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One thing I'll say is that I'm getting pretty desperate for one of these shows to have a villain that doesn't think they're the good guy. I know nobody thinks they're the bad guy in real life but these shows really need like, someone like the Joker. Just a completely evil bastard who doesn't have a scene where people try to talk them down because there must still be good in them. That's part of what made Jessica Jones season one so good, Purple Man was a completely irredeemable piece of poo poo.
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Sep 10, 2018 17:17
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Lurdiak posted:One thing I'll say is that I'm getting pretty desperate for one of these shows to have a villain that doesn't think they're the good guy. I know nobody thinks they're the bad guy in real life but these shows really need like, someone like the Joker. Just a completely evil bastard who doesn't have a scene where people try to talk them down because there must still be good in them. That's part of what made Jessica Jones season one so good, Purple Man was a completely irredeemable piece of poo poo. I think you are very wrong and I hope you never get what you want (in this one tiny aspect of your life). A mustache-twirling bad guy who is obviously 100% bad and eats Frosted Bad Flakes for breakfast before going off for a 16 hour day of Bad Deeds is one-dimensional and is a cliche several orders of magnitude more basic and trite than the one who thinks he's good. The monomaniacal, monodimensional villain is interesting only in the "how do we stop them" sense, one you don't lose when the villain also has human dimensions. Edit: do you want more ninjas? Because that's how you get more ninjas
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Sep 10, 2018 17:35
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Lurdiak posted:One thing I'll say is that I'm getting pretty desperate for one of these shows to have a villain that doesn't think they're the good guy. I know nobody thinks they're the bad guy in real life but these shows really need like, someone like the Joker. Just a completely evil bastard who doesn't have a scene where people try to talk them down because there must still be good in them. That's part of what made Jessica Jones season one so good, Purple Man was a completely irredeemable piece of poo poo. Punisher has that.
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Sep 10, 2018 17:38
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homullus posted:I think you are very wrong and I hope you never get what you want (in this one tiny aspect of your life). A mustache-twirling bad guy who is obviously 100% bad and eats Frosted Bad Flakes for breakfast before going off for a 16 hour day of Bad Deeds is one-dimensional and is a cliche several orders of magnitude more basic and trite than the one who thinks he's good. The monomaniacal, monodimensional villain is interesting only in the "how do we stop them" sense, one you don't lose when the villain also has human dimensions. I will take a million ninjas over Jessica's mom. But ninjas are boring and faceless, I'm thinking more like... Clarence Boddicker, Green Goblin, the Emperor from Star Wars. Y'know, bad guys that chew the scenery and that you can't wait to see get beat up by the good guy. It's kind of what the superhero genre is built on, after power fantasies? And while I'm on the subject of things I'm a little tired of, it's the heroes running themselves ragged and getting angry and losing focus in every season of every show. Iron Fist kinda did something a bit different with it, but that's still both seasons of Daredevil, 1 season of Jessica Jones, 1 season of Luke Cage, and now this season of Iron Fist. I guess there was some of that in Punisher, too. Surely we can have other arcs for our protagonists. Cythereal posted:Punisher has that. Yeah and that was the most fun part of the show.
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Sep 10, 2018 17:53
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Cythereal posted:Punisher has that. And there's Kingpin.
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Sep 10, 2018 17:54
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Habibi posted:And there's Kingpin. Kingpin spent the entire first season thinking he was the good guy.
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Sep 10, 2018 17:56
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Kingpin in the Marvel Netflix universe is like the epitome of a bad guy with relatively justifiable reasons for why he's so hosed up. That said I loving loved the focus on him and his backstory in DDS1.
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Sep 10, 2018 18:16
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Lurdiak posted:I will take a million ninjas over Jessica's mom. But ninjas are boring and faceless, I'm thinking more like... Clarence Boddicker, Green Goblin, the Emperor from Star Wars. Y'know, bad guys that chew the scenery and that you can't wait to see get beat up by the good guy. It's kind of what the superhero genre is built on, after power fantasies? You want an Agent of Chaos for the hero to impose order on, if I'm reading you right. That's not a bad thing, but can be narratively boring in the wrong hands. And let's be honest, Netflix Marvel aren't the right hands.
