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Karl Barks posted:Gotta break a few eggs, etc it’s just funny to accuse them of never capturing the working class when they’re the biggest communist party in the country where Duterte is president.
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Sep 3, 2018 19:23
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I know it's a rather controversially revisionist attitude to take, but imho the political leadership reacting to ideological dissidence within the party with murder instead of debate doesn't really inspire much confidence in such leadership in me, but hell what do I know
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Sep 3, 2018 19:23
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communism is when i kill people i disagree with
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Sep 3, 2018 19:25
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apropos to nothing posted:communism is when i kill people i disagree with Kurnugia posted:I know it's a rather controversially revisionist attitude to take, but imho the political leadership reacting to ideological dissidence within the party with murder instead of debate doesn't really inspire much confidence in such leadership in me, but hell what do I know revolutionary peoples' war isn't a debate lmao
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Sep 3, 2018 19:27
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:revolutionary peoples' war isn't a debate lmao yeah, for people like you it is a justification
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Sep 3, 2018 19:34
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:revolutionary peoples' war isn't a debate lmao I think mine, and most other peoples problem here, is that you are in fact supposed to debate other socialists and communists, rather than murder them. it might seem absurd to compare the two, but its basically a difference of degrees, the same poo poo takes place in maoist groups in america where like the red guards in austin were harassing and stalking people in PSL and people who associated with them for poo poo a few months ago. theres a really hosed up hostility that some maoists specifically have for other leftists such that they can label those they disagree with as social democrats and then they become less than human
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Sep 3, 2018 19:34
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apropos to nothing posted:I think mine, and most other peoples problem here, is that you are in fact supposed to debate other socialists and communists, rather than murder them. it might seem absurd to compare the two, but its basically a difference of degrees, the same poo poo takes place in maoist groups in america where like the red guards in austin were harassing and stalking people in PSL and people who associated with them for poo poo a few months ago. theres a really hosed up hostility that some maoists specifically have for other leftists such that they can label those they disagree with as social democrats and then they become less than human Wait did that actually happen? I thought they just made a bunch of bizarre blog posts
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Sep 3, 2018 19:37
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thats not even a shot against maoism, me and the rest of the kshama sawant cult have been working with maoists in china against repression of workers in the southeast there for years now. there is though the hosed up gonzalo strain of maoism which everyone I've ever seen embrace makes them into edgelord internet communists who publish 10,000 word essays about how basically the answer is to murder people they disagree with
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Sep 3, 2018 19:38
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Karl Barks posted:Wait did that actually happen? I thought they just made a bunch of bizarre blog posts im not in austin but there was video and firsthand accounts of them disrupting events and poo poo. the national PSL actually wrote a statement about it
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Sep 3, 2018 19:39
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i mean at some point you literally have to kill a bunch of people you disagree with in order to take power, the idea is prolly to not start with people more or less on your side though (that comes later!)
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Sep 3, 2018 19:39
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and I'm sure such attitudes to ideology had further absolutely nothing at all to do with stalin's purges or the cultural revolution. after the people's war is finished, we all merrily go back to party democracy and resolve our issues with civil debate, but during people's war? bullets. but remember, only during the revolutionary struggle! we end all that *zap* and poop once the revolution succeeds
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Sep 3, 2018 19:40
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notice how even though I'm not a member of PSL and have some significant disagreements with their ideology and tactics I'm not calling for them to be murdered and driven out of texas? or how there weren't any hits put out on ted grant after he left the socialist party in the 90s? thats because we're all trying to destroy the capitalist system, and godspeed to whichever of us succeeds at doing it
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Sep 3, 2018 19:42
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If you're never actually going to do any of the actions you call for you can make them as extreme as you want
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Sep 3, 2018 19:48
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its also frustrating cause, and this isnt a shot against anyone ITT who im disagreeing with but what ive seen irl, the people that are usually the most vocal and "militant" with their peoples war and opposing the social fascists are usually middle class, spend like 2 years in college as leftists, then go get middle class jobs and become milquetoast liberals
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Sep 3, 2018 19:48
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Jewel Repetition posted:If you're never actually going to do any of the actions you call for you can make them as extreme as you want
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Sep 3, 2018 19:48
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apropos to nothing posted:its also frustrating cause, and this isnt a shot against anyone ITT who im disagreeing with but what ive seen irl, the people that are usually the most vocal and "militant" with their peoples war and opposing the social fascists are usually middle class, spend like 2 years in college as leftists, then go get middle class jobs and become milquetoast liberals That's fully the result of seeing politics as aesthetics instead of real convictions about what would make the world better
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Sep 3, 2018 19:50
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What was the WWP/PSL split about incidentally?
