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Thermopyle posted:I wasn't talking about any specific $500 system, I was just using numbers to illustrate the problem with your reasoning. Welcome to 3d printing as a hobby, then. Where things aren't as cheap as people think they should be, but you still get what you pay for.
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Sep 10, 2018 15:24
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Welcome to 3d printing as a hobby, then. Where things aren't as cheap as people think they should be, but you still get what you pay for. You mean, welcome to hobbies.
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Sep 10, 2018 15:25
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Or life really.
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Sep 10, 2018 15:26
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I'm a technical sort of guy. For example, I'm a software developer and I build quality furniture sometimes. However, I've got limited electronics experience. The most advanced thing I've done is build an ambilight clone with a raspberry pi and some led light strips. Is building the hypercube evolution going to be out of my skill range?
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Sep 10, 2018 15:39
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Thermopyle posted:I'm a technical sort of guy. For example, I'm a software developer and I build quality furniture sometimes. However, I've got limited electronics experience. The most advanced thing I've done is build an ambilight clone with a raspberry pi and some led light strips. I don't see it being a problem. The Hypercube is basically the "upgrade" progression a lot of newbies followed after getting the Monoprice Mini V2 (rip electronics/hotend out, move them to that frame, flash new firmware, off to the races).
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Sep 10, 2018 15:41
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I assume the price per print on a da Vinci system would be pretty high since they DRM their filament for their 1 color systems. Does the Prusa MMU work on anything other than Prusa? I'm looking at $700 for 4 color printer with cheap per print filament ($200 ender 3 and $500 Pallette 2). Assuming it works as well as it seems to then that sounds pretty good to me.
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Sep 10, 2018 16:02
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On the subject of building 3d printers, is anyone considering building the voron 2.1 that was released over at reddit (though build manual isn't finished yet)? https://www.reddit.com/r/voroncorexy/ I just put together an ender 3 which I'm happy with so far but I can see having a faster printer with larger volume being nice.
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Sep 10, 2018 16:03
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Thermopyle posted:I'm a technical sort of guy. For example, I'm a software developer and I build quality furniture sometimes. However, I've got limited electronics experience. The most advanced thing I've done is build an ambilight clone with a raspberry pi and some led light strips. It’s pretty easy if you find the right guide. When I built my mk2 clone I picked up a lot watching Tom configure marlin and then using pronterface to interface directly with the printers console to debug endstops, motor directions, and steps/mm
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Sep 10, 2018 16:22
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ClassH posted:Does the Prusa MMU work on anything other than Prusa? No. The files are published and if you know what you are doing you can adapt your printer to work with it (caveat, you really need to know what you are doing), but no. ClassH posted:I'm looking at $700 for 4 color printer with cheap per print filament ($200 ender 3 and $500 Pallette 2). Assuming it works as well as it seems to then that sounds pretty good to me. Depends entirely on how long it takes you to calibrate the system to color change efficiently, and then the time you spend learning how to use the Palette's closed, cloud-based slicer software. EDIT: Oh yeah, don't complain about DRM filament when you're playing with a DRM-locked slicer. Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 16:30
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Thermopyle posted:I'm a technical sort of guy. For example, I'm a software developer and I build quality furniture sometimes. However, I've got limited electronics experience. The most advanced thing I've done is build an ambilight clone with a raspberry pi and some led light strips. I did a Hypercube Evolution for my second printer and it's fantastic. It takes a lot of time to put together, but it's definitely doable. Don't skimp on rods/bearings. The kits you can find on AliExpress are a good starting point, but you might want to do a frame only kit and source the rest of the parts yourself.
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Sep 10, 2018 16:40
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biracial bear for uncut posted:EDIT: Oh yeah, don't complain about DRM filament when you're playing with a DRM-locked slicer. I don't even... Are you confusing closed source and DRM? How is it affecting the price per print like DRM filament would?
