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almost certain this tweet wasn't about making bathtub epinephrine
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Sep 5, 2018 21:26
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Azerban posted:almost certain this tweet wasn't about making bathtub epinephrine Is that like a bathtub mint julep? xtal fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Sep 5, 2018 |
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Sep 5, 2018 21:27
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xtal posted:Maybe you should try and make it less rickety? Or have fun with your wait times and insurance and pharma-corps loving you over I guess. The rickety foundations of an anarchic society are not something you can simply ‘fix’ it’s a systemic problem that is a manifestation of the way that type of society would function. You might as well try and fix the inherent contradictions of capitalism.
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Sep 5, 2018 21:29
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Helsing posted:Lmao I see you too have discovered the joys of earnestly engaging xtal.
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Sep 5, 2018 21:34
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infernal machines posted:I see you too have discovered the joys of earnestly engaging xtal. Oh you two are two different people?
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Sep 5, 2018 21:35
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xtal posted:
Please stop editing out these candid examples of how dumb you are.
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Sep 5, 2018 21:41
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Toalpaz posted:Oh you two are two different people? Most of the time, yes.
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Sep 5, 2018 21:44
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Toalpaz posted:Oh you two are two different people? 
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Sep 5, 2018 21:46
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Azerban posted:almost certain this tweet wasn't about making bathtub epinephrine yeah. I get the feeling xtal is real privileged to not need anything beyond maybe an annual checkup or they wouldn't be pretending anarchist communes can medicines good
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Sep 5, 2018 21:48
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I have no current medical conditions needing attention. I can't see the merits of universal healthcare. Or school. Or roads.
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Sep 5, 2018 21:51
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Also how dare doctors pretend to have medical authority I know how best to treat my diabetes with bloodletting
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Sep 5, 2018 21:53
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Helsing posted:Please stop editing out these candid examples of how dumb you are. I didn't remove it because it was wrong, thanks for the qft
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Sep 5, 2018 21:58
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Arivia posted:yeah. I get the feeling xtal is real privileged to not need anything beyond maybe an annual checkup or they wouldn't be pretending anarchist communes can medicines good I'm also guessing he has never seen what happens when somebody in a small and insular community sexually assaults or harasses other people and the only mechanism for dealing with any disputes relies on "consensus". That having been said, since no political ideology has yet made us immortal post scarcity demigods I can only conclude all political systems are equally bad.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:03
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EvidenceBasedQuack posted:Also how dare doctors pretend to have medical authority I know how best to treat my diabetes with bloodletting No, my communal partner says you need to take one grain of sugar diluted in 100L of water. Anarchism only works if you contribute and listen to the community, man.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:03
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The thought of Bernier splitting some of the right vote is Vince.gif
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Sep 5, 2018 22:19
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I remember during the first Alberta election that the Wild Rose participated in, plenty of the usually more progressive voting friends of mine said they were too terrified of a possible Wild Rose government, and therefore voted for the Alberta Conservative Party instead of the NDP/Liberals/whoever they would usually vote for. Two elections later and our province is about to be steamrollered by a bunch of fuckers way more regressive than Prentice or Redford ever were. Helsing is right to be worried. FPTP can be way too easily gamed with a little long-term planning.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:29
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Square Peg posted:I remember during the first Alberta election that the Wild Rose participated in, plenty of the usually more progressive voting friends of mine said they were too terrified of a possible Wild Rose government, and therefore voted for the Alberta Conservative Party instead of the NDP/Liberals/whoever they would usually vote for. If only Canadians could reach a consensus on electoral reform through a cryptic facebook quiz.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:32
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Helsing posted:Private hierarchy and authority long predates the modern state and continue to exist in situations where the state collapses. The idea that removing laws magically removes the basis for inequality doesn't become any less dumb when the person advocating for it calls themselves an anarchist instead of a libertarian. I'm not an anarchist, but this strikes me as an unfair dismissal of both anarchist thought and anarchist groups as they existed in the real world. For the first, there's a lot that you're missing if you're just going to dismiss the works of Proudhon or Bakunin, and for the latter there have been plenty of communities and tribes that could be arguably described as anarchist. The biggest I'm familiar with is the Nuer tribe of Ethiopia, who had no formal positions of leadership, no laws beyond what the community decided upon on a case-by-case basis, and were about 100,000 strong at their height during the age of colonization, so this sort of system can scale surprisingly well in the right circumstances.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:38
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Square Peg posted:I remember during the first Alberta election that the Wild Rose participated in, plenty of the usually more progressive voting friends of mine said they were too terrified of a possible Wild Rose government, and therefore voted for the Alberta Conservative Party instead of the NDP/Liberals/whoever they would usually vote for. This is true, but it also gave us easily the best government we've had in half a century, and finally destroyed the Alberta Liberal Party. The potential for good things is there.
