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John Kerry seems blissfully unaware of the fact that his soul is imperiled every day he refuses to publicly apologize for getting Bush reelected.Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I guess it depends on where you draw the line on "warning signs" and "confirmations". For example, Hillary's "America is Already Great" motto pretty much confirmed every negative thing I thought about her. "Hope And Change" doesn't exactly scream "I'm a moderately-right centrist" Yep. For all that Obama is a scumfuck, Hillary's complete inability to understand what a shithole this country is made Obama's lies seem great by conspiracy. Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I guess it depends on where you draw the line on "warning signs" and "confirmations". For example, Hillary's "America is Already Great" motto pretty much confirmed every negative thing I thought about her. "Hope And Change" doesn't exactly scream "I'm a moderately-right centrist" That's fair. I agree 100% about the already great comment from Hillary. It really illuminated her lack of understanding of the fundamental issues. Obama using rhetoric to surpass his own ideals isn't necessarily a bad thing. We want people who shoot for more. The issue is that Obama was only talking about those things and not doing the action part in a sufficient way. He was completely undermined by his appeals to decorum and bipartisanship. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Also he's evil because of drones See that I won't argue with. Cerebral Bore posted:It's an interesting world that the centrists live in where people not pretending that the guy who handed over the country to fascism on a silver platter was some kind of fantastic guy and a political mastermind is the epitome of rotten cynicism. EdithUpwards posted:Trump is his legacy. I don't agree with this at all. Trump is the republican legacy, and Obama was inadequate at stopping it.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:31
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Otoh, and this point was largely made elsewhere, Obama's ability to identify these very real problems and then lie to your loving face in service of maintaining them is also what makes him a different brand of dangerous.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:33
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I don't agree with this at all. Trump is the republican legacy, and Obama was inadequate at stopping it. Obama destroyed black wealth, his healthcare fix was an inadequate right-wing giveaway to the insurance industry, he strengthened American imperialism, he pushed more middle-class destroying free trade policies. Can you imagine what this country would look like if he'd actually gotten his Social Security cuts passed? His passivity destroyed faith in institutions and left a vacuum that fascists would easily fill.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:43
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Obama destroyed black wealth, his healthcare fix was an inadequate right-wing giveaway to the insurance industry, he strengthened American imperialism, he pushed more middle-class destroying free trade policies. Can you imagine what this country would look like if he'd actually gotten his Social Security cuts passed? His passivity destroyed faith in institutions and left a vacuum that fascists would easily fill. I still blame the fascists more than I blame the man that preceded them. I feel like it is important not to forget that part. His failures will forever be his, but I am not sure who would have been capable of doing better at that time. We ( i believe) faired better with Obama than with Romney or McCain, or Clinton. Do you disagree? Who would have done a better job? I agree that we can't afford another Obama, but I am not going to tear him down for failing to prevent a fascist wave that was likely coming no matter who was in office.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:50
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Like I said, now that you explained it, I think that's totally valid. I don't get upset about it because it is expected. If this was Bernie giving reagan a blow job, it would muster more of an emotional response, but we KNEW what obama was when we elected him. He was a centrist through and through. Hopefully the next person we elect won't have those issues. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I agree that his campaign fluffed the poo poo out of his bonafides, it seems a bit disingenuous to complain he didn't live up to those ideals when you yourself acknowledge you saw right through them. Do I think he misled people about his ideals, yeah. Do I think he's evil for it? No Do I have to explain the rather obvious contradiction here? EdithUpwards posted:Yep. For all that Obama is a scumfuck, Hillary's complete inability to understand what a shithole this country is made Obama's lies seem great by conspiracy. "Hope and Change" is a message that only challengers and outsiders can use. Hillary was an influential and powerful figure in the establishment of the party of the incumbent, and spent some time in Obama's cabinet. Even if she had tried to convince anyone that her policies would be a radical departure from Obama's, no one would have believed her. After eight years of being a faithful Obama supporter, it was way too late for her to suddenly start to pretend she was against his policies.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:That's very revisionist IMO. His 2008 slogan was "Hope and Change", he portrayed himself as a guy who was going to change the political system, that's why he got such an overwhelming response. People were already sick of poo poo in 2008, and now after the crash and his pathetic response they are (and remain) absolutely apoplectic. yeah i was some weird hawkish neocon since my political awakening was 9/11 but i'd been moving ever leftward for a couple years leading up to obama and he was the first president i voted for (third time i could've). i thought he was going to radically transform the system in the aftermath of the collapse. i'm not alone in seeing bernie sanders as a sort of do-over. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 20:56
