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THC posted:they're on the side of the Liberal Party. it's dumb to expect or call on them to live up to any expectations beyond that they're the same party as the conservatives, p. much further evidence: they COULD actually stop ford's idiotic use of the notwithstanding clause but that would bring them the ultimate shame: violating decorum
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Sep 11, 2018 05:44
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it's why i say trudeau is our obama, because he's just as spineless and lovely the only improvement is the lack of a drone army
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Sep 11, 2018 05:45
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Yinlock posted:they purposely sabotaged the side they claim to be on because they would rather have doug loving ford, a man who's brain is 50% cocaine and 50% lust for mayorship, than someone who is even the tiniest hair to the left Look at this guy, suggesting that the OLP may, possibly, be duplicitous. Nobody considers them much to the left anymore which is why it's silly to blame them for not helping the left win. Let me try rephrasing this stupid point for you but only one last time because I'm also sick of this The OLP did most of the damage to progressive politics in this province by creating a strong association between "progressive government" and Kathleen Wynne/OLP. A few final attack ads against the ndp were the sprinkles on the icing on the cake.
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Sep 11, 2018 05:46
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Look at this guy, suggesting that the OLP may, possibly, be duplicitous. Nobody considers them much to the left anymore which is why it's silly to blame them for not helping the left win. Let me try rephrasing this stupid point for you but only one last time because I'm also sick of this that's...actually a fair point though a ton of people consider the olp the left, which is The Problem the conservatives also work to get trudeau labelled as a far-left extremist
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Sep 11, 2018 05:49
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Yinlock posted:further evidence: they COULD actually stop ford's idiotic use of the notwithstanding clause but that would bring them the ultimate shame: violating decorum wait what? who could? the PCPO has a majority no one can stop them passing the notwithstanding legislation except the Conservatives themselves*. the OLP has seven seats. seven. *or, i guess a mass of people with torches and rakes, but we don't really go in for that poo poo much these days
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Sep 11, 2018 05:49
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Yinlock posted:they're the same party as the conservatives, p. much well, not exactly but at times, effectively. I guess at least with UK Liberals you have a recent, specific example of them actually making a formal coalition with the Conservative party and signing off on round after round of austerity, and you always have that to point to so it makes it really easy the Liberal Party of Canada didn't make a coalition with the Conservatives but it did prop them up and sign off on their agenda for years. and with a significant overlap in ideology, supporters and personnel, the Ontario Liberal party is clearly its closest cousin and analogue out of all the parties called Liberal. They'd rather be in power of course and not the tories, but they will always protect the ruling class, and they will never help the NDP
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Sep 11, 2018 05:53
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The federal branch of the OLP?
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Sep 11, 2018 05:54
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Postess with the Mostest posted:The federal branch of the OLP? oh, right. sorta. maybe. also that would just be the Liberal party, but sure, it's a lot of the same folks. the consequences are huge though since it's technically a valid use of section 33. they'd just be straight up dicking with a lower government, on an issue that is entirely the jurisdiction of that government. basically considerably worse than what doug was already doing to toronto. infernal machines has issued a correction as of 07:32 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 06:00
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infernal machines posted:oh, right. sorta. maybe. also that would just be the Liberal party, but sure, it's a lot of the same folks. the consequences apparently don't mean anything, and you know the conservatives would do the same without hesitation
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Sep 11, 2018 06:15
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also amazing how conservatives now consider the entire judiciary to be evil left-wing extremists overnight
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Sep 11, 2018 06:19
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maybe now. in the past, conservatives like brian mulroney and mike harris were completely against the use of the notwithstanding clause
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Sep 11, 2018 06:20
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infernal machines posted:maybe now. in the past, conservatives like brian mulroney and mike harris were completely against the use of the notwithstanding clause which is reasonable because having an "out" in a bill of rights is insanely dumb
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Sep 11, 2018 06:24
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I wasn’t really paying attention to the Ontario provincial election, but I am confident that the PCs won because more people in Ontario voted for them than one of the other parties. I know that is uncomfortable to hear if you are a resident of Ontario. Sorry. Enjoy getting not withstanding claused for the next 15 years.
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Sep 11, 2018 06:25
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ocrumsprug posted:I wasn’t really paying attention to the Ontario provincial election, but I am confident that the PCs won because more people in Ontario voted for them than one of the other parties. hot take
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Sep 11, 2018 06:26
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ocrumsprug posted:I wasn’t really paying attention to the Ontario provincial election, but I am confident that the PCs won because more people in Ontario voted for them than one of the other parties. about that
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Sep 11, 2018 06:28
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Gonna own when BC uses it to super kill Trans-Mountain. Thanks Mr. Ford for showing the Charter can just be tossed for any silly reason.
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Sep 11, 2018 06:29
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ocrumsprug posted:Gonna own when BC uses it to super kill Trans-Mountain. this isn't the first time it's been tried, but previous attempts got shut down due to either public pressure or the supreme court being like "uh no" of course trudeau could stop it but yknow 
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Sep 11, 2018 06:31
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Yinlock posted:the supreme court being like "uh no" yeah, this happens when it's invoked for something that's covered by a protected section of the charter, or because it's something that is the mandate of the federal government. those are the only two reasons it can be shot down by the courts. the thing in ontario is neither
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Sep 11, 2018 06:34
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imo firing half your