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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Didn't Walt have a meltdown later on where he declared that Jesse would never be as good as him? I think he genuinely thought of Jesse as a surrogate son and the one to carry on the Heisenberg legacy, but I always felt that Jesse was only the world's second-greatest meth cook in his mind. I don't recall that, but it's possible he might have said something like that in anger when Jesse tried to quit. But everything he was saying then was out of pure spite. quote:One thing that frustrated me in that whole scenario is that Gus never made it clear whether he was actually ordering the dealers to murder a child. After the fact he's more than happy to tell Walt that he would have killed those two on his own, and it always left me with the impression that they could have had a functional working relationship if they'd just went straight to Gus and told him that they don't work with child killers. Regardless of his actual intentions, Gus would've been more than happy to acid drum a couple of goons if it meant keeping Walt and Jesse in the fold. It's left ambiguous. Gus says something like, "Do you really think I would order the murder of a child?" and Walt coolly looks him in the eye and says, "I don't know. Would you?" And Gus doesn't answer. Later on, Gus threatens to kill Walt's entire family, specifically including his "infant daughter." Was Gus being serious? Or was he just trying to scare Walt? Again, we don't know. But we shouldn't underestimate him. He's not a nice guy.
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Sep 6, 2018 08:36
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I was hanging out with smythe the mod and I was telling him about a bad romance novel synopsis posted by a fb friend. It's about "lucipires". Demon Vampires in league with isis. in Montana The main character is named Cnut and smythe lost it because it reminded him of you and we spent all night going "SEE NUT!" I know that's not how to pronounced and i don't care
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Sep 6, 2018 08:45
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Cnut the Great posted:I don't recall that, but it's possible he might have said something like that in anger when Jesse tried to quit. But everything he was saying then was out of pure spite. That's true. I'm just not sure if Walt's spite or Walt's humility is ultimately the more honest expression of what he really thinks. I could go either way. Cnut the Great posted:It's left ambiguous. Gus says something like, "Do you really think I would order the murder of a child?" and Walt coolly looks him in the eye and says, "I don't know. Would you?" And Gus doesn't answer. I think Walt specifically says "I know better than to ever ask you a question like that," to which Gus responds with stony silence. I'm of the opinion that Gus wouldn't hurt an innocent (including any member of Walt's family), but the show definitely never gives you enough information to know for sure. I guess we might see how the German engineer shakes out, but my bet is that we'll be told he went back to Germany but never get a clip of him getting on a plane. We do know specifically that Walt is twisted enough to poison a child and forgive someone else for murdering a child in the spur of the moment, but that that is exactly as low as he'll go.
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Sep 6, 2018 08:50
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Cnut the Great posted:No it wasn't. Nothing about that moment--not the way it's written, not the way it's acted--indicate that it's anything other than Walt making a major concession against his own ego in order to win Jesse back. At that point Jesse can cook every bit as well as Walt can, and Walt knows it. He's not acting. Walt grooming Jesse as a successor is an angle I hadn't really thought about, I was more fixated on the surrogate father/son dynamic, but that is an interesting take. I fall more into the "Jesse's the second best cook" mindset as there are many instances of Walt losing his poo poo when Jesse talks about (or is proven to be) a good cook on his own, and that kind of behavior goes against the "I'm grooming the guy who will continue my meth legacy" interpretation. I think he may have had that intention of grooming him early in their relationship where he was acting more like a teacher, but Jesse's behavior probably put that thought out of his head, on top of them constantly getting into high-stress situations that needed to be resolved and Walt had bigger things on his mind at those times. I have to respectfully disagree though on your stance that Walt wasn't putting on an act when he started bickering with Gale. He's gotten Jesse to agree to come back into the fold and cook in the lab with him in return for half the money because he's a huge liability if he's left out there cooking on his own. To that end, he needs to start laying the groundwork for why Gale isn't working and Jesse is the better partner, so he starts nitpicking or manufacturing grievances. Jesse's just threatened to roll on him and is putting Walt's dream meth job in the Superlab at risk, at that moment Walt's just trying to keep himself safe and tossing Gale out to do it. I certainly recall him enjoying working with Gale quite a bit, that doesn't suddenly turn into real animosity because Jesse is forcing Walt to keep him close and in line, and likewise that situation doesn't foster Walt's respect for Jesse at that time. It seemed pretty cut and dry that Walt was creating issues with Gale when none were really there, and in my book that's an act.
