|
Specifically the robots are learning and advancing things because as stated, they're better at it.
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 06:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 14:49 |
|
|
Eiba posted:The Culture is very egalitarian. Actually the Culture has strong mores against instilling menial equipment with sapience, or conversely building complex machinery without it. Like the new Netflix film Next Gen, where literally everything is sapient, and sentient gates spend their existence in despair / artificial joy while they wait for the next person to come by so they can open and close. The light switches might all be controlled by a single hub mind subroutine that might have a degree of sentience separate from the overseeing mind, but it's not like the light switches themselves are aware. Political influence in the Culture itself is difficult to consider, because they're pretty consensus-driven and really don't have enough disagreement to generate enduring political factions. If someone doesn't like what the Culture is all about, they're free to do something else or break off entirely. But generally it seems like most everyone wants the good times to keep rolling along, and are happy to let the Minds maintain their benevolent governance. Some people like to join the administration bodies, but typically a mind could perform that role just as easily so most people don't. Which frankly is pretty Rogue Servitor-ish.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 06:14
|
|
|
I think it was Excession that briefly described some pretty crazy "factions" that initially formed as political splinter groups from within the Culture. I'm also sure Look to Windward featured a non-Culture group that was actively attempting to recruit citizens on a culture orbital without any negative repercussions from the Mind caretaker. e: haha sorry, this is the Stellaris thread, for some reason I thought I was in the book barn....
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 06:36
|
|
|
Surface Detail seems like it would make a decent (terrifying) event chain where you pick over some precursor networks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 07:00
|
|
|
Kaal posted:Actually the Culture has strong mores against instilling menial equipment with sapience, or conversely building complex machinery without it. Like the new Netflix film Next Gen, where literally everything is sapient, and sentient gates spend their existence in despair / artificial joy while they wait for the next person to come by so they can open and close. The light switches might all be controlled by a single hub mind subroutine that might have a degree of sentience separate from the overseeing mind, but it's not like the light switches themselves are aware. I think you've got it right. It's not that they're voting and humans count less, it's a (mostly) leaderless consensus/consent driven anarchy. He was quite heavily influenced by le guin. I feel like the current authoritarian/egalitarian axis doesn't quite capture possibilities. The current fanatical egalitarian still has quite an authorian feel, except everyone has equal rights to vote. Would be cool to have an anarchist government type, maybe with heavily reduced core colonies. Might be frustrating to play as though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 07:26
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Rogue Servitors are as dystopic as you choose to interpret your specific empire. I think that's really what it boils down to. You could just as easily argue that the Rogue Servitors DO allow organics to Do Things but that the ones who do are statistically insignificant at the Pop level. Yea, that's what makes them so attractive to roleplay TBH. You can be the nicest roibots possible that genuinely tries to tend to organics as if they were a longtime pet you have genuine feelings for, or you can be an overbearing parent who always knows what's best for them to the point of absurdity. It's fun!
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 07:51
|
|
|
pointsofdata posted:I feel like the current authoritarian/egalitarian axis doesn't quite capture possibilities. The current fanatical egalitarian still has quite an authorian feel, except everyone has equal rights to vote. Would be cool to have an anarchist government type, maybe with heavily reduced core colonies. Might be frustrating to play as though. Besides, in the context of a game, without some form of the assertion of power - the expression of your agency as a player in the game - what the hell do you do? Semi-related: I hope we get more "agendas" for democratically elected groups.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 08:09
|
|
|
I'm not sure how you could actually implement it. Maybe you could go half measures with really powerful factions, breakaway systems if the factions don't like the groups actions, and some.clever fluff?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 08:16
|
|
|
pointsofdata posted:I'm not sure how you could actually implement it. Maybe you could go half measures with really powerful factions, breakaway systems if the factions don't like the groups actions, and some.clever fluff?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 08:31
|
|
|
Just had the unbidden show up and wipe out the awakened empire I had allied with for a war in heaven. So that's fun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 08:37
|
|
|
Glass of Milk posted:Just had the unbidden show up and wipe out the awakened empire I had allied with for a war in heaven. So that's fun. That's what you get for being a bootlicker, imho
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 08:45
|
|
|
Bit late to servitor chat but what makes me think dystopia is that there's no non-biotrophy pops. No matter how nice things are, assuming somewhat human mentalities you'd always have a bunch of people who don't want to hook into the pleasurenet, if only out of contrariness. That they're not represented at all has implications, with "unwittingly LARPing the resistance" the least terrible.