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Widening the lense a bit, the incredibly  Clinton campaign was also unfolding in all its poisonous glory which made it very easy to not pay attention to the warning signs Obama was sending out.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:01
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:'inject it into my loving veins' is a phase used to indicate "this is good poo poo". How is anyone supposed to take it as anything but that? From what I've seen, it is almost always used to indicate "look at this thing that is so dumb/awful that it crosses over to being great and entertaining" PT6A posted:I think as a society we need to stop drawing such a distinction between sexual abuse of children and other forms of child abuse, like physical and/or emotional abuse such as this incident. People are appropriately outraged about the sexual abuse of children in general, but too many people lack the same instinctual revulsion toward those other forms of abuse and it needs to change, because abusing children in any way whatsoever is disgusting and abhorrent. I think it'll be tough for attitudes to change in this way, but at the very least I definitely agree that they should legally be treated the same way.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:05
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Main Paineframe posted:Do I have to explain the rather obvious contradiction here? I feel it is nuanced enough to not be a contradiction. It was obvious to people paying attention that Obama was not going to radically alter the system, His campaign messaging lead people to believe he was. That was a grave mistake in the long term People on these very forums insisted he was some left leaning candidate , but others tried to explain that he was a moderate using lofty rhetoric to get elected. It was a contradiction if you had the wool pulled over your eyes, but not if you actually understood reality. For people that pride yourselves on "pattern recognition" the fact that this pattern eludes you is amusing. Politicians use rhetoric to get elected, the fact that you use that rhetoric to set your expectations is both a flaw with the politician and yourselves. Even Bernie Sanders is guilty of this, but for some reason he doesn't get poo poo on for it, or blamed for our current hellscape.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:08
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I still blame the fascists more than I blame the man that preceded them. I feel like it is important not to forget that part. His failures will forever be his, but I am not sure who would have been capable of doing better at that time. We ( i believe) faired better with Obama than with Romney or McCain, or Clinton. Do you disagree? I can't argue a counterfactual and don't find these sorts of "well would Theoretical McCain have been worse than Real Obama?" questions useful. It's like, I don't know? Maybe Johnny tries his war poo poo with Iran and gets the 5th fleet sent to the bottom of the Gulf courtesy of Iran's Sunfire missiles and the public turns on him and his admin and American Imperialism in general? Maybe he's loathed and hated by everyone who isn't a Republican and leads to a Blue Wave in 2010 instead of a total Blue Collapse? Who can say? It's not useful.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:12
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I feel it is nuanced enough to not be a contradiction. It was obvious to people paying attention that Obama was not going to radically alter the system, His campaign messaging lead people to believe he was. That was a grave mistake in the long term People on these very forums insisted he was some left leaning candidate , but others tried to explain that he was a moderate using lofty rhetoric to get elected. It was a contradiction if you had the wool pulled over your eyes, but not if you actually understood reality. For people that pride yourselves on "pattern recognition" the fact that this pattern eludes you is amusing. Politicians use rhetoric to get elected, the fact that you use that rhetoric to set your expectations is both a flaw with the politician and yourselves. i'm fairly confident in saying that Obama was not solely elected by posters on the Something Awful forums if he was a moderate who lied and pretended to be a leftist in order to get elected, then it's safe to say that many people who voted for him didn't know what he stood for
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Sep 7, 2018 21:15
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:
How is that disingenuous? Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's fair. I agree 100% about the already great comment from Hillary. It really illuminated her lack of understanding of the fundamental issues. Obama using rhetoric to surpass his own ideals isn't necessarily a bad thing. We want people who shoot for more. The issue is that Obama was only talking about those things and not doing the action part in a sufficient way. He was completely undermined by his appeals to decorum and bipartisanship. This is way too generous. Obama actively worked against his own promises after he was in office. The really blatant one would be trade: Obama campaigned against the South Korea trade deal that he later used as a template for the TPP, a policy he was pushing really hard even longer after it became clear it was a political liability going into 2016. There are plenty of other examples if we want to actually examine his legacy but I like to point to trade because unlike issues like Gitmo there is absolutely no way you can blame Obama's trade policies on the Republicans. It was 100% his own self inflicted wound. Of course we can find a similar pattern in other places like entitlement reform or foreign policy. The distance between Obama's rhetoric and his policies wasn't some kind of mistake. They were lies designed to win electoral support for an agenda that key democratic constituencies didn't actually support. Given the huge stakes involved that seems pretty evil to me, albeit in the "banality" of evil sense of the word. quote:I don't agree with this at all. Trump is the republican legacy, and Obama was inadequate at stopping it. Trump is Obama's legacy as well. That's what people don't seem to get. The Democrats were in power for 16 of the 24 years leading up to Trump's election.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:16