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Sep 3, 2018 19:55
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apropos to nothing posted:I think mine, and most other peoples problem here, is that you are in fact supposed to debate other socialists and communists, rather than murder them. it might seem absurd to compare the two, but its basically a difference of degrees, the same poo poo takes place in maoist groups in america where like the red guards in austin were harassing and stalking people in PSL and people who associated with them for poo poo a few months ago. theres a really hosed up hostility that some maoists specifically have for other leftists such that they can label those they disagree with as social democrats and then they become less than human I don't think it's fair to compare conditions for First World Maoists who can only dream of revolutionary struggle, to groups like the CPP and the Naxalites who have been waging decades of brutal guerilla war against a deeply reactionary regime and semifeudalistic relations to the people. This all smacks of the same kind of handwringing over the FARC committing its own occasional atrocities when in the context of the overall peoples' war they were a drop in the bucket compared to what was being waged by the state and right wing paramilitaries. Revolutionary war is never going to line up perfectly with your own sense of political correctness - and this was especially true during the Russian civil war when the Bolsheviks had to kill plenty of socialists because they sided with the Whites. War is not the Left Forum.
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Sep 3, 2018 19:57
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:occasional atrocities
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Sep 3, 2018 19:59
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Who invited Jeb?
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Sep 3, 2018 20:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Who invited Jeb? Trotsky himself
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Sep 3, 2018 20:01
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Noted never killed any fellow leftists Leon Trotsky
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Sep 3, 2018 20:02
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it would rule so hard t o have socdems as my mortal enemies
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Sep 3, 2018 20:03
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Not murdering socialists is political correctness
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Sep 3, 2018 20:03
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A Big Fuckin Hornet posted:it would rule so hard t o have socdems as my mortal enemies Ya better start believin socdems are yer mortal enemies They arr one
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Sep 3, 2018 20:04
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this is getting hard to satirize
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Sep 3, 2018 20:05
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I don't think it's fair to compare conditions for First World Maoists who can only dream of revolutionary struggle, to groups like the CPP and the Naxalites who have been waging decades of brutal guerilla war against a deeply reactionary regime and semifeudalistic relations to the people. This all smacks of the same kind of handwringing over the FARC committing its own occasional atrocities when in the context of the overall peoples' war they were a drop in the bucket compared to what was being waged by the state and right wing paramilitaries. Revolutionary war is never going to line up perfectly with your own sense of political correctness - and this was especially true during the Russian civil war when the Bolsheviks had to kill plenty of socialists because they sided with the Whites. yeah the conditions are completely different no argument. i think maybe the point that we should all draw though based off even your comment here, is that maybe 40 year long guerrila wars arent an effective means of winning working class power. would the various foco or guerrila groups have been able to establish stronger roots and support among the working class if they had worked more deliberately to reintegrate into the, yes very reactionary state, as a means of gaining greater access to the working class as a whole? the bolsheviks did indeed end up fighting against other socialists, they didnt engage in assassinations against one another though or even their enemies and a lot of those who opposed the bolsheviks initially were later let into the communist party. the russian civil war was a horrible war filled with atrocities. do I think it was justified? yes, it was to safeguard and defend the first ever workers state. would i feel that same way if it lasted 20 years? maybe not, and i think even a lot of bolsheviks would have seen a protracted state of civil war as anathema to actually developing the political consciousness and organization of the working class.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:05
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apropos to nothing posted:the kshama sawant cult i like the rebrand
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Sep 3, 2018 20:06
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Noted never killed any fellow leftists Leon Trotsky His atrocities were, at worst, occasional
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Sep 3, 2018 20:06
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apropos to nothing posted:yeah the conditions are completely different no argument. i think maybe the point that we should all draw though based off even your comment here, is that maybe 40 year long guerrila wars arent an effective means of winning working class power. would the various foco or guerrila groups have been able to establish stronger roots and support among the working class if they had worked more deliberately to reintegrate into the, yes very reactionary state, as a means of gaining greater access to the working class as a whole? No. Because the state would have just killed them. I'm not exactly a big believer in foco myself, but in places like Colombia and etc., they just outright kill union organizers and other reformists anyway.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:07