Splicer fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Sep 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 08:53
|
|
|
Stellaris, and all 4Xs and Grand Strategy games, are inimical to anarchist politics because they assume a strong central state that the player directs. To an extent, they're also incapable of properly expressing capitalism given that the state builds all the things. I think Vicky and Distant Stars are the only games to even seek to take control of the economy away from the player. However, there is an anarchist faction in game already: the Marauders. It would possibly be quite fun to have others though: perhaps an analogy to the Culture that doesn't expand but exerts a strong migratory draw on surrounding empires, causing them to lose pops. Obviously, such an empire would be very strong the defensive but never attack.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 09:13
|
|
|
Aethernet posted:Stellaris, and all 4Xs and Grand Strategy games, are inimical to anarchist politics because they assume a strong central state that the player directs. To an extent, they're also incapable of properly expressing capitalism given that the state builds all the things. I think Vicky and Distant Stars are the only games to even seek to take control of the economy away from the player. It would be cool if it did model capitalism etc a bit. Like you build facilities on space ports, they got filled in by private shipyards trading companies etc and paid taxes. I like the idea of leaving anarchist societies to the Ai since they don't work well as a player faction
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 09:19
|
|
|
There was a cool political mod a while back which hadca nice touch for capitalism. If you played as a megacorp you needed to keep banking as many credits as possible to return to the shareholders. Excuse me why are you building an interstellar empire where is my dividend thank you very much?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 09:38
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Bit late to servitor chat but what makes me think dystopia is that there's no non-biotrophy pops. No matter how nice things are, assuming somewhat human mentalities you'd always have a bunch of people who don't want to hook into the pleasurenet, if only out of contrariness. That they're not represented at all has implications, with "unwittingly LARPing the resistance" the least terrible. Well, there might be -- just not enough to count as a whole Pop. Earth is what, 18 tiles or so? so when Earth is full, there's 18 Pops. Theoretically, you'd need to have 1/18th "rebelling" for it to be enough for a pop.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 09:48
|
|
|
The way to play rogue servitors who are non-dystopian is to pick that one trait that gives you some robots from the start and then play normally from there. If the goal is humans and robots co-operating, that's pretty much the default state of the game once you know how to build a robot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 10:10
|
|
|
Aethernet posted:Stellaris, and all 4Xs and Grand Strategy games, are inimical to anarchist politics because they assume a strong central state that the player directs. To an extent, they're also incapable of properly expressing capitalism given that the state builds all the things. I think Vicky and Distant Stars are the only games to even seek to take control of the economy away from the player. Could you not have a system or a personal challenge where you can only have two operated systems with devastating penalties for a third and completely impossible ones for a fourth - but with a generous sector limit? Why, you can create all kinds of entrepreneurship zones - and set low taxes, leading to an inevitable massive development boom! (Your capital planet and system represents an entrepreneurship incubator, of course, so it can be under "your" direct control, but planets must be released quickly in order to make your numbers.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 10:35
|
|
|
Aethernet posted:Stellaris, and all 4Xs and Grand Strategy games, are inimical to anarchist politics because they assume a strong central state that the player directs. To an extent, they're also incapable of properly expressing capitalism given that the state builds all the things.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 10:38
|
|
|
Wiz please forward this album art to the multiple teams you ofc have tirelessly working towards Sexy Planets DLC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t-IdXJgbOc&hd=1
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 12:16
