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Holdo didn't share her plan with the total fuckup that just lost their entire bomber fleet while disobeying direct orders, indirectly leading to Leia being incapacitated. If I had to nitpick, my question is why Holdo didn't just execute Poe on the spot.FlamingLiberal posted:I really didn't like the way it ended because it felt like the story was wrapped up for now, to the point where we would need a time jump or something. The entire Resistance/Republic fleet is gone, there are like 12 people left in Leia's group on the Falcon, and nobody responded to their distress calls. It feels like you would need more than one movie to wrap up everything since it feels like it's almost starting from scratch again. I thought the film was heavily alluding to the idea that there's not going to be a military solution to the problem. If it's about the First Order imploding in a frenzy of internal backstabbing that would work.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:24
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Fangz posted:I thought the film was heavily alluding to the idea that there's not going to be a military solution to the problem. If it's about the First Order imploding in a frenzy of internal backstabbing that would work. The most disappointing thing to me in TLJ was the fakeout of Kylo and Rey working together (whether it was just to destroy everyone, or Kylo turning away from the dark side). Now THAT would have been a very interesting idea if they had followed through on it for the next film. Instead it's (presumably) more of Kylo trying to hunt down Rey and her buddies.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:27
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FlamingLiberal posted:I mean, maybe? But now the First Order is being run by a wacked-out, pissed off Kylo Ren, so I can't imagine how that would work. .... But that's exactly why the First Order seems likely to fall apart? Snoke was the manipulator, cleverly playing people off against each other, commanding the respect of the disparate factions. Now the First Order is being run by a manchild who everyone fears but *also disrespects*. quote:The most disappointing thing to me in TLJ was the fakeout of Kylo and Rey working together (whether it was just to destroy everyone, or Kylo turning away from the dark side). Now THAT would have been a very interesting idea if they had followed through on it for the next film. Instead it's (presumably) more of Kylo trying to hunt down Rey and her buddies. ... that's the best thing what are you talking about. (It's not 'more of Kylo trying to hunt down Rey and her buddies', it's 'Kylo Ren, Vader cosplayer and RULER OF THE GALAXY') Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 23:31
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Kylo Ren is basically a school shooter. He just wants to murder those he hates. Rey working with Ren wouldn’t be good for her, unless she likes killing Jedi kids (which I’m sure the next one is about)
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Sep 9, 2018 23:33
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ImpAtom posted:Holdo kept her plan secret for the obvious reason of the moment someone found out about the plan they leaked it, which lead to the plan failing when someone revealed it to the Empire. keeping a secret plan secret obviously makes sense, but thats different from continuously saying "trust me" while your fleet loses crew and material, disclosing no information to make people think you have a plan, and failing at leadership so badly that (non-Poe) members of your own command staff mutiny because they don't know whats going on and by all appearances you're leading them straight to their deaths it was only "leaked" because large portions of remaining Rebellion were trying to work around their completely uncommunicative and uninspiring command structure this is further exacerbated by the "secret plan" being farcically terrible and obvious/unworkable even by very generous saturday-morning-cartoon logic standards - i.e. the movie takes a very "blame Poe!" standpoint but Holdo's plan would have had the same result if any First Order ship bothered to press the "scan" button, any random First Order crewman had looked out the window, or any First Order commander had said "hey, maybe we should investigate that planet the Rebel fleet has been flying directly toward for the last few days of slow pursuit"
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Sep 9, 2018 23:37
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you seem bad at watching movies
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Sep 9, 2018 23:39
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By large portions, you mean Poe, Finn, and Rose.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:40
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Arist posted:you seem bad at watching movies I understand what the movie wants to convey, I'm just saying that due to incompetence it thoroughly undermines its intended message (which I should reiterate is terrible)
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Sep 9, 2018 23:41
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LGD posted:I understand what the movie wants to convey, I'm just saying that due to incompetence it thoroughly undermines its intended message (which I should reiterate is terrible) Nah e: gently caress it, I'll bite: what's the "terrible" message being conveyed here, lol
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Sep 9, 2018 23:42
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I for one cant wait to see how the first order deals with being at half strength after the snappening Will steve finally settle down with agent carter or will he spend his days cleaning up the imperial remnants with his bf bucky
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Sep 9, 2018 23:45
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LGD posted:keeping a secret plan secret obviously makes sense, but thats different from continuously saying "trust me" while your fleet loses crew and material, disclosing no information to make people think you have a plan, and failing at leadership so badly that (non-Poe) members of your own command staff mutiny because they don't know whats going on and by all appearances you're leading them straight to their deaths I also really wish that Leia had been the one to suicide-jump into the massive flagship instead of Holdo. Would have been a more fitting ending for her, although who knows what they are going to do in Ep 9. Supposedly they are going to use some of her appearances from unused TLJ footage.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:46
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The full title of Episode IX will be Star Wars: Episode IX: Here Comes Thanos.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:46