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Sep 10, 2018 18:26
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Wasn't that pretty much what Diamondback was? I don't really recall him thinking he was the hero. The leaders of the Hand certainly could have been that. I'm on episode 9 of IF S2 and I'm pretty sure that Netflix has no special effects budget for these shows. Make the hand glow occasionally is the best we get. The addiction theme is...well if the writing was better I'd be more into it. Otherwise a lot of the character motivations and actions are really bad. Lol @ asking Coleen to be the next Iron Fist and then instantly dismissing it. It's like they took people online going "Coleen is way better than Danny." and decided to just tease those people and then give them a middle finger. edit: Guess I spoke too soon! Finn Jones is still not very good. PaybackJack fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 18:44
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Are there MCU villains with desirable goals? Those are the best.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:02
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Accretionist posted:Are there MCU villains with desirable goals? Those are the best. Magneto is probably the best "noble" goal villain in Marvel. He just wants mutants to have power over those pesky obsolete humans
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Sep 10, 2018 19:12
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Mojo just wants to entertain the masses.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:27
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Galactus just wants a bite to eat.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:32
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esperterra posted:Kingpin in the Marvel Netflix universe is like the epitome of a bad guy with relatively justifiable reasons for why he's so hosed up. Kingpin believed he was Right. He believed that his position had set him up to know, better than anyone, why he knew best. He was a loving villain, not just antagonist. Purple Man was kinda the same - he believed that it was his destiny to get whatever he wanted, because life set him up to just get that and anybody who questioned his privilege was working against a really hosed up natural order. Black Mariah had the fuzzy nature of wanting to better her community, but she also fully believed that because of her position of power, she was better and smarter and more justified than everyone else; that her power gave her the right to treat everyone like a child or a bug. It's why I'm really excited about a season 3 of Iron Fist. Typhoid Mary has a very similar sense of self loving justification without the lies that 'it's all for the common good' and if there's a different main villain in the next season, they've hosed up something really good.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:40
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Whalley posted:Typhoid Mary has a very similar sense of self loving justification without the lies that 'it's all for the common good' and if there's a different main villain in the next season, they've hosed up something really good. A character with multiple and mutable personalities seems tailor-made for shifting alliances though, which then requires a second antagonist. More like Luke Cage Season 2.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:52
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Why is it so important for there to be a secondary antagonist? The best cape shows and movies all benefit from the focus of having a single antagonist, so why are so many productions taking notes from Spider Man 3 instead of Spider Man 2?
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Sep 10, 2018 19:58
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HIJK posted:Spider Man 3 instead of Spider Man 2? Overawed by that swagger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ron-Ikenfc
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Sep 10, 2018 20:02
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I'm only on episode 3 but man I love Ward, he sucks so goddamn much
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Sep 10, 2018 20:19
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Weird question but how much longer does Netflix hold the licensing for Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Defenders?
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Sep 10, 2018 20:36
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Arist posted:I'm only on episode 3 but man I love Ward, he sucks so goddamn much Ward's really great this season and he just gets better from there.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:38
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homullus posted:A character with multiple and mutable personalities seems tailor-made for shifting alliances though, which then requires a second antagonist. More like Luke Cage Season 2. Speaking of the ending - it's probably just that I've been playing too much Yakuza lately, but I'd loving love to see some gauche videogamey expensive shirts and Kabuchiko bars and just some real old-fashioned feed me my own garbage filth entertainment. I really feel like season 3 of Iron Fist, should it ever happen, has some serious loving potential that the first two seasons just never had. e: in retrospect (ie, the tiniest amount of thought possible), I kinda feel like that main villain is most likely being built up for the next season of Daredevil. Wungus fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 20:45
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Ok IF S2 done. Can't believe they actually went with giving Coleen the Iron Fist and while it doesn't seem like they're writing Finn out having him traipse around Asia with Ward is a kind of buddy comedy thing I can get behind. The Typhoid Mary storyline was...not great but Alice Eve did a good job and wasn't just there for eye candy like I thought she'd be when I first heard she was on the show. I think my big problem with the whole season was that similar to Defenders, everything was way too toned down compared to how it should have been. If they wanted to show Danny losing an addiction battle to the Fist they could have sold it a lot more, had him going super saiyan with glow eyes and poo poo showing he's tapping deeper into the power; or had him start using it more often in situations where he should have been more restrained. I think the point was to show him as more of a functional addict, but like everything else they just didn't