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Sep 6, 2018 08:56
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Gus won't kill German Engi unless he has to. He didn't kill the Guatemalan cleaners because he would have made Walt personally dissolve them in acid
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Sep 6, 2018 08:57
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Alan Smithee posted:Gus won't kill German Engi unless he has to. He didn't kill the Guatemalan cleaners because he would have made Walt personally dissolve them in acid Good point. If he was going to kill them, he definitely would have maxed out their usefulness.
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Sep 6, 2018 09:02
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NowonSA posted:Walt grooming Jesse as a successor is an angle I hadn't really thought about, I was more fixated on the surrogate father/son dynamic, but that is an interesting take. I fall more into the "Jesse's the second best cook" mindset as there are many instances of Walt losing his poo poo when Jesse talks about (or is proven to be) a good cook on his own, and that kind of behavior goes against the "I'm grooming the guy who will continue my meth legacy" interpretation. I think he may have had that intention of grooming him early in their relationship where he was acting more like a teacher, but Jesse's behavior probably put that thought out of his head, on top of them constantly getting into high-stress situations that needed to be resolved and Walt had bigger things on his mind at those times. I think he was totally seeing Jesse as a successor but Walt would be the one setting the pace of his "learning" so whenever he showed that he was getting better quicker than Walt expected or whatever then he'd get pissed off. As to your second point, obviously yeah he was layering in the "I can't work with him" stuff in order to get Jesse back in and save his own rear end but I also think Gale definitely genuinely irked Walt at certain points, like with the singing, the references to scientists, the constant cheeriness and stuff. The writers were trying to evoke that feeling of imagining the perfect person to work alongside and then getting exactly that and then being like "oh god, this is definitely not quite what I thought it'd be". You could tell Walt sorta missed the grungey camaraderie of the early days cooking with Jesse and Gale was just not ever going to be that sort of guy.
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Sep 6, 2018 09:08
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There was some beef where Walt got steamed at Gale for using the wrong temperature, which was definitely Walt bullshitting and creating drama. I got the feeling that Walt, on some level, resented that Gale actually was his equal, but also was a much happier, well-rounded person in spite of being a total dweeb. He'd much rather be molding a broken man like Jesse than having a perfect equal partner and student.
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Sep 6, 2018 09:14
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Alan Smithee posted:Gus won't kill German Engi unless he has to. He didn't kill the Guatemalan cleaners because he would have made Walt personally dissolve them in acid I could have sworn there was at least one line about them being deported
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Sep 6, 2018 09:43
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Chadzok posted:I could have sworn there was at least one line about them being deported He sent them to Belize. I prefer the ambiguity of it. I don't believe Gus had them killed but it's possible. Likewise when the two dealers murder the kid in season 3(?) and set off the chain reaction that brings everything down. Gus doesn't deny or confirm he ordered the killing, which makes me enjoy it all the more. E: there's also the part at the warehouse where Gus looks the dealers in the eye and says "no more children" which could be taken either way.
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Sep 6, 2018 09:57
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Chadzok posted:I could have sworn there was at least one line about them being deported Tyrus tells Walt they’re ‘sending them on a bus back to Honduras’, but read into that how you will. E: beaten
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Sep 6, 2018 10:07
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One other thing I picked up with the french engineer is that he talks about his team of guys digging that tunnel whereas as far as I recall the german never talks about bringing in anyone else, on top of all his other obvious qualities. I don't think Gus would be happy bringing in someone else's team to do the job, he wants to vet everything and have full control.
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Sep 6, 2018 10:26
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I know it's probably not the same one but still when he said about building the tunnel my mind just went back to that clip we saw of a truck in an earlier episode driving through that wavy rear end, uneven tunnel.
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Sep 6, 2018 11:18
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Again if Gus killed the cleaning ladies he would have made Walt dissolve them in acid
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Sep 6, 2018 11:23
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I think there's no way a guy like Gus didn't already know his goons were using children. I think the whole conference where he told them to stop was an act for Walt and Jessie.
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Sep 6, 2018 14:29
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Ok, I'm up to episode 5 now (I was on like 2 the last time I posted) and I last talked about being more interested in the Jimmy/Kim plot, but I'm getting tired of Jimmy the bullshitter all over again (though painting the windows at the cell phone store was gold) so bring forth more Gus/Nacho/Mike. (e- Never mind, I'd be curious to see how Jimmy might use his new friends to spook the kids who mugged him. Just, you know, scare them, don't actually make them dead.) Takes No Damage posted:Think I tapped out of Justified after season 4 because it didn't seem to have any overall narrative anymore, and Goggins' character got a bit too comic book-y for me, much like the twins. Are the last 2 seasons a significant step up from 3-4? Between The Crowes and Ava in Oz, Season 5 is horrid, but bad Justified is still better than some shows' best so it gets a pass because it's essentially a vessel to set up the run to the finish in 6, which was fun if for no other reason than The Goonslinger. e- It's kind of like The Americans where 5 is kind of boring but lines you up for the final season. CBJSprague24 fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Sep 6, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 14:45
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Cnut the Great posted:
My point was that no matter how many times Victor or Jesse cooked, and even if they did fine, they still wouldn't have the chemical knowledge and flexibility that Walt has if equipment malfunctioned, environmental changes occurred, etc. Walt knows this and putting Jesse up there as his equal is pure posturing and getting on his good side in order to manipulate him further.