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Sep 5, 2018 22:59
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Falstaff posted:I'm not an anarchist, but this strikes me as an unfair dismissal of both anarchist thought and anarchist groups as they existed in the real world. For the first, there's a lot that you're missing if you're just going to dismiss the works of Proudhon or Bakunin, and for the latter there have been plenty of communities and tribes that could be arguably described as anarchist. The biggest I'm familiar with is the Nuer tribe of Ethiopia, who had no formal positions of leadership, no laws beyond what the community decided upon on a case-by-case basis, and were about 100,000 strong at their height during the age of colonization, so this sort of system can scale surprisingly well in the right circumstances. What was the relationship between father and children or husband and wife under the Nuer? Between a religious official (or equivalent) and a lay person? Because the idea that a society organized primarily around cattle herding and run by groups of elders was non-hierarchical seems like a pretty dubious claim, before we even get into the questions of whether such a system is even vaguely applicable to an industrial society. Anyway I did some quick googling about Nuer strategies of conflict resolution and found the following contemporary account taken (via google books) from "Discussing Conflict in Ethiopia" (p. 37-39). If you think this is a flawed or unreliable account then let me know since I'm just going by what can easily be found on google:      This doesn't sound very horizontal. Everyone's position is based on birth, age and gender, conflicts are entirely conceived of as a group vs. group affair, the entire system revolves around the ownership and exchange of property and women are very blatantly cast as inferior to men. Also, weirdly enough, when the state collapsed these people didn't spontaneously solve all their problems by relying on their local anarchistic conflict resolution methods. They just started massacring each other:  And to be clear I'm not questioning that a non-state society can function. It obviously can because most societies throughout human history haven't had a state in the way we would think of one today. By that standard feudalism is anarchy and a monarch is just the eldest decision maker of a commune that has taken steps to makes things "less rickety" as xtal put it. When you think you're a leftist but you're advocating the same system as Hans-Herman Hoppe maybe you should start asking how you ended up where you are.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:34
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xtal posted:Maybe you should try and make it less rickety? Or have fun with your wait times and insurance and pharma-corps loving you over I guess. Have fun with our amazing world that democracy and capitalism make better every single day fuckin a.  Oh no there's a wait time if you need an entirely new hip for free, better abolish government. And your stupid centrism quote sucks, things are getting better at a decent rate. Unless you have a good plan to increase that rate being driven by the 10 billion horsepower engine of capitalism which you don't so go loving smoke weed in your community garden goddamn ungrateful anarchist parasite good thing we live in such a great society that we can easily tolerates a percentage of people who actively contribute nothing
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Sep 5, 2018 23:34
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Square Peg posted:I remember during the first Alberta election that the Wild Rose participated in, plenty of the usually more progressive voting friends of mine said they were too terrified of a possible Wild Rose government, and therefore voted for the Alberta Conservative Party instead of the NDP/Liberals/whoever they would usually vote for.
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Sep 5, 2018 23:42
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Helsing posted:*snip* Yeah, I'm not advocating anything; like I said, I'm not an anarchist and I don't subscribe to anarchist thought. I'm saying you're painting with way too broad a brush in your effort to (deservedly, imo) dunk on xtal. What you posted is, as best I can tell, perfectly accurate, but it misses a lot of nuance of the history of the tribe. I'll admit, I'm going off 10+-year-old memories of an anthropology course so a lot of the details are lost to fuzzy memory, but during first contact with Europeans the Nuer elders weren't considered leaders as we think of them, they were just considered the wisest people around - tribesmembers could (and often did) ignore their advice. In fact, that the Nuer didn't have any traditional leaders made colonization very difficult for the British, since this frustrated the usual strategies the British would employ. Obviously, the Nuer of today are not the Nuer of the 19th or 18th centuries - no culture survives colonization unscathed, not even the colonizers. And likewise, the Nuer weren't exactly an idyllic culture - they raided their neighbours with impunity, and no their women weren't exactly given the same kind of autonomy that the men of the tribe enjoyed, to put it lightly. But they also didn't have any kind of singular authority or ruling caste, and even what (kinda-sorta) authorities they did have didn't get to go around telling people what to do (elders who tried to do that tended to cease being considered elders in their communities.) They're just one example among many of cultures that defied a lot of what westerners considered (and consider) to be natural outcomes of inherent human nature.