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Sep 10, 2018 17:57
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From doing some more research on the TronXY printer, I think I'd go for the x5sa - it appears they fixed all the issues with the x5s. Adds a better control board (mks sbase, I think) with a touchscreen, autolevel, and a better PSU. I did price out most of the Piper 2, had 2 different prices. Order from the local guy, it was $600ish, and I'd have it next week. Order from China, it'd be about $300, and be here sometime before Xmas.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:00
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TwystNeko posted:From doing some more research on the TronXY printer, I think I'd go for the x5sa - it appears they fixed all the issues with the x5s. Adds a better control board (mks sbase, I think) with a touchscreen, autolevel, and a better PSU. The X5SA uses a Chitu F-Mini control board with closed-source firmware that, as far as I know, still can't be reflashed with something better. The rest of the kit is mechanically much nicer these days than the original X5S that I have, but that board is pretty much trash because you're locked in to their firmware. Even an SBase, which is also kind of trash by today's standards because LOL Smoothieware (and I say this as an SBase owner) would be an improvement. On the upside, there's compiled and tested X5S firmware for all sorts of other controllers available if you ever want to swap out for something more useful.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:24
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Multi-material printing isn't a solution to getting true to life colours on your print but it is still a medium worth exploring and working in. It's about exploring mediums. May as well say "Why paint a portrait when you can take a photograph?"
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Sep 10, 2018 19:24
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ClassH posted:I don't even... Are you confusing closed source and DRM? How is it affecting the price per print like DRM filament would? There are a lot of people in the general "maker community" that get mad about anything having any sort of DRM tied to it, regardless of the cost of usage (just look up the hate mail Printrbot received when they went to a closed, cloud based slicer for use with one of the last machines they released). Ask yourself: If the company that sells the Palette goes under, how will you continue to use the hardware once the closed source, online-only slicer goes away? Just because something doesn't have a per-print immediate cost does not mean you can ignore it. If your stated goal is open/third party supplies and freedom of use, then pay attention to the limits imposed by the products you look at. Just because the filament is open/third-party allowable does not mean you are one bit less locked in to using the company's product. Megabound posted:Multi-material printing isn't a solution to getting true to life colours on your print but it is still a medium worth exploring and working in. It's about exploring mediums. May as well say "Why paint a portrait when you can take a photograph?" Bad metaphors are bad. It's more like, "Why would you attempt to paint a portrait with only four colors at your disposal when investing just a little bit more allows you to paint with whatever colors you like?" Some Pinko Commie fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 19:41
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I wouldn't think anyone would seriously think of multi-material as primarily being a contender for the job of good (or even "barely-decent") painting but hoo nelly here we are  It's easy to be talking about different things, though. One person might be thinking "multi extrusion means I don't need to paint these D&D miniatures by hand!" which well ehhhh maybe but only in the roughest sense. Personally I think a sweet spot would be for experimenting with meta-materials (solid beams with corners in flex, or outer shell of solid with a flex infill, etc) or more practically, stuff like this: http://blog.tommy.sh/posts/okay-2-synth  The raised lettering and lines on buttons and other elements is done by manually stopping the print, then swapping filament, then resuming. The result is really nice and dovetails perfectly with the natural process of a 3D printer. I don't know anything else about it other than that the guy makes them for sale should someone wish to purchase pre-made. Paint wouldn't really be a step forward. Multi-material extrusion would have a clear production benefit. Not only avoiding the manual filament switch, but even in small quantities painting is like gluing: something to be avoided unless there's really no other way to get the needed result. Both need prep, then manual work, careful handling, then (crucially for small workspaces) the part needs to be put somewhere it can sit undisturbed while it dries/cures/whatever. It's easy to run out of shelf space or whatever if you have a small shop or work area and it backs up a workflow. The Eyes Have It fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 19:45
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Bad metaphors are bad. It's more like, "Why would you attempt to paint a portrait with only four colors at your disposal when investing just a little bit more allows you to paint with whatever colors you like?" What part of "we don't like painting" don't you understand?