really take it far enough. Which brings my to the CG and overall use of powers. In all four Defenders shows we haven't seen any sort of extended power use that didn't involve brawling. That's fine, the Defenders are suppose to be street level so it shouldn't come off like X-Men but at this point and certainly with Iron Fist, we need villains that actually are plausibly able to compete with our hero and while giving Davos the Iron Fist and having the story be that Danny could win without it, it's getting to be like Heroes, where it's obviously they don't have the budget and means to pull off any cool power use for any period of time and that's kind of a lovely deal in a Superhero show. It's probably the one good thing that DC shows have going for them is that Supergirl and Flash actually use their powers to a believable extent and the budget is there to showcase them. Agents of Shield, the netflix shows, loving that Inhumans train wreck(which hilariously depowered half the cast in the first episode); they all suffer from being superhero shows that can only budget like 1-2 decent CG fights and even they it's a very quick use of the powers. A perfect example of this is the loving macguffin bowl. Oh this bowl is super important we can't do the ceremony without it! Then when they do the ceremony the bowl does glow, or make poo poo boin without heat, or do anything at all magical. It might as well have been loving tupperware for as far as we saw. Throw some CG in there, or at least do some cheap practical effects like gluing some LEDs on it or loving something. I don't want to say that the people making these shows "hate" comic books and superheroes, it's not at like Big Bang Theory level where the whole thing is a joke at the fans expense, but it really feels like they're bending over backwards almost to avoid giving people powers to an extent that I'm getting taken out of it. The show succeeded though as it recognized Finn Jones is not very good and smartly decided to keep him side lined in various ways, though I wonder why for fight scenes they couldn't have thrown the mask on him and brought in a good stunt double but whatever this is probably more "we have to see the actor's face at all times" bullshit. They recognized Coleen was good and made her a bigger focus, and took the best part of the Immortal Iron Fist (pirate queen story) and made it a part of her backstory which is good. They kept Ward around which is good because he's a nice grounding element in the show. Unfortunately, the motivations and some of the conflict points in the show were really bad. The writing was cringeworthy at points. While it was an improvement from the first season it also didn't really feel like it followed well from it. There was a lot of choices that felt like they were made in response to the wrong criticisms (did anyone find Danny more sympathetic because he took a job as a mover? WTF was this?) Overall: watchable.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:56
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Whalley posted:It doesn't require a second antagonist. "Mary" is already fond of and forgiving towards Danny/Iron Fist, "Walker" is self serving and on the hunt for her alter, and "Bloody Mary" is presumably a psychotic (potentially telekinetik/pyrokinetic if they go that route) killer. We've also already got a secondary plot in play; whatever is going on in Japan seems unconnected to her. I just don't want there to be a principal antagonist there; gimme some side story while Mary's the big bad. For the next season of Daredevil they have Bullseye. Typhoid Mary would do well with Jessica Jones since she doesn't have many known enemies and she would work as a better foil to Jessica. That's just my opinion though. Gaunab fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 21:00
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Iron Fist season two is easily the best second season of the Marvel Netflix shows, it was really refreshing to see how much it improved.
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Sep 10, 2018 21:30
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Koalas March posted:Weird question but how much longer does Netflix hold the licensing for Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Defenders? They’ve been keeping the future of the partnerships kind of close to their vests. The only they’ve confirmed so far is that Antman and the Wasp will be the last Marvel movie to stream on Netflix and that, even after the split, Netflix will continue to have the shows they’ve produced. Though, if it’s any indication of the future of the shows, the Jessica Jones show runner announced that she’s leaving after she finishes up JJ season 3.
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Sep 10, 2018 21:35
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PaybackJack posted:Ok IF S2 done. So this is what Mary’s file looked like before Ward called in favors.
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Sep 10, 2018 21:59
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It was really dumb that they kept saying how bad a triad war would be, but I don't remember any of the violence hurting non-triads until Davos killed the restaurant owner.
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Sep 11, 2018 01:01
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soscannonballs posted:It was really dumb that they kept saying how bad a triad war would be, but I don't remember any of the violence hurting non-triads until Davos killed the restaurant owner. That's because they never actually started the war. Do you seriously need convincing that a gang war has civilian casualties?
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Sep 11, 2018 01:08
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I know these shows are trying to be all grounded and gritty and morally gray and all that, but I really think they, especially iron first, are going too far with it and placating gangs. They're so worried about gang war they go out of their way to help murderous gangs stay in power so they can keep killing people and bleeding innocent people for protection money, etc. I mean, its all giant super hero make believe with glowing dragon fists, and they seem to be going so far to gritty they're forgetting he's supposed to be a superhero. I'm trying to think of anything heroic Danny did, people he saved and protected who weren't thugs and gangsters. Wheres his Daredevil bloody half dead hallway fight to save a kidnapped kid? I'm trying to picture like, superman protecting gangs and helping them stay in power, and its just a really really weird image.