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Sep 6, 2018 00:00
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Have fun with our amazing world that democracy and capitalism make better every single day fuckin a. capitalism is poo poo dude
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Sep 6, 2018 01:10
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Falstaff posted:Yeah, I'm not advocating anything; like I said, I'm not an anarchist and I don't subscribe to anarchist thought. I'm saying you're painting with way too broad a brush in your effort to (deservedly, imo) dunk on xtal. This discussion made me very curious so I went and found a fairly recent journal article on interpretations of Nuer history and anthropology, and it critiques a lot of these ideas as rooted in British ideas of power that couldn't cope with the idea that a society might be hierarchically organized around a different conception of power. Quotes are from Susan McKinnon, "Domestic Exceptions: Evans-Pritchard and the Creation of Nuer Patrilineality and Equality," Cultural Anthropology 15, no. 1 (2000): 35-83. https://www.jstor.org/stable/656640 if you have JSTOR access. p. 42 posted:Ultimately, Evans-Pritchard and Fortes have excluded from the comparative study of political systems all that they have relegated to the substructural "domestic" domain-including bilateral kinship, affinal relations, and the "internal" differences in status between persons, individuals, and categories-and all that they have relegated to a superstructural domain of religion, ritual, and myth-including religious ideas of power and religious-based distinctions in status. It is this set of exclusions, I will argue, that makes it possible for Evans-Pritchard to represent the Nuer as patrilineal and egalitarian at the same time that he so meticulously documents all the "matter that did not fit"-matter that, in the end, would have told a very different story of Nuer political life. p. 48 posted:Although members of dominant lineages may be linked to one another by egalitarian relations of buth, members of dominant and attached lineages are linked to one another by relations of hierarchy. Members of the dominant lineage of a clan are considered "aristocrats" (dil, plural diel).14 They are the "owners" of the land, by right of prior occupation: p. 49 posted:Evans-Pritchard discounts the political significance of the hierarchical differentiation between dominant and attached lineages, aristocrats and strangers/Dinka, because this differentiation is constructed along affinal and matrilateral lines, which, for Evans-Pritchard, belong not to the political domain but, rather, to the domestic domain. In this way, even though Evans-Pritchard is clear that the agnatic structure of the tribal system at the lowest level of the system, the village community, is complicated by hierarchical relations of affinity, matrilaterality, and adoption, he discounts the political import of the nonagnatic, hierarchical relations at this level. p. 53 posted:However, there is a more serious issue here. That is, because Evans-Pritchard has defined the political domain as distinct from the religious domain (which includes hierarchies of ritual power) and the domestic domain (which includes hierarchies of affinal and matrilateral relations), he is able to exclude almost all mention of hierarchical relations from his depiction of the political life of the Nuer. pp. 53-54 posted:Over and over again, throughout The Nuer (but especially in chapter 5), Evans-Pritchard makes the same series of exceptions: pp. 65-67 posted:The Power of the Political She then lays out a complex picture of a Nuer political system based on a two-tier social structure where one of the tiers are referred to as "aristocrats" and the most important things to determine your social status are your family's ancestral power and the amount of cattle you own: p. 69 posted:Gough outlines a kind of two-tiered system. On the one hand, the aristocrats (the "bulls") have rights over land and own considerably more cattle, which makes it possible to establish permanent "legal" marriages, achieve the patrilateral affiliation and patrilocal residence of children, and, thereby, establish deep and extended agnatic continuity over time. By contrast, stranger Nuer and Dinka have no rights over the land on which they reside and own considerably fewer cattle, which makes it more difficult to establish permanent "legal" marriages and the patrilateral affiliation and patrilocal residence of children. They are more likely to engage in one or another form of impermanent union, attach themselves through affinal or matrilateral links to other thok dwiel, and see their children affiliate to other men's thok dwiel. To the extent that they are able to establish agnatic continuity, the time depths of their thok dwiel tend to be shallower (about three generations deep) than those of the aristocrats (Gough 1971:94, 11). p. 70 posted:The two-tier hierarchy of Nuer society is realized not only through the differential forms of marriage, affiliation, and residence but also, and as a consequence, through the differential relation to ritual power. That is, to the extent that men affiliate patrilaterally and are able to maintain agnatic continuity within a particular territory over many generations, they remain connected to their ancestors and the land of their ancestors, of which they are the "owners"-both ritually and otherwise. To the extent, however, that men are unable to secure agnatic continuity over many generations and end up dispersed among the territories of which other groups are the "owners" and