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Sep 10, 2018 19:55
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Excuse me I'd just also like to add that I really don't like sanding either
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Sep 10, 2018 20:01
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Mister Sinewave posted:I wouldn't think anyone would seriously think of multi-material as primarily being a contender for the job of good (or even "barely-decent") painting but hoo nelly here we are Very few people ever look at those products and talk about Multi-Material printing though. It's almost always "Look, this add-on lets me print in more than one color!  "What do most of the Youtube reviewers with any significant number of subscribers do with it? Print Maker Challenge Coins in multiple colors.  I mean, look at these marketing prints for the original Palette campaign.   Do people think that level of print quality looks good? Ignore the colors and look at the actual print itself. BMan posted:What part of "we don't like painting" don't you understand? Then stop bringing it up. I've already pointed out much better projects/products demonstrate multi-color 3d printing, one of which is an open-source/creative commons project on Youmagine. None of which are the Palette or MMU by PrusaPrinters.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:01
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I teach courses in both 3D printing and traditional modelmaking and I just gotta say lomarf that this is even a discussion Multicolor FDM printing and airbrush painting are not remotely comparable in terms of time investment, skillsets required, or output I'm not even saying one is better. They're just completely different processes for entirely different goals
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Sep 10, 2018 20:03
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Sagebrush posted:I teach courses in both 3D printing and traditional modelmaking and I just gotta say lomarf that this is even a discussion LOL if you think anything so far has been a discussion, since everyone is talking past each other. quote:Multicolor FDM printing and airbrush painting are not remotely comparable in terms of time investment, skillsets required, or output I said airbrushing/painting will always result in better looking objects than anything the Palette or MMU designs can do, and will do it far more rapidly than either (with far more colors available than either unit will allow in a single print); and that it takes seconds to apply a color with paint (where either the Palette or MMU will take several hours to do so over the same area of a print). Yeah, you (the end user) don't have to put any  into the colors on the print. But your resulting object is only going to look as good as the effort you put into it. Yeah, it's possible to have "good enough" prints without any post-processing with the Palette/MMU, but they are always going to look inferior to prints that someone puts the effort into finishing after a print (and still look inferior to stuff that was printed a decade ago with the ColorPod project).quote:I'm not even saying one is better. They're just completely different processes for entirely different goals Then what is the goal here? Where do you teach your courses at, if you're going to offer that up as if it should matter?
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Sep 10, 2018 20:13
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e: ^^^ I offered up a pretty good example of a good goal for the processbiracial bear for uncut posted:Very few people ever look at those products and talk about Multi-Material printing though. It's almost always "Look, this add-on lets me print in more than one color! That sequencer/synth project is a perfect example of where a multi-color print turns out great and a MMU or whatever would be a clear boon to both production process and end result. Like, if anything it demonstrates that painting and multi-color extrusion do very different jobs because it's clearly not a "paint or no paint" kind of situation but I've read your reply a couple times now and honestly don't follow what you're trying to say other than the part where you point out that the sample prints you show from ??? (especially the LED cube one) isn't actually of particularly good 3D printing quality which while true isn't something I follow the relevance of, unless you're saying multi printing equals lovely prints? Like this probably sounds like I'm needling you or something but I think it just means we're actually talking about really different things / past each other. The Eyes Have It fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 20:15
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biracial bear for uncut posted:LOL if you think anything so far has been a discussion, since everyone is talking past each other. Jesus why are you so hostile to everyone about this? You would rather print then paint, others would rather use different plastics in different colors in a single print process. Both are fine, do what you want, let the market decide if MMU's become a go-forward technology.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:28
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Mister Sinewave posted:That sequencer/synth project is a perfect example of where a multi-color print turns out great and a MMU or whatever would be a clear boon to both production process and end result. $500 (or whatever the retail price actually is) is an awful lot of money for a simple pause/replace filament/resume operation in a few places in a program file. Also I'd hate to see the priming pillar waste for an object like the one you showed. Manually changing filament has been a feature in open-source printers for at least the last five years that I've been in the hobby (insert an M600 at the layer you want to change filament, manually swap and prime the nozzle, clean off the excess, hit the button on the printer to resume the print--functions essentially like an M1 on older CNC mills). quote:Like, if anything it demonstrates that painting and multi-color extrusion do very different jobs because it's clearly not a "paint or no paint" kind of situation but I've read your reply a couple times now and honestly don't follow what you're trying to say other than the part where you point out that the sample prints you show from ??? (especially the LED cube