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Sep 11, 2018 01:50
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Does Danny actually use the fist for anything meaningful this season (or hell, on someone else) or is it just his flashlight/door opener again?
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Sep 11, 2018 02:00
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As Nero Danced posted:Does Danny actually use the fist for anything meaningful this season (or hell, on someone else) or is it just his flashlight/door opener again? Very first scene, he punches a truck.
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Sep 11, 2018 02:04
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The whole season is already fading from memory, but I think he uses it as a shockwave generator by punching the floor mostly.
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Sep 11, 2018 02:06
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he punches the bottom edge of a table to send it flying at one point
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Sep 11, 2018 02:25
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The last 5 minutes are better than the rest of the season combined.
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Sep 11, 2018 02:30
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NecroMonster posted:he punches the bottom edge of a table to send it flying at one point That's a pretty great practical FX shot, all things considered. It looked like they built a wobbly, bent of shape version of the table just to have it go flying through the air. Edit: Toa Fraser, the episode's director, was pretty good throughout. I loved all the isolated close ups of the actors when Davos and Joy turned up to the dinner party in Episode Three. He also did the Blind Cannibal Assassins episode of Into The Badlands, so I'm keeping an eye on him. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 02:44
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I'm just a couple episodes and change in and I think it's a huge improvement over Season 1. Danny's still a dumb dork, but he's a likable one now instead of just an rear end. I don't mean that to be backhanded either. I'm enjoying the character a lot more. Colleen still owns. The show's not as good as the best of the Marvel Netflix shows, but that's fine. I'm still enjoying it and I think I'm gonna stick with it for the rest of the season. The only thing I didn't like was that the flashback fight between Davos and Danny had them in those sparring shoes. I guess they could be a callback to the classic booties, but c'mon, have them fight barefoot.
PunkBoy fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 02:50
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if it wasn't for Danny being so gosh darn awful this would actually have been a solid show. But Finn is just a god damned lodestone around this shows neck.
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Sep 11, 2018 03:02
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I actually burst out laughing at the end when Danny was suddenly dual wielding glowing guns and shot one bullet with two, then went "heh. don't do that again. (im cool now)." I know it was supposed to be a badass reveal and was probably some poo poo out of the comics, but for me it really just served as a final vindication of this season's willingness to continually sideline the lead in favor of all the other better characters/actors. Colleen and Misty are a great pairing, and Ward continues to be good. On the other end of the spectrum was every moment with that scrappy young street gang.
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Sep 11, 2018 03:31
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double negative posted:I know it was supposed to be a badass reveal and was probably some poo poo out of the comics, but for me it really just served as a final vindication of this season's willingness to continually sideline the lead in favor of all the other better characters/actors. I don't think that was supposed to be badass, just fun. I mean the effect was atrocious but so were the effects the entire season so w/e.
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Sep 11, 2018 03:36
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Okay, this was pretty fun! I'd even say slightly better than watchable! They're kinda leaning in to Danny being a well-meaning idiot, and Colleen and Mary and Misty do really well taking more of the screen time away from his dumb rear end. He still looked kinda amateurish when he was training, but the fight scenes looked a lot better, and (especially Colleen's) had a lot fewer cuts, so I didn't feel like they were trying to fake every single kick. I really liked Mary's performance, but in retrospect I'm not really sure why she was in the show. I mean, I guess she served a purpose as Additional Karate Fighter/Bodyguard in a few scenes, but that role coulda been filled by any generic Karate Man, or even Luke Cage or Daredevil if they wanted to cross up a little more. Am I forgetting something, or was her whole connection to the group just randomly being the private investigator that Joy sends to spy on Danny? The random photographer ends up being a ninja assassin with multiple personalities, and so she doesn't leave the plot after taking pictures, just bops around from episode to episode being a tough guy here and there. None of her impact on the story had much to do with who she was, other than I guess tipping off Danny at the beginning. I mean, she was an interesting character and I liked seeing her onscreen, but looking back I'm not sure why she needed to be there at all. It seemed like she was a character from another show who showed up expecting the plots to involve her in some way, but they never did. e: And of course, as I post it, I realize: that's exactly what she is. She's a character who's gonna have a plot in Daredevil S3 or a future Marvel Netflix show, so when she shows up there we'll all think "Oh, it's Mary who we met in Iron Fist S2!" And they'll think that's clever. 
Phenotype fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 04:20
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