the government for their draconian garbage integration policy and pushed for having one that actually has integration as an end goal.
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Sep 2, 2018 12:42
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Alhazred posted:I did some googling and it's a bit more nuanced than that, turns out that racists were exploiting the situation to make the point that "all immigrants are rapists". Maybe if they hadn't did that then V and FI wouldn't have had to make the point that not all muslims are rapists. The fact that you can't realize how incredibly lovely optics that event was is absolute proof that the V will never have power. Completely on the defensive at every turning point. KozmoNaut posted:That is literally where they belong, though.
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Sep 2, 2018 12:52
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White Rock posted:The fact that you can't realize how incredibly lovely optics that event was is absolute proof that the V will never have power. Completely on the defensive at every turning point.  FI wanted the focus to be "rape is bad", others wanted the focus to be "immigrants are bad".
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Sep 2, 2018 13:41
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Alhazred posted:FI wanted the focus to be "rape is bad", others wanted the focus to be "immigrants are bad". I've never misunderstood FI and V's intention, and it's still really lovely optics. Again, a manifestation of "all men rape" after a paralyzed woman gets gang raped. Read that out loud. How does that look in the press? How easily can't the extreme right spin this too "V + FI defends rapists?". If you can't see how this looks, your out of touch. Here is a question that might illuminate mine and yours position: Is politics the conquest of power to implement an ideology, or is it doing the morally "right thing" at every turn?
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Sep 2, 2018 14:14
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White Rock posted:Cool, have fun when 20% turns into 30% in a couple of years. Consisting mostly working class, you know, the left's traditional base? If they ever get any real power and responsibility, they'll crash and burn. Racist fucks were never the left's traditional base.
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Sep 2, 2018 14:22
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White Rock posted:I've never misunderstood FI and V's intention, and it's still really lovely optics. Again, a manifestation of "all men rape" after a paralyzed woman gets gang raped. Read that out loud. How does that look in the press? How easily can't the extreme right spin this too "V + FI defends rapists?". If you can't see how this looks, your out of touch. How did you, and your working class buddies who were forced into nazism by the left, respond to the manifestation by other parties that “all Muslims rape” after a paralyzed woman was gang raped? Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Sep 2, 2018 |
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Sep 2, 2018 14:48
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White Rock posted:I've never misunderstood FI and V's intention, and it's still really lovely optics. Again, a manifestation of "all men rape" after a paralyzed woman gets gang raped. Read that out loud. How does that look in the press? How easily can't the extreme right spin this too "V + FI defends rapists?". If you can't see how this looks, your out of touch. Zulily Zoetrope posted:How did you and your working class buddies who were forced into nazism by the left respond to the manifestation by other parties that “all Muslims rape” after a paralyzed woman was gang raped?
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Sep 2, 2018 15:05
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KozmoNaut posted:That is literally where they belong, though. KozmoNaut posted:If they ever get any real power and responsibility, they'll crash and burn. Thank you for being an excellent example why the traditional left are dying out in the entire western world, good loving riddance. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 2, 2018 15:07
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KozmoNaut posted:If they ever get any real power and responsibility, they'll crash and burn. You'd be amazed or rather amazingly depressed over how common it is to find incredibly racist and narrow minded views among staunch S voters and union members in smaller communities throughout Sweden. Head up to the far north and ask about Sami people if you want to lose faith in humanity and your will to live.
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Sep 2, 2018 15:09
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^^^^ I've lived in various rural areas and yes, casual everyday racism is just a way of life there. It's part of why I moved away, I refuse to be polite to people who act that way. Pump it up! Do it! posted:Thank you for being an excellent example why the traditional left are dying out in the entire western world, good loving riddance. 3/10 low effort troll
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Sep 2, 2018 15:11
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White Rock posted:Here is a question that might illuminate mine and yours position: Is politics the conquest of power to implement an ideology, or is it doing the morally "right thing" at every turn? How can you implement your ideology if, in order to win an election, you promise not to implement it?
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Sep 2, 2018 15:11
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Pump it up! Do it! posted:Thank you for being an excellent example why the traditional left are dying out in the entire western world, good loving riddance. There is room on the trash heap for you too.