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Sep 6, 2018 14:57
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I think there's no way a guy like Gus didn't already know his goons were using children. I think the whole conference where he told them to stop was an act for Walt and Jessie. Oh yeah, but there's a difference between using kids and killing kids. How Gus feels about the latter is what's intentionally left ambiguous.
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Sep 6, 2018 15:13
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Mike's speech to Walt is entirely accurate, but for reasons he doesn't know. The Heisenberg case was closed until Walt got drunk and told Hank that his genius was still out there, at which point Hank did a deep dive into Gale and found out about the Pollos connection. As for what Mike actually knows, Jesse is irrelevant. What matters to Mike is that Walt didn't listen to him when he said "You won. Learn to take yes for an answer." Walt's entire deal in Season 4 is lashing out because he doesn't feel in control. I do believe that he genuinely thinks Gus is going to kill him at the first opportunity, but I think a huge part of Walt's reasoning is that he would kill Gus at the first opportunity, so obviously the reverse is true since in Walt's mind they're so similar. So yes, Walt and his ego hosed up everything and cost Mike his granddaughter and life's work. It's just that Mike didn't know the full extent of it.
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Sep 6, 2018 17:53
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Last Chance posted:My point was that no matter how many times Victor or Jesse cooked, and even if they did fine, they still wouldn't have the chemical knowledge and flexibility that Walt has if equipment malfunctioned, environmental changes occurred, etc. This. I'm surprised to see so many takes about Walt considering Jesse his one true equal and partner. I interpret it as Walt knows Jesse will NEVER be as good as he is, so he can keep the dominant teacher/student thing going on forever. Gale legitimately could become his equal at some point, but as others pointed out the only reason Walt didn't happily work with him forever was to save Jesse from himself. There's specifically a montage of Walt and Gale cranking out meth and drinking supercoffee and playing chess in the lab, I would think that's the absolute highlight of the entire series as far as Walt's concerned. If Jesse had moved to Alaska and built boxes right then they'd probably still be down there making poison for people who don't care. And the Walt/Gus scene people are talking about was something like Gus: Are you asking me if I murdered a child? Walt: I would never ask you that. Gus: Good. But yeah still ambiguous.
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Sep 6, 2018 17:59
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The super lab being a special construction project makes no sense to me. It's too loving huge for that and also multiple stories high. I always imagined that they had re-purposed some old parking garage or warehouse or something for it. Making that thing so huge extends the build time by years and massively complicates the whole ordeal.
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Sep 6, 2018 20:58
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Y'all are unable to see how abusive Walt is to Jesse and it's equal parts upsetting and predictable.
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Sep 6, 2018 21:43
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Die Sexmonster! posted:Y'all are unable to see how abusive Walt is to Jesse and it's equal parts upsetting and predictable. Yeah it's a little alarming to me to see people saying stuff like "Walt was preparing Jesse to be his successor" which seems very naive
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Sep 6, 2018 21:59
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Walt wanted Jesse to do well, because that reflects well on Walt as a teacher/mentor, but not surpass him.
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Sep 6, 2018 22:33
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:The super lab being a special construction project makes no sense to me. It's too loving huge for that and also multiple stories high. I always imagined that they had re-purposed some old parking garage or warehouse or something for it. Making that thing so huge extends the build time by years and massively complicates the whole ordeal. The superlab at all makes no sense. What you gonna do
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Sep 6, 2018 22:41
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I think Walt specifically says "I know better than to ever ask you a question like that," to which Gus responds with stony silence. I'm of the opinion that Gus wouldn't hurt an innocent (including any member of Walt's family), but the show definitely never gives you enough information to know for sure. I guess we might see how the German engineer shakes out, but my bet is that we'll be told he went back to Germany but never get a clip of him getting on a plane. Gus says very explicitly to his dealers, "No more children." We see nothing in the show that suggests Gus was unhappy about his guys killing Tomas. We also have no reason to think the dealers acted against Gus' intended handling of the situation.