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Fangz posted:By large portions, you mean Poe, Finn, and Rose. Arist posted:Nah you should unquestioning trust authority figures because they know better than you, even when they give you no reason to believe that's the case, the evidence suggests otherwise, and they refuse to explain or justify themselves that's the extremely obvious message of that entire subplot LGD fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 23:47
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Wheat Loaf posted:The full title of Episode IX will be Star Wars: Episode IX: Here Comes Thanos.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:47
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If it's inexcusable that Holdo didn't tell Poe her plan, why is it okay that Poe didn't tell Holdo his plan? A plan of 'go to some planet, recruit a hacker, attack the huge enemy ship and disable the scanner at just the right moment to escape, hoping the enemy doesn't shoot down the shuttle as it leaves, or as it goes in to attack, or that they don't fail to recruit the hacker, or the hacker isn't an enemy agent, or...' I mean doesn't Poe's plan literally depend on the exact same thing that Holdo's plan did (that of the First Order not being able to track small craft) except it is ten times more complicated and risky? Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 23:48
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LGD posted:Poe was the only one there when Holdo and her staff were relieved of command at gunpoint That's not the lesson. You're really bad at watching movies. Poe's entire arc is about accepting that in this situation he can't be the reckless hero because there's always a cost to that poo poo, but he presses on anyway because he doesn't like or trust Holdo for bullshit reasons.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:51
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LGD posted:you should unquestioning trust authority figures because they know better than you, even when they give you no reason to believe that's the case, the evidence suggests otherwise, and they refuse to explain or justify themselves No it isn't. The film does not say "trust authority figures without question" and certainly not in the *exact same film where they point out the Resistance is buying weapons from war merchants.* The entire point is that Poe demanded to be told things after being proven himself untrustworthy and viewed things as "I'm the right hero who is always right" (with the meta-text of 'because that's how it works in these kind of films') only for it in fact to turn out to be entirely wrong. Their one in a million desperate effort didn't help, the charming rogue they met in a prison cell turned out to be more interested in profit than having a heart of gold, and Poe disliking being given orders turned out to be because he was an arrogant hothead, not because the orders were wrong.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:52
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And even if you're unable to accept that Holdo not telling Poe her plan was the right thing to do, the entire movie is about people making mistakes. I'm not saying that's necessarily a huge one on her part, but come on dude.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:54
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Arist posted:And even if you're unable to accept that Holdo not telling Poe her plan was the right thing to do, the entire movie is about people making mistakes. I'm not saying that's necessarily a huge one on her part, but come on dude. Indeed, the Leia/Holdo plan *fails*, because no one comes to the rescue when they send the signal out. Whatever happened with this Holdo thing, the maximum number of Resistance that were gonna be saved at the end of the day was the contents of the Milennium Falcon.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:01
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I really did not intend to spark another round of non-comics movie discussion. Please drop, Captain Marvel trailer. You're our only hope.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:02
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What is the likely timetable for the CM trailer? I suppose there any big high profile event they can attach it to before it comes out?
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Sep 10, 2018 00:18
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Fangz posted:Indeed, the Leia/Holdo plan *fails*, because no one comes to the rescue when they send the signal out. Whatever happened with this Holdo thing, the maximum number of Resistance that were gonna be saved at the end of the day was the contents of the Milennium Falcon. Not exactly: before Finn's group accidentally betrayed the plan, Leia and Holdo intended to hide out on the salt planet while a skeleton crew on the transport ship led the imperials away. They intended to broadcast a call for help, but it was help in regrouping, not a last stand.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:37
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ImpAtom posted:No it isn't. The film does not say "trust authority figures without question" and certainly not in the *exact same film where they point out the Resistance is buying weapons from war merchants.* it absolutely does the fact that this is contradictory doesn't mean much since this is the same film where Rose stops Finn from sacrificing himself because "love will save the day" and killing yourself can't possibly be the solution a few minutes after Holdo suicide bombs the First Order fleet Arist posted:That's not the lesson. You're really bad at watching movies. quote:The entire point is that Poe demanded to be told things after being proven himself untrustworthy and viewed things as "I'm the right hero who is always right" (with the meta-text of 'because that's how it works in these kind of films') only for it in fact to turn out to be entirely wrong. Their one in a million desperate effort didn't help, the charming rogue they met in a prison cell turned out to be more interested in profit than having a heart of gold, and Poe disliking being given orders turned out to be because he was an arrogant hothead, not because the orders were wrong. a. His demotion actually makes very little sense and doesn't feel earned - Holdo and Leia (and the film) treat him as if he was wrong, but he isn't actually ever shown to be wrong or reckless and several details of the film contradict this interpretation. The bombers clearly weren't launched on his authority and were already in the air as part of a plan to take on the NO fleet, the plan had actually been entirely successful to the point that Leia decides to peace-out, its entirely unclear how the bombers would possibly be recalled/saved if they were as slow/vulnerable as shown, and nobody ever contradicts the notion that the dreadnought is a legitimate "fleet killer" in a film where the rebel fleet then spends the rest of the movie getting the poo poo pounded