one) isn't actually of particularly good 3D printing quality which while true isn't something I follow the relevance of, unless you're saying multi printing equals lovely prints? They were from the original Palette Kickstarter page, rehosted on IMGUR so I don't get probated for image leeching. quote:Like this probably sounds like I'm needling you or something but I think it just means we're actually talking about really different things / past each other. Not at all, some folks ITT are talking about the MMU/Palette as though a mere four random colors in a printed object is worth getting excited about (when painting as a post-processing step for whatever range of colors you care to use, or even already-existing full CYM/CYMK color options are out there). Actual multi-material is still something of a "Meh" proposition. For any of the really cool materials you need an enclosed build area/machine that is capable of printing ABS well (for comparable hotend/build plate temperatures). Person that printed in multiple materials: "I printed an RC car wheel (semiflex/TPU) and hub (ABS/PC) all at once!" Me: "Okay, what else can you do? Granted, that's neat because those are expensive from the vendors, but that's just one use case." Same person: "I can print drone parts in multiple materials!" Me: "How long do the drone parts last when printed this way?" Same person: "One or two flights." Me: "That's it?" Same person: "I'm not a very good pilot.  "NeurosisHead posted:Jesus why are you so hostile to everyone about this? You would rather print then paint, others would rather use different plastics in different colors in a single print process. Both are fine, do what you want, let the market decide if MMU's become a go-forward technology. If you're going to project, try to get the positions people actually post correctly.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:30
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biracial bear for uncut posted:
FDM printing, for the foreseeable future, cannot approach the color spectrum or detail that is available by painting a model by hand. Duh. If you want something that looks like a painted warhammer model, learn to paint rather than faffing about with multiple filaments. Airbrush painting is an entire skillset of its own that is orthogonal to understanding 3D printing, and painting adds a huge amount of time and finishing steps (don't lie about "seconds", you know that isn't true except in the most trivial sense) that someone looking for an object with a few different colored areas on it (e.g. that keyboard posted above) may not have any interest in doing. It's like asking "what's the best car for my commute?" and someone answering "a motorcycle, because it's the fastest." biracial bear for uncut posted:Then what is the goal here? Where do you teach your courses at, if you're going to offer that up as if it should matter? a university industrial design program.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:34
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I wonder why there are so many colors of filament available. Don't people know they can just print in natural and airbrush it? 
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Sep 10, 2018 20:40
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BMan posted:I wonder why there are so many colors of filament available. Don't people know they can just print in natural and airbrush it? You think you're being clever here, but with all of the horseshit "Youtube channel name color LIMITED EDITION" crap that filament manufacturers are doing, giving a poo poo about the color of the filament really is a joke. I buy whatever filament is the cheapest from a known-good base material supplier because 99% of the time the color of the object doesn't matter for what I'm doing, just the material.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:45
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Acid Reflux posted:The X5SA uses a Chitu F-Mini control board with closed-source firmware that, as far as I know, still can't be reflashed with something better. The rest of the kit is mechanically much nicer these days than the original X5S that I have, but that board is pretty much trash because you're locked in to their firmware. Even an SBase, which is also kind of trash by today's standards because LOL Smoothieware (and I say this as an SBase owner) would be an improvement. On the upside, there's compiled and tested X5S firmware for all sorts of other controllers available if you ever want to swap out for something more useful. Good to know! I have a ramps board and drivers sitting around, so that's a pretty simple swap. And I never liked the inductive probes much. I have a spare one of those too, but I might spring for a bltouch. I'll check price differences between the two, as I think the x5sa is actually cheaper at the moment. Updated hardware is probably worth the swap. Edit: looks like a x5s is about $400-$430 shipped, and a x5sa is $500 shipped. Is there a drastic difference between the two that I can't make up for with new hardware/PSU and printed parts? They look basically identical. Also, i thought the sbase was a smoothie clone? Ii TwystNeko fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 20:53
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Ask yourself: If the company that sells the Palette goes under, how will you continue to use the hardware once the closed source, online-only slicer goes away? I would use the desktop version. ClassH fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 21:28
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Bad metaphors are bad. It's more like, "Why would you attempt to paint a portrait with only four colors at your disposal when investing just a little bit more allows you to paint with whatever colors you like?" Because you chose to express your artistic desire by using a certain technique, or working within certain limitations. Not all painted portraits are realistic and you're dismissing artist intent from all your arguments by simply stating over and over again "MMU can't provide a complex enough finish so it should be dismissed out of hand." If I'm doing something I care about the look of I'll select the material for whatever properties in seeking, colour, texture, smell, whatever. I did these last year, but if I wanted to do something more complex in a multi-material print a pallette or the like would be invaluable. 