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I can't argue a counterfactual and don't find these sorts of "well would Theoretical McCain have been worse than Real Obama?" questions useful. It's like, I don't know? Maybe Johnny tries his war poo poo with Iran and gets the 5th fleet sent to the bottom of the Gulf courtesy of Iran's Sunfire missiles and the public turns on him and his admin and American Imperialism in general? Maybe he's loathed and hated by everyone who isn't a Republican and leads to a Blue Wave in 2010 instead of a total Blue Collapse? Who can say? It's not useful. That's fair. I still maintain that the actual fascists hold more blame than Obama. Main Paineframe posted:i'm fairly confident in saying that Obama was not solely elected by posters on the Something Awful forums I would take it as a good sign for today that Obama ran leftward but failed to deliver on it. The public seems more ready for a real leftist candidate today than ever before. Obama was a wasted opportunity to get those leftist ideals that much sooner. Perhaps if he did more we wouldn't have Donald Trump today. I somehow doubt it though. That fascist wave was building no matter what.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:25
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's fair. I still maintain that the actual fascists hold more blame than Obama. Oh god just fire all the liberals into the sun you people are worthless.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:30
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I would take it as a good sign for today that Obama ran leftward but failed to deliver on it. The public seems more ready for a real leftist candidate today than ever before. Obama was a wasted opportunity to get those leftist ideals that much sooner. Perhaps if he did more we wouldn't have Donald Trump today. I somehow doubt it though. That fascist wave was building no matter what. The fascist wave is a direct response to the fact that poo poo sucks. If Obama had made things not terrible, there would have been no fascist wave. Obama was our Macron.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's fair. I still maintain that the actual fascists hold more blame than Obama. If you're so certain a fascist wave was coming no matter what, care to explain how this was some inevitability?
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Sep 7, 2018 21:32
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Wow HY!L continues to suck utterly at any kind of pattern recognition at all with a political analysis toolset that begins and ends with "hmmm, yes that is a thing that happened" and "no, that is not a thing that happened". What a shocking turn of events. HY!L do you just stand at your window every morning overcome with joy that the sun has come up? Jesus Christ, dude :smdh:
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Sep 7, 2018 21:32
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There has been a really ugly authoritarian/xenophobic current running through US politics for a long time (forever, arguably) but the specific sequence of events where a Republican in 2016 wins loving Michigan was not some unavoidable tragedy it was the direct result of Obama and Clinton destroying the electoral foundations of their own party so that big money donors and the Davos set would say nice things about them.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:35
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hobotrashcanfires posted:If you're so certain a fascist wave was coming no matter what, care to explain how this was some inevitability? 35 years of the GOP pushing for it? Main Paineframe posted:The fascist wave is a direct response to the fact that poo poo sucks. If Obama had made things not terrible, there would have been no fascist wave. Obama was our Macron. It's possible , but in no way guaranteed. In the same way that Obama not being elected could have led to a different result. we just don't know. Fox news and the GOP mache was going to push for facism no matter who was elected. I think you underestimate ho w far gone 35% of the country really is if you think they would have accepted any help from the black man president. Helsing posted:Oh god just fire all the liberals into the sun you people are worthless. Wait, so Obama is more responsible for facism than the actual fascists? Do you guys forget that there is an active movement pushing for it in this country, and it's not just because the first black president was a moderate republican.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:36
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Helsing posted:The Democrats were in power for 16 of the 24 years leading up to Trump's election. It is fair to say, that during the times when they did have (more or less) control of the government, they proved themselves incapable of wielding that power, which (according the HY!L school of political thought) means *shuffles papers* let's see here... *peers at notes* ah yes: "absolutely nothing, because it is not a thing happening right exactly now and in unambiguous terms."
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Sep 7, 2018 21:36
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Helsing posted:There has been a really ugly authoritarian/xenophobic current running through US politics for a long time (forever, arguably) but the specific sequence of events where a Republican in 2016 wins loving Michigan was not some unavoidable tragedy it was the direct result of Obama and Clinton destroying the electoral foundations of their own party so that big money donors and the Davos set would say nice things about them. I don't think this is being questioned. It just seems like you put more responsibility for facism existing on the black man who was president than the fascists themselves and the people that actually supported them. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Wow HY!L continues to suck utterly at any kind of pattern recognition at all with a political analysis toolset that begins and ends with "hmmm, yes that is a thing that happened" and "no, that is not a thing that happened". What a shocking turn of events. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:It's not quite fair to say that they were in power for 16 of the 24 years. They held the Presidency for those years. Do you have anything useful to say or discuss, or did you just stop by to poo poo on your keyboard?