out of it in a slow-speed chase. b. After the briefing he makes request to know what's going on, offers relevant information he'd know as commander of their fighter wing (with an implicit offer to help), something that is perfectly reasonable under the circumstances and given his role (even with the demotion). Holdo brushes his information/offer off, and tells him to shut the gently caress up, go away, and follow orders (she clearly has no interest in what Poe/others have to offer in terms of alternate suggestions/plans, which is why the comically inappropriate Finn and Rose go on a spy mission). As time goes on it becomes clear the fleet is taking severe losses and Poe is not the only one completely cut out of any sort of information loop and rapidly losing faith in the command structure. Indeed it gets so bad that the crew stages a mutiny that feels entirely justified to the audience for reasons that have nothing to do with assuaging Poe's ego or need to be the Big drat Hero. You're supposed to feel bad because it turns out Holdo did have a plan all along, but this is undermined by the plan being both obviously terrible on its face and in no way requiring the utter lack of communication Holdo engages in to be successful. the movie clearly wants you to think Poe was dangerous/reckless/wrong and tells you that is the case, but it does a really piss poor job actually showing him to be dangerous, reckless or wrong, with what appears on screen often contradicting that message - so you end up with a movie where those in command of the rebellion are demonstrably uninterested in soliciting helpful advice during a crisis situation, fail completely at leadership during that same crisis situation, and pursue a terrible plan, and then at the end the audience is told that the demonstrably awful plan put forward by these people would have succeeded if only everyone had simply sat down, shut up, and obeyed without question there's definitely a message there, but its not a good one TLJ is a bad movie LGD fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 00:39
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jesus christ dude
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Sep 10, 2018 00:44
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Arist posted:jesus christ dude
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Sep 10, 2018 00:45
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Arist posted:jesus christ dude you literally asked for it
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Sep 10, 2018 00:49
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There's kinda a gap between 'the message of the film is that you should obey authority without question' and 'hey Poe never makes a mistake why isn't he rewarded for just going off on his gut instinct'.
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Sep 10, 2018 01:02
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LGD posted:you literally asked for it When you’re on your deathbed will you remember the effortbitching that made you mad or the shitposts that made you lol
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Sep 10, 2018 01:10
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Sep 10, 2018 01:14
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Fangz posted:There's kinda a gap between 'the message of the film is that you should obey authority without question' and 'hey Poe never makes a mistake why isn't he rewarded for just going off on his gut instinct'. not really though - Poe certainly isn't flawless (for example he almost certainly should have had Finn go talk to the intelligence/command staff despite his earlier brush-off), but the film does an incredibly poor job of conveying that he's making bad decisions under the circumstances (the film's failure to establish scale and the broader context of the conflict is a major impediment here), and in every case the implied (correct) alternative course of action is for Poe to simply shut up and unquestioningly follow orders e: I guess this is The End
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Sep 10, 2018 01:16
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Wheat Loaf posted:What is the likely timetable for the CM trailer? I suppose there any big high profile event they can attach it to before it comes out? The next "Marvel" movie is Venom in early October. After that the only big Disney release for the rest of the year is Wreck it Ralph 2.
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Sep 10, 2018 01:38
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I think they are betting on Mary Poppins: Reveangence bring pretty big as well
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Sep 10, 2018 02:21
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Fangz posted:EDIT: They were decidedly more mixed on Infinity War, FWIW. Though I know Lindsey was also talking about how Infinity War was starting to remind her of post 2000s event comics and the problems that come with them from a narrative standpoint.
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Sep 10, 2018 02:26
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You're a good egg, LGDArist posted:That's not the lesson. You're really bad at watching movies.
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Sep 10, 2018 03:12
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ok
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Sep 10, 2018 03:16
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muscles like this! posted:The next "Marvel" movie is Venom in early October. After that the only big Disney release for the rest of the year is Wreck it Ralph 2. I would think we get the CM trailer by the end of this month or the beginning of Oct.
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Sep 10, 2018 03:30
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:I think they are betting on Mary Poppins: Reveangence bring pretty big as well I wish Michael Rooker had filmed his cameo before he told Disney to gently caress off.
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Sep 10, 2018 03:32
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 It turns out Sony was right all along!
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Sep 10, 2018 07:25
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We can talk about Batman/Superman again! 
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Sep 10, 2018 07:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:What is the likely timetable for the CM trailer? I suppose there any big high profile event they can attach it to before it comes out? They don't really have to attach it to anything big. The last time there was a gap like this between MCU films was before Civil War. That had a few trailers / scenes shown at conventions in August and September before the first actual trailer was released on an episode of Jimmy Kimmel.
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Sep 10, 2018 07:38
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