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Leaving aside the Niven-esque perspective that anarchy is the most fragile form of government (because it vanishes at a finger touch), That's an odd position to take in a game where sociological factors are literally genetic.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 13:03
|
|
|
Gort posted:The way to play rogue servitors who are non-dystopian is to pick that one trait that gives you some robots from the start and then play normally from there. Too bad there's no way to transition from a regular empire into a rogue servitor empire. That'd be a pretty neat event chain/special project, especially if it sometimes happens to AI empires during normal play.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 13:17
|
|
|
So modding chat. I use a bunch of mods that mess with galaxy generation, Guili's planet modifiers and CGM in particular. None of the one's I've used ever change anything about the empire placement algorithm. You always get a few clear systems around you and that free planet of your native planet type and this planet never has any modifiers. Is there a way to change this placement behavior or is it hard coded?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 13:46
|
|
|
isndl posted:Too bad there's no way to transition from a regular empire into a rogue servitor empire. That'd be a pretty neat event chain/special project, especially if it sometimes happens to AI empires during normal play.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 14:00
|
|
|
Splicer posted:You could make a game where much of what your empire does is handled by the AI and you exert soft influence or outright bribes to try to steer the empire in your preferred direction. In a mixed environment with other more traditional 4x empires you'd need a hefty bonus of some kind to account for the reduced control, and in either environment the AI actions would need to be relatively consistent. Not necessarily consistently positive, just consistent. Having a band of your pops taking up piracy against your best buds or take a system to found a colony adjacent to a Xenophobe FE can be fun as long as you knew something of that negative magnitude was going to happen at some point soon, otherwise your game it s just a series of coin flips beyond your control. Majesty kinda sorta plays like this, with you ordering buildings built and tech researched, but only interact with npcs by placing bounties on monsters or terrain. Otherwise every character does what it wants to (tax collectors collect taxes, peasants build things, heroes wander randomly and kill things/run away, then spend gold in markets/shops that you then get taxes from) Majesty is fantastic. edit: I'd kill for a well-made space Majesty
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 14:21
|
|
|
kujeger posted:Majesty kinda sorta plays like this, with you ordering buildings built and tech researched, but only interact with npcs by placing bounties on monsters or terrain. Otherwise every character does what it wants to (tax collectors collect taxes, peasants build things, heroes wander randomly and kill things/run away, then spend gold in markets/shops that you then get taxes from) It also has a Sean Connery impersonation as your advisor, which seems like a major selling point to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 15:04
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Isn't that one of the AI Rebellion options? But yeah, voluntarily going into the grid would be neat. Have a smaller empire of "What no that's a terrible idea" split off etc. Actually I'm not sure, I've only interacted with the AI rebellions by ruthlessly crushing them. I was thinking more of a peaceful transition though, of the "creators have stopped managing things thanks to utopian abundance, guess we will manage for their safety" type. Doesn't seem right to always devolve into civil war.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 15:05
|
|
|
kujeger posted:Majesty kinda sorta plays like this, with you ordering buildings built and tech researched, but only interact with npcs by placing bounties on monsters or terrain. Otherwise every character does what it wants to (tax collectors collect taxes, peasants build things, heroes wander randomly and kill things/run away, then spend gold in markets/shops that you then get taxes from) isndl posted:Actually I'm not sure, I've only interacted with the AI rebellions by ruthlessly crushing them. I was thinking more of a peaceful transition though, of the "creators have stopped managing things thanks to utopian abundance, guess we will manage for their safety" type. Doesn't seem right to always devolve into civil war.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 15:10
|
|
|
Doesn’t Fred Wester love Majesty more than anything else? Maybe now that he’s out of the daily rigors of be CEO position he can focus on getting a new Majesty greenlit, cause I’d buy it!