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Sep 6, 2018 22:53
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The big issue is that Gale could easily be almost as good as Walt, and Gus trusts him. Once Gale learns Walt's secret formula, Walt is expendable, as Gus could live with the slight drop in quality. Gus would never let Jesse run the lab on his own, and Walt knows this.
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Sep 6, 2018 22:53
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:The super lab being a special construction project makes no sense to me. It's too loving huge for that and also multiple stories high. I always imagined that they had re-purposed some old parking garage or warehouse or something for it. Making that thing so huge extends the build time by years and massively complicates the whole ordeal. It's specifically an industrial laundromat because that gives justifications to big trucks rolling in and out all day and them getting huge shipments of chemicals delivered. How you gonna explain all that activity around an 'empty' parking garage? Yes it's a little bit supervillain secret lair-y, but compared to airplanes and terminator twins it's not that hard to take. Konstantin posted:The big issue is that Gale could easily be almost as good as Walt, and Gus trusts him. Once Gale learns Walt's secret formula, Walt is expendable, as Gus could live with the slight drop in quality. Gus would never let Jesse run the lab on his own, and Walt knows this. "You're gonna need me." Most people think at least half of Victor getting boxcuttered was out of frustration in actually needing Walt now that Gale was gone, and wanting to slap him in the face with something as 'revenge'. At least as much as getting spotted at the apartment.  I am made low by the Waltriarchy.
Takes No Damage fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 6, 2018 23:54
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They couldn't convert a building that already had a substantial lower level, because Gus does not want it on the public record that his laundry even has a basement.
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Sep 6, 2018 23:57
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Takes No Damage posted:"Your boss is gonna need me." FTFY 
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Sep 7, 2018 00:18
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Guys guys When Gus is threatening Walt in the desert I think I heard Mike's voice even though he's not there
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Sep 7, 2018 07:05
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Guys. I think the voice on the phone when the French engineer first showed up was Mike's. 
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Sep 7, 2018 10:08
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Takes No Damage posted:There's specifically a montage of Walt and Gale cranking out meth and drinking supercoffee and playing chess in the lab, I would think that's the absolute highlight of the entire series as far as Walt's concerned. If Jesse had moved to Alaska and built boxes right then they'd probably still be down there making poison for people who don't care. Once again I really want to see an alt-universe episode that's just Salud but with Gale never being killed, Jesse just peacing out or being given a payoff by Walt to just leave town forever before he gets pissed at Gus' dealers, and Walt being compelled to go down to Mexico instead of Jesse. I mean Walt being maximum  as he walks them through his cook, probably hamming it up and putting on a classic Heisenberg act that he's totally fine with being in Mexico forever, etc. I'm a fan of the show Billions as well and there's an episode where two high-power characters who had been constantly working against each other team up and just everything flows super well and they get out of a tough situation, and I would have loved to see Gus and Walt on the same side and working on a more complex problem than "here's an amazing lab now go cook Meth in it."
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Sep 7, 2018 10:47
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Opinions on ozark? I'm 3 eps in and it's alright. Never would have been made without BB since it's the obvious bite. Sure as hell not better as a friend made it out to be
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Sep 7, 2018 11:41
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Alan Smithee posted:Again if Gus killed the cleaning ladies he would have made Walt dissolve them in acid Why would he have made Walt do it? Walt was just the cook. The Human Crouton posted:It wasn't legal because of the way he obtained the phones. He was overcharging for phones during the day, doing something with receipts to cover that up, and then using that extra money to buy the phones at regular price for himself so he could sell those at a premium as well. He faked purchases to get the phones so that he could resell at a profit. I think he actually paid for them though because didn't he put money into the register?
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Sep 7, 2018 11:52
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To teach him a lesson And he sure as hell didn't dissolve victor himself
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Sep 7, 2018 11:55
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Alan Smithee posted:Opinions on ozark? I'm 3 eps in and it's alright. Never would have been made without BB since it's the obvious bite. Sure as hell not better as a friend made it out to be I enjoy Ozark, but it's rough around the edges. It's missing that weird, dark whimsy that comes with a Gilligan / Gould production.
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Sep 7, 2018 12:00
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I liked Ozark a lot, but it's only similar to Breaking Bad in concept. Stylistically they are quite different. I wouldn't say Ozark is amazing or anything, but it's definitely enjoyable. Ruth is a great character.
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Sep 7, 2018 12:35
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Hakkesshu posted:I liked Ozark a lot, but it's only similar to Breaking Bad in concept. Stylistically they are quite different. I wouldn't say Ozark is amazing or anything, but it's definitely enjoyable. Ruth is a great character. This is all true.