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:No. Because the state would have just killed them. I'm not exactly a big believer in foco myself, but in places like Colombia and etc., they just outright kill union organizers and other reformists anyway. so im perfectly comfortable admitting that i can be wrong, the NPA may be completely justified in all their actions. im not even opposed to the idea of supporting them necessarily. however, i do think its pretty hosed up to say that a socialist journalist who expresses legitimate criticism of the group should be murdered. again, i can accept poo poo is hosed up in a lot of places, but the theme is almost constantly those who uncritically defend heinous actions by various socialist/communist groups dont do so from a place of justification through difficult circumstances and conditions, but instead basically just call the detractors traitors and say they should be killed, like the author of the tweet that started this derail
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Sep 3, 2018 20:15
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apropos to nothing posted:so im perfectly comfortable admitting that i can be wrong, the NPA may be completely justified in all their actions. im not even opposed to the idea of supporting them necessarily. however, i do think its pretty hosed up to say that a socialist journalist who expresses legitimate criticism of the group should be murdered. again, i can accept poo poo is hosed up in a lot of places, but the theme is almost constantly those who uncritically defend heinous actions by various socialist/communist groups dont do so from a place of justification through difficult circumstances and conditions, but instead basically just call the detractors traitors and say they should be killed, like the author of the tweet that started this derail What if he's right was a joke. I don't know anything about Alex de Jong.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:18
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apropos to nothing posted:i think even a lot of bolsheviks would have seen a protracted state of civil war as anathema to actually developing the political consciousness and organization of the working class. it doesn't matter what they thought. they aren't in the philippines now and neither are you. so stop shadowboxing against the NPA when your disagreement is with LARPing first worlders. No one likes the Florida Swamp Maoists.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:20
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Impermanent posted:No one likes the Florida Swamp Maoists. wtf!
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Sep 3, 2018 20:23
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Dreddout posted:wtf! ok, no one respects the Florida Swamp Maoists. Many of us like them.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:23
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so seriously, I do have criticism of the NPA and I think the article is fine. let me ask yall a question here: is the NPA correct in the targeted killings theyve carried out against former members? maybe you dont know enough to answer, and I respect that, and I most definitely dont. but heres why I ask, 1. if theyre correct in doing so, then doesnt it point to a serious problem in the organization that "counter-revolutionaries" can continually rise to prominence within the organization which then need to be purged later, or 2. its not ok and so they are killing fellow travelers
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Sep 3, 2018 20:25
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shooting dissidents has a rather negative effect on party unity, regardless of circumstances
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Sep 3, 2018 20:27
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like its not a fair comparison, but its like stalin defenders who defend and celebrate the bolshevik party, when if you are a legit believer in stalin and what he did, youd have to accept that over half the leadership in 1917 of the party was counter-revolutionary. why would you celebrate a party that would allow the majority of its leadership to be made up of people that you would identify as counter-revolutionary?
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Sep 3, 2018 20:31
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Jewel Repetition posted:His atrocities were, at worst, occasional this makes me wonder about something. it's seriously difficult to imagine a war without war crimes. I don't think that has ever happened up to this point, even after we developed the notion of war crimes about a century or so ago anyways--nevermind before. and it seems like some kind of armed conflict is in the endgame of any ultimate confrontation with capitalism, unless you accept that we can really tame the beast through electoralism or i dunno having a lot of co-ops or something. I think Marx said something about revolutionary struggles being ugly things in a way that is really eloquent in that way he does some times, but I can't really recall enough of it to be able to google it frankly, I think it's optimistic to think that the left will seriously build enough coherence to win against capitalism. especially when thinking about how far into fascism the ruling class will have shifted by the time we get there in terms of organizing, and a dire material situation in which people can actually feel that kind of urgency. to think that we could build enough force to even initiate a serious militant pushback in that situation, on top of that, to think we would win, and on top of that, that we will have a completely morally clean victory, that seems multiplicatively more optimistic at each step. don't get me wrong, I think it's good to hope that a revolutionary struggle will be conducted ethically though. it would be nicer to be able to have rosa luxemburg's moral standards rather than lenin's/trotsky's standards, and it would be nicer to have lenin's/trotsky's standards rather than stalin's standards besides, nevermind revolution, it's an uphill battle to start a union right now anyways so it probably pays to not get too far ahead of ourselves
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Sep 3, 2018 20:45
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apropos to nothing posted:so seriously, I do have criticism of the NPA and I think the article is fine. let me ask yall a question here: is the NPA correct in the targeted killings theyve carried out against former members? maybe you dont know enough to answer, and I respect that, and I most definitely dont. but heres why I ask, 1. if theyre correct in doing so, then doesnt it point to a serious problem in the organization that "counter-revolutionaries" can continually rise to prominence within the organization which then need to be purged later, or 2. its not ok and so they are killing fellow travelers Putting myself in their shoes I wouldn't be willing to suffer traitors either, but I don't know enough to know if they're actually justified.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:47
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