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Sep 10, 2018 21:59
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TwystNeko posted:Good to know! I have a ramps board and drivers sitting around, so that's a pretty simple swap. And I never liked the inductive probes much. I have a spare one of those too, but I might spring for a bltouch. I'll check price differences between the two, as I think the x5sa is actually cheaper at the moment. Updated hardware is probably worth the swap. As with any TronXY machine, it will almost certainly benefit from some upgrade parts. It's just the nature of the beast with most of these kits, and if you know what you're buying/like to tinker/don't mind spending a little bit more money on top of the kit price, they're quite a nice base to start modding from. My X5S isn't so far from stock as to be unrecognizable, but I've changed and upgraded enough that it's a far better machine than when it came out of the box. I got mine on sale for $270 about a year ago, and have maybe another $100 in parts, $40 of which was a good 24V PSU to run the heated bed that wouldn't even hit 45C on 12V.  I enjoy the tinkering just as much as I do the printing though, so none of that has ever bothered me. I don't really know the current status of the various kits and versions, but I imagine it's safe to say that a standard X5S would have the same mechanical parts as the SA these days, unless someone ships a box off the bottom of an old stack somewhere. I stopped hanging around the TXY Facebook groups about the same time that the original SA upgrade kit was due to be released, so I'm not really up on the changes. And yeah, the SBase is a clone...ish...board, and it's actually a fairly decent 32 bit controller, but the Smoothie developers (a) hate the boards (and apparently people who own them) because they're not fully open source hardware, and (b) Smoothieware has historically lagged pretty badly behind the development curve compared to stuff like Marlin 2 and the much newer Klipper. It's just not my favorite thing anymore, although maybe things have gotten better since I stopped paying attention to them early in the year.
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Sep 10, 2018 22:42
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biracial bear for uncut posted:99% of the time the color of the object doesn't matter for what I'm doing yeah I kinda picked up on that, you've been dropping a few subtle hints
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Sep 10, 2018 23:10
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biracial bear for uncut posted:If you're going to project, try to get the positions people actually post correctly. i feel like you've made it unequivocally clear that you like to print things, then paint them. others have made it pretty clear that they like the idea of printing things with multiple colors with multiple colors of plastic in a single print. i don't really know what I got wrong in there, but i'm open to any corrections you have
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Sep 10, 2018 23:44
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NeurosisHead posted:i feel like you've made it unequivocally clear that you like to print things, then paint them. others have made it pretty clear that they like the idea of printing things with multiple colors with multiple colors of plastic in a single print. i don't really know what I got wrong in there, but i'm open to any corrections you have He misread your “print then paint” as “print than paint”. Not a completely crazy misreading - I made it - but one that anyone who rereads stuff before reacting would have caught.
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Sep 11, 2018 01:58
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I just sent off a portfolio of these woodfill prints to an interior design company that snubbed me a little while ago. I've been looking at similar sculptures to what I have been producing and they are selling for atleast a cool hundred dollars, which tells me there is value to what I've been doing Let's see how it goes
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Sep 11, 2018 02:36
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Megabound posted:you're dismissing artist intent Well, sure, because it (the artists intent) doesn't matter.
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Sep 11, 2018 02:47
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Jestery posted:I just sent off a portfolio of these woodfill prints to an interior design company that snubbed me a little while ago. Good luck! I imagine that the interior design market would be good market for that type of thing. Speaking of woodfill, can anyone recommend a good Australian supplier for woodfill? I've tried a couple and wasn't very happy with them (3dfillies and some rando on ebay).
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Sep 11, 2018 12:48
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It's not great b/C random on ebay , but I use this seller. No name stuff, but, fast , good quality and cheap Enjoy it while it lasts https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F112978773351 Edit: Venus https://i.imgur.com/WF2X1dg.jpg Jestery fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 13:30
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dyne posted:On the subject of building 3d printers, is anyone considering building the voron 2.1 that was released over at reddit (though build manual isn't finished yet)? https://www.reddit.com/r/voroncorexy/ I’ve been going through a similar thought process and probably have most of the mechanical parts if I canabalise dead printers I have. 350 cubic seems pretty appealing.
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Sep 11, 2018 22:36
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I'm really torn between Voron or just saying eff it at putting new electronics on one of the bigger X5S things.
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Sep 12, 2018 01:11
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