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 15:17
|
|
|
Majesty owns. But its super hard to make a hands off game like that that doesn't frustrate the poo poo out of players. I'm not sure there's room in stellaris for that sort of a mechanic.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 15:25
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Majesty owns. But its super hard to make a hands off game like that that doesn't frustrate the poo poo out of players. I'm not sure there's room in stellaris for that sort of a mechanic. e: though to be clear this was a "I think you could make an interesting 4x without totalitarianism" rather than a "put this in Stellaris specifically yesterday!" Splicer fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Sep 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 15:38
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Bit late to servitor chat but what makes me think dystopia is that there's no non-biotrophy pops. No matter how nice things are, assuming somewhat human mentalities you'd always have a bunch of people who don't want to hook into the pleasurenet, if only out of contrariness. That they're not represented at all has implications, with "unwittingly LARPing the resistance" the least terrible. Actually the homeworld of a Rogue Servitor species has special tile blockers representing non-aligned organics. They are said to be having lots of problems dealing without robotic servitors, and have regressed technologically and culturally.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 16:05
|
|
|
Kaal posted:Actually the homeworld of a Rogue Servitor species has special tile blockers representing non-aligned organics. They are said to be having lots of problems dealing without robotic servitors, and have regressed technologically and culturally. What does clearing them do 
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 16:10
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Majesty owns. But its super hard to make a hands off game like that that doesn't frustrate the poo poo out of players. I'm not sure there's room in stellaris for that sort of a mechanic. Sadly, Majesty 2 was much worse than the first game. I thought all the new units were super neat, but the cost inflation for duplicate buildings felt terribly unfun. But Paradox did publish the second game, it would be super cool if they decided to have a third game made.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 16:15
|
|
|
Torrannor posted:Sadly, Majesty 2 was much worse than the first game. I thought all the new units were super neat, but the cost inflation for duplicate buildings felt terribly unfun. Agreed, and apparently Paradox wasn't too happy with how it turned out either. Maybe one day!
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 16:17
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Where do you think the nutrient paste comes from? Don't worry though they go to the nice resort planet set up just in the system next door.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 16:45
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Probably the same thing that happens whenever you clear "slum" tile blockers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 16:46
|
|
|
This has been the opposite of reassuring.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 17:13
|
|
|
Torrannor posted:Sadly, Majesty 2 was much worse than the first game. I thought all the new units were super neat, but the cost inflation for duplicate buildings felt terribly unfun. Yeah, I wanted so much to like Majesty 2 but it was missing something, something just wasn't working despite being 90% the same. It's quite a unique game, I really hope to see a Majesty 3 one day made by people who really get what made the first one so special and good. Things like even democracy are hard to represent in games like Stellaris. Just like simcity doesn't represent any sort of city politics, you're god of your country in stellaris. But in the real world so much of what a country or city does is pushed by politics, is pushed by the leadership wanting to stay in power. The long term best interests of the society are often thrown to the side in the name of short term power grabs, but this can't really be represented in a game with the player not playing a leader but rather playing the "spirit" of the society. CK2 is cool because you do play an individual character, although even then you have the big-picture of your dynasty in mind as well. When games like this, where you're the demigod of your nation, introduce more hands-off mechanics its often extremely frustrating. Sectors created so much rage in this game as you sat there watching the AI "do it wrong". Watching your idiot allies and vassals be extemely unhelpful in a war is also awful. Or sitting back and watching capitalists build yet another clipper factroy in Victoria. Free Market was nearly a trap, everyone wanted to be state capitalist in that game so you could actually run your country until you had a really solid economy going and maybe sort of can let your country go free-market. If I'm the guiding spirit of my country I prefer to have some level of control over everything. Just abstract things like political will and support into mana like influence and unity. Playing an anarcho-capitalist empire? Sure have some special mechanics but don't try to program an AI to automate huge portions of your empire to simulate that system, the player now represents the combined interests of the various corporate syndicates which present the player with an estate-like balancing act of interests that reward with influence and punish with instability and economic penalties. Don't try to take the concept literally because you'll never automate an interesting system. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Sep 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 17:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 14:49 |
|
|
Splicer posted:Bit late to servitor chat but what makes me think dystopia is that there's no non-biotrophy pops. No matter how nice things are, assuming somewhat human mentalities you'd always have a bunch of people who don't want to hook into the pleasurenet, if only out of contrariness. That they're not represented at all has implications, with "unwittingly LARPing the resistance" the least terrible. Good sci-fi is often a metaphor for our current society. I look at rogue servitors and see a future society in which one group keeps another group captive, exerts control over their reproduction, insists that being deprived of responsibility and agency is for their own good, systematically excludes them from positions of power and influence, and refers to the captive group using objectifying language. Sounds familiar. I like utopian sci-fi. But I don't think the rogue servitors pass muster.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2018 17:44
|
|