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Sep 7, 2018 14:44
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NowonSA posted:Walt grooming Jesse as a successor is an angle I hadn't really thought about, I was more fixated on the surrogate father/son dynamic, but that is an interesting take. I fall more into the "Jesse's the second best cook" mindset as there are many instances of Walt losing his poo poo when Jesse talks about (or is proven to be) a good cook on his own, and that kind of behavior goes against the "I'm grooming the guy who will continue my meth legacy" interpretation. I think he may have had that intention of grooming him early in their relationship where he was acting more like a teacher, but Jesse's behavior probably put that thought out of his head, on top of them constantly getting into high-stress situations that needed to be resolved and Walt had bigger things on his mind at those times. There's no one to put on an act for when he starts getting irritated with Gale. The only person he's manufacturing grievances for is himself, so he can self-justify replacing Gale with Jesse. Since he already has a great practical justification (keeping Jesse from snitching) there's really no reason for him to do this. The reality, as with most things Walt does, is that there are a confluence of reasons. The show intentionally offers Walt an easier out when Saul suggests they just ice Jesse. Walt doesn't do that. Instead, he offers Jesse a 50/50 partnership and a rare acknowledgment of professional respect. It's easy to tell when Walt's lying in Breaking Bad even if the other character's can't tell--there's a weaselly, ostentatious, overly sincere element to it. There's no hint of that in his interaction with Jesse in the hospital room. He actually sounds like a human being for once. Die Sexmonster! posted:Y'all are unable to see how abusive Walt is to Jesse and it's equal parts upsetting and predictable. Last Chance posted:Yeah it's a little alarming to me to see people saying stuff like "Walt was preparing Jesse to be his successor" which seems very naive How the hell do you get the idea any of us are ignoring that? The fact that he wants to groom Jesse to act as an extension of himself after he's gone is exactly why Walt goes to such great lengths to manipulate and control him. He has a genuine emotional attachment to Jesse, but it's a possessive, controlling one. It's a twisted father/son relationship. It's like y'all are completely unable to see nuance and human dimensionality in characters you're not supposed to like. e: Last Chance posted:My point was that no matter how many times Victor or Jesse cooked, and even if they did fine, they still wouldn't have the chemical knowledge and flexibility that Walt has if equipment malfunctioned, environmental changes occurred, etc. He never says that about Jesse though. He says that about Victor. Victor is not the same character as Jesse. There are so many times in the show when Walt would have been way better off (from a professional standpoint) just cutting Jesse loose, but he never does that. He goes to great lengths and puts himself and his entire criminal livelihood at great risk to pull Jesse's rear end out of the fire. Even at his greatest descent into the depths of villainy, he lets Jesse live far longer than he would have let anyone else who decided to cross him. This isn't to say Walt is a good person or that his relationship with Jesse was beneficial or helpful. It's to say that Walt felt a genuine attachment and fondness for Jesse. It's this attachment that drives him to manipulate him the way he does. If all he wanted was some pliable young guy to boss around, he would have kicked Jesse to the curb the moment Todd came into the picture. Instead, he kicks and screams trying to get Jesse to stay, and only turns to Todd after he fails. Jesse is one of the last tethers tying Walt to humanity, and he drives him away. Walt becoming satisfied with the sociopathic automaton Todd and abandoning the adversarial but human relationship he had with Jesse is emblematic of a change in Walt's character. Walt is a character who changes. For some reason a whole lot of people really want to deny that and make the show much lesser as a result. Takes No Damage posted:This. I'm surprised to see so many takes about Walt considering Jesse his one true equal and partner. I interpret it as Walt knows Jesse will NEVER be as good as he is, so he can keep the dominant teacher/student thing going on forever. Gale legitimately could become his equal at some point, but as others pointed out the only reason Walt didn't happily work with him forever was to save Jesse from himself. There's specifically a montage of Walt and Gale cranking out meth and drinking supercoffee and playing chess in the lab, I would think that's the absolute highlight of the entire series as far as Walt's concerned. If Jesse had moved to Alaska and built boxes right then they'd probably still be down there making poison for people who don't care. You yourself just illustrated exactly that take doesn't make sense. The series provides Walt with someone who is clearly his rough intellectual equal (while still being subservient to him, of course) and Walt has no problem with it. But he'd still rather work with Jesse, someone who despite his lack of formal education is a more innately talented cook than Gale and who, unlike Gale, is constantly causing problems and giving Walt pushback. Walt just plain likes Jesse. Even Hank immediately understands this. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 15:34
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