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Sep 2, 2018 15:16
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White Rock posted:I've never misunderstood FI and V's intention, and it's still really lovely optics. Again, a manifestation of "all men rape" If you think that was what happened you have misunderstood.
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Sep 2, 2018 16:03
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Sweden *is* that trash heap. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 2, 2018 16:03
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Alhazred posted:If you think that was what happened you have misunderstood. I was there. Six dudes holding a banner with "dra inte all över en kam"? aka not all muslim people are rapists aka all kinds of men from all kinds differing ethnicites rape. I'm misunderstanding nothing. evil_bunnY posted:My dude it just looks like “rapes are committed by lots of men regardless of origin”, which is true. If there weren’t racists trying to argue a lovely point in bad faith you wouldn’t need the reminder. And i'm not disagreeing with the assertion. But if you think that's how it looks to the average person, you're out of touch, you're currently residing on the moon. Like the fact that you can't stomach this simple point is a real symptom of how terrified the left is about dealing with problems it finds uncomfortable.Like when V had that spat with Amineh Kakabaveh when she started talking about morality policing in the suburbs. But if you don't actually want to win elections, who really cares, am i right? Psst here is something long form on the issue, Markus and Malcom, self avowed communists, podcast on the subject: https://soundcloud.com/markus-och-malcom/angaende-gruppvaldtackten-pa-gotland
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Sep 2, 2018 16:49
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I think you'll find that their argument is that rape is a problem with men, not exclusively a problem with muslims, however hard the right tries to push that narrative.
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Sep 2, 2018 16:58
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It sure is nice having all these right wing people willing to help the left win elections.
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Sep 2, 2018 17:13
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We've got to fight on the terms of the people who honestly believe that there are three times as many Muslims than in reality and mutter "Breivik's only mistake was not whacking Ali Esbati" under their breath in private company. Please don't try to challenge their delusions, there's an election to win.
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Sep 2, 2018 17:23
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Biomute posted:It sure is nice having all these right wing people willing to help the left win elections. Also hilarious when M is heading towards its worst election and V towards its best.
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Sep 2, 2018 17:25
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Biomute posted:It sure is nice having all these right wing people willing to help the left win elections. Socialist, actually. And i haven't really raised any controversial points in this thread except that. 1. There are actual problems w/r/t immigration and the "left" is unwilling too talk about it. In any way. 2. That the Gotland case was incredibly bad optics to ANYONE on the ground. Assuage peoples fears and give them something they can work with. You can find a middle ground between "THERE ARE NO PROBLEMS" and "EVERYTHING IS A PROBLEM". Corbyn's assurance that work visas will be on British pay and condition is in a leftist tradition but also helps with peoples notion that migrant workers undercut wages. quote:The Labour leader said that after leaving the EU, there would still be European workers in Britain and vice versa. He added: "What there wouldn't be is the wholesale importation of underpaid workers from central Europe in order to destroy conditions, particularly in the construction industry." Pushing for EU wide migrant distribution which was debated way back when, or talking seriously about honor culture could be two Swedish specific examples.
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Sep 2, 2018 17:45
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KozmoNaut posted:I think you'll find that their argument is that rape is a problem with men, not exclusively a problem with muslims, however hard the right tries to push that narrative. As seen in Germany and the USA, when you try to shift and pivot to 'well ALL men rape including our native racial/ethnic group!' then the easy response is 'so why are we importing MORE rapists when we have home grown problems to solve?'. Assuming that they allow that  to sail by them unchallenged, anyway.Its important to remember that the majority of a given population is not as far-left as many members of this discussion board and that optics matter.
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Sep 2, 2018 17:45
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LeJackal posted:As seen in Germany and the USA, when you try to shift and pivot to 'well ALL men rape including our native racial/ethnic group!' then the easy response is 'so why are we importing MORE rapists when we have home grown problems to solve?'. Assuming that they allow that You can't really win that discussion. For example. Sweden and Norway recently pushed for laws that would offer more protection for rape victims by saying that you need active consent for the sex to not be rape (one of the reasons the accused got acquitted in the Gotland case is that they would had to have used force for it to be counted as rape). But then the response was that that would make everybody a rapist if they hadn't filled out the proper forms.
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Sep 2, 2018 18:09
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