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Sep 7, 2018 21:40
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Wait, so Obama is more responsible for facism than the actual fascists? Do you guys forget that there is an active movement pushing for it in this country, and it's not just because the first black president was a moderate republican. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Do you have anything useful to say or discuss, or did you just stop by to poo poo on your keyboard?
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Sep 7, 2018 21:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That fascist wave was building no matter what. My dude, the fascist wave was building horrendously in America in the 30s, incredibly so, they even had their own Alex Jones character with a huge reach, and FDR defused it by showing the government could help everyday people and get things done, to the point where black Americans completely flipped allegiance from the Republicans (the party that freed them from slavery) to Dems even though the Dems explicitly coded racism into the New Deal. The fascist wave is not some independent phenomenon, it builds when power vacuums are created and ordinary people feel powerless. That's when they start to crave a strongman.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:35 years of the GOP pushing for it? If you want to claim an unstoppable fascist wave was coming no matter what, you're gonna have to give better answers than that. However, at least it opens the door to this: Obama posted:"The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican," he told Noticias Univision 23 in a White House interview. You've swayed me, yes, all of the Republicans bear a lot of responsibility for it.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:43
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Main Paineframe posted:Do I have to explain the rather obvious contradiction here? There's no contradiction for liberals. Ideals aren't something to be built towards, they're unreal objects of worship that occasionally intrude when the stars align on important dates or sanctify the Great Men.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:43
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's fair. I still maintain that the actual fascists hold more blame than Obama. This is dumb, Obama holds blame for his own actions and inactions. Obama did many things without Republican input. If Republicans hypothetically didn't exist (and were all magically replaced with Obama clones or something), the American people would still be experiencing most of the problems they're currently experiencing. It's important to hold Obama/Democrats directly responsible (as opposed to merely blaming them for not adequately opposing Republicans), because to do otherwise just implies that somehow removing/defeating Republicans will solve most of our problems (which obviously isn't true). edit: Also there's the "fascism could have been avoidable if a good alternative to Republicans existed" point other people have made. It isn't just some magical force of nature that would have existed regardless of the circumstances. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:35 years of the GOP pushing for it? There is little notable difference between contemporary Democrats and Republicans 20+ years ago ideologically (other than some social issues were Democrats were also bad 10+ years ago). Democrats and Republicans are more similar than they are different, even if there are very real differences between them. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 21:45
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I actually disagree. If beating the Republicans was a good step towards improving things, the Democrats would do everything in their power to keep from doing so, and they have, so therefore they're directly to blame. A minor distinction, but an important one.
Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 21:54
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I don't think this is being questioned. It just seems like you put more responsibility for facism existing on the black man who was president than the fascists themselves and the people that actually supported them. Why blame your enemy for being your enemy? Obviously the Republicans are monsters and we can expect them to continue to be monsters. But this is like a lawyer who just totally hosed up his case saying "what are you so mad at me for? You should be pissed at that other guys lawyer for being me so badly!"
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Sep 7, 2018 21:55
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Found: raw footage of a Democratic consultant explaining the most recent election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpjieIRRAp8
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Sep 7, 2018 21:56
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:You can easily draw a line in the sand with fascists, though. Straight-up fascists are, in a certain and clearly obvious sense, worse than centrists. Obviously. However it's the centrists that keep sabotaging the only remotely effective means and hope for actually defeating fascism, and for no other reason than to satisfy their own ridiculous egos. So you have to beat back the centrists and consign them to the ash heap of history first, because until you do that you don't have a shot at the fascists in the first place. I get that you have to get rid of Neville before you can fight Hitler. I don't think Obama can be compared 100% to an appeasement policy, but there are valid comparisons for sure. Do you think the voting populace was prepared in 2008 or 2012 for someone fighting the growing fascism in america? I think it require a precipitating event, and for many it was 2016. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:The fact that I appeared to hit a nerve actually means you suck slightly less than I thought. Don't get too encouraged as we're talking about fractions of a percent here, but know that you might actually be gaining some self awareness. Try to do it faster.  Megaman's Jockstrap posted:My dude, the fascist wave was building horrendously in America in the 30s, incredibly so, they even had their own Alex Jones character with a huge reach, and FDR defused it by showing the government could help everyday people and get things done, to the point where black Americans completely flipped allegiance from the Republicans (the party that freed them from slavery) to Dems even though the Dems explicitly coded racism into the New Deal. Right, which is why it was a wasted opportunity for obama to not fulfill the ideals he ran on, and ended up being a moderate republican. I don't think this is in dispute. The problem seems to be how much do we want to blame Obama for it vs how much we want to blame the actual people pushing for fascism, as well as the people that failed to see it in time (Hello, that's me). I'll take my part of the blame, and Obama should have his, but the real problem is the fascism. Ytlaya posted:This is dumb, Obama holds blame for his own actions and inactions. Obama did many things without Republican input. If Republicans hypothetically didn't exist (and were all magically replaced with Obama clones or something), the American people would still be experiencing most of the problems they're currently experiencing. Right, but what about the people that actively want fascism. they aren't a small percentage of the GOP at this point. I get that some portion of the GOP and trump voters could be pulled towards good things if given the opportunity, but there is a subset that will gladly go fash. Ytlaya posted:
Are you still pulling a "Both sides are the same" argument? I get that the corporate corruption side is the same, but the end goals of the base of each party are two very different things.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:04
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Right, but what about the people that actively want fascism. they aren't a small percentage of the GOP at this point. I get that some portion of the GOP and trump voters could be pulled towards good things if given the opportunity, but there is a subset that will gladly go fash. You know full well that literally everyone posting in this thread realizes that Republicans are terrible. They have always been and there is no significant difference between the way they were 10-20-40 years ago and the way they are now. I'm not sure how that is even remotely relevant to the topic of the supposed opposition party also being a bunch of right-wing assholes who are fine with loving over the poor and minority groups. edit: It's also important to keep in mind that, while Democrats are not actively seeking a fascist outcome, they also aren't particularly opposed to it (and they undeniably would prefer it over socialism). They would prefer that the status quo just continue forever, but they're also not going to make a huge fuss over fascists. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 22:11
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Right, which is why it was a wasted opportunity for obama to not fulfill the ideals he ran on, and ended up being a moderate republican. I don't think this is in dispute. The problem seems to be how much do we want to blame Obama for it vs how much we want to blame the actual people pushing for fascism, as well as the people that failed to see it in time (Hello, that's me). I'll take my part of the blame, and Obama should have his, but the real problem is the fascism. Wait, why are some of our nominal allies saying a little bit of fascism is okay, and why is HY!L admonishing me for pointing out the fact of it when what I should really be focusing on is the fascism?
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Sep 7, 2018 22:12
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:
I mean there's also the "never stop dropping bombs on those folks over there" thing. Which a lot of dem voters are perfectly content to ignore, sadly.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:14
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Also stepping back a bit but Obama also does not get enough poo poo for building up an incredible domestic surveillance apparatus that he then handed to Trump, even going so far as to increase its powers after the election with Trump coming in.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:16
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I get that you have to get rid of Neville before you can fight Hitler. I don't think Obama can be compared 100% to an appeasement policy, but there are valid comparisons for sure. Do you think the voting populace was prepared in 2008 or 2012 for someone fighting the growing fascism in america? I think it require a precipitating event, and for many it was 2016. They sure as gently caress were up for somebody unfucking the country in 2008 and that's why they elected Obama, ya dingus. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Are you still pulling a "Both sides are the same" argument? I get that the corporate corruption side is the same, but the end goals of the base of each party are two very different things. In case you haven't noticed the policy of both parties is trying to appease the Republican base to a greater or lesser degree.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:20
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I think the "Obama: good or bad?" debate can't really be had without referencing Ta-Nehisi Coates's article on his presidency:quote:Obama’s greatest misstep was born directly out of his greatest insight. Only Obama, a black man who emerged from the best of white America, and thus could sincerely trust white America, could be so certain that he could achieve broad national appeal. And yet only a black man with that same biography could underestimate his opposition’s resolve to destroy him. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/my-president-was-black/508793/ Obama, for better or worse, had to strategically embrace radical optimism and aggressive bipartisanship, and had to totally reject anger and confrontation, because that was the only path a black kid in America had to success at the kind of level Obama was aiming for. But that very same willful optimism blinded him, both to the actual evil of his opponents and to the possibility that consensus and bipartisanship could lead to radically wrong places. Obama was probably the best President we could have gotten at the time. It should have surprised no one that the response to a black president was right-wing insanity, though; race has always driven this country to insanity (see: the civil war).
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Sep 7, 2018 22:20
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That is entirely too charitable to a rich dude who made himself richer at the expense of millions of poor dudes.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:24
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And in general profited off his own reinforcing of white supremacy at home and, particularly, abroad. But Coates has always turned a blind eye to Obama's imperialism.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:29
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Ah yes, Obama was hoodwinked by evil whitey. This is why he immediately ran off to parasail on Richard Branson's private Billionaire island, and started buckraking in speeches, rather than, you know, doing anything involved with stopping Trump, the evil kaiju monster that the white psyche manifested to destroy him.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:37
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