aristocrats, they lose the ritual power entailed by continuous connection to agnatic ancestors and to the land of their ancestors. The differential access to ritual power is significant because it is one of the key markers of hierarchy for the Nuer themselves. p. 72 posted:Because brothers married in order of seniority (Evans-Pritchard 1951:141), both younger brothers and, especially, younger half brothers had to wait until their elder brothers all married, at which point their father's herd might be exhausted, leaving few cattle for their own marriages. The potential for conflict increased when the father died, leaving control over the herds in the hands of either an elder brother or a paternal uncle pp. 73-74 posted:What, then, is the political significance of these affinal and matrilateral relations? Holy argues that they operate to give shape to political relations not simply at the lowest level of the local community (which both Evans-Pritchard and Holy describe as the "interpersonal" level) but also at the higher levels of larger tribal segments (1979a:34-41).25 However, they are not simply part of the static structure of political relations; the dynamic tension between patrilateral and affinal/matrilateral relations is precisely what drives Nuer political life. Moreover, the impetus to expand and to raid the Dinka for cattle is fueled by this process of establishing new bulls as nuclei of new communities. Gough notes that the "society was thus one in which leadership of local communities, sections, and tribes derived partly from hereditary advantages and partly from personal ambition and talents; and in which the raiding of other peoples provided avenues to upward mobility" (1971:118; see also Free 1988; Kelly 1985). Nuer expansion was driven, in part, by this dual movement that pushed brothers apart and pulled together those related matrilaterally and affinally. I think that last quote is particularly important because the author is arguing that the particular familial structures that seemed so strange to the British were part of the motivations for the Nuer to raid and invade their neighbours, not something tangential or unrelated. Because if you weren't able to accumulate the wealth that made you part of the higher tier of society, you weren't able to enforce your patriarchal power over your family unit. And to be frank I don't think a society composed of patriarchal family units based on hereditary status and wealth inequality is what most anarchists have in mind when they talk about some idealized anarchist society. I want to be clear, this is far from my area of expertise, but the impression I got from reading this article was that Nuer society was actually pretty far from an egalitarian or anarchist model as we would think of it today. It seems the British were unable to understand the hierarchies and structures of Nuer society because it was based on familial, ritual, and religious power rather than codified laws and their enforcement with violence, but the end result wasn't an anarchist society, it was one still organized around unequal and hierarchical structures of clan, family, gender, and wealth. And, further, it appears this was a society where those structures may have encouraged violent conflicts with others based on the motivations of securing family and economic power within patriarchal Nuer social hierarchies. vyelkin fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Sep 6, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 02:00
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A Typical Goon posted:Anarcho-communism is probably like the one ideology that is dumber than anarcho -capitalism, and that’s quite a hurdle At this point I'm fine with being called a tankie because I like the state because the alternative is that Furnaceface posted:Hey now, Jacques and Sophie did their part. Sorta surprised there's no téléfrançais vaporwave by nostalgic by-wait here we go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0nJax1V9bs Dreylad fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Sep 6, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 02:03
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A Typical Goon posted:capitalism is poo poo dude time to check your temporal privilege
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Sep 6, 2018 02:14
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Helsing posted:So excited for a racist xenophobic party that might actually attract media attention and prominent support! Based on my meticulous record of watching every West Wing episode ever and my solemn commitment to never learn anything from 2016 I have determined that this can mean only good things for the country. so did you like the reform party joining with the PCs or what
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Sep 6, 2018 03:31
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still waiting to hear how a Jim Prentice (pbuh) PC government would have staved off a far-right insurgency from Wildrose etc for the purposes of the hypothetical you get to assume Jim doesn't die a year into his term, (or maybe assume he does die, for funsies) but everything else stays the same Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Sep 6, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 03:33
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JawKnee posted:so did you like the reform party joining with the PCs or what The Reform party was a parasite that took over its host. They just wanted the name since having that made them much more electable outside Alberta. And Barrie. Because of course Barrie.
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Sep 6, 2018 03:34
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THC posted:still waiting to hear how a Jim Prentice (pbuh) PC government would have staved off a far-right insurgency from Wildrose etc The die was cast as soon as the wildrose became a strong party. As others have said, it is nice to get some NDPipeline government as a byproduct of the right wing split. But the UCP are now quite a bit more right than the former PCs and are the odds on favourite for government.
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Sep 6, 2018 05:08
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are they really that much further to the right though? these elements were a powerful faction of the PC party, before they became the Wildrose party, before finally becoming a powerful faction of the UCP party. Jim Prentice PC government gets wiped out in 2019 after failing to conjure a dozen pipelines into existence, or it's a minority and they get dissolved and wiped out even sooner. Or Prentice still dies after a year because the time gods demand a sacrifice, and the reeling party either merges with WR to save its rear end, or it selects another damp rag of a leader, and gets wiped out in 2019.
Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Sep 6, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 05:14
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THC posted:are they really that much further to the right though? these elements were a powerful faction of the PC party, before they became the Wildrose party, before finally becoming a powerful faction of the UCP party The Wildrose party was slightly less insane before Danielle Smith and her contingent crossed the floor leaving only the least sane people behind. Prentice said some things that needed to be said and he paid dearly for it, because Albertans and reality are not good friends, the reasonable faction of the APCs went straight down with him, and it allowed for the right wing in Alberta to be represented by the lunatics. Beyond that, Prentice inherited a party on the ropes because "Special Ed" Stelmach was just about the dumbest fucker to ever grace Canadian politics -- an Albertan conservative who managed to piss off the oil industry, I presume because his constituency was mainly people who gently caress livestock and drink more vodka than water -- creating the environment for a schism in the first place. God only knows for whom Notley is insufficiently right-wing, apart from the aforementioned sheepfuckers. I was skeptical at first but she has run a goddamn good government in the face of constant opposition from all sides.
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Sep 6, 2018 05:31
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vyelkin posted:This discussion made me very curious so I went and found a fairly recent journal article on interpretations of Nuer history and anthropology, and it critiques a lot of these ideas as rooted in British ideas of power that couldn't cope with the idea that a society might be hierarchically organized around a different conception of power. This is really interesting, thank you; if this represents current scholarship on early modern Nuer history, then obviously my understanding of the tribe is just plain wrong.
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Sep 6, 2018 11:12
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Helsing posted:Lmao This is the best Helsing post in this thread
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Sep 6, 2018 15:33
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Jagmeet Singh facing calls from many to reinstate Weir So, yeah, NDP is eating itself now. Well, this is just gonna be a poo poo sandwich election ain't it?
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Sep 6, 2018 23:47
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bunnyofdoom posted:Jagmeet Singh facing calls from many to reinstate Weir The party was never going anywhere without purging the vast majority of the old guard, who are still clinging on to power and dictating their direction. It still terrifies me a bit that this will just help out Scheere somehow though.
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Sep 7, 2018 00:16
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An emboldened ethnonationalist right and a distingrating left, yeah Helsing is spot on.
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Sep 7, 2018 01:29
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bunnyofdoom posted:Jagmeet Singh facing calls from many to reinstate Weir quote:the investigation, which found one claim of harassment and three claims of sexual harassment against Weir were sustained — all of which were deemed to be "on the less serious end of the spectrum," involving the MP standing too close or failing to read non-verbal cues in social settings. The gently caress?
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Sep 7, 2018 01:56
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if the NDP won't stand up for its sex pests, who will?!
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Sep 7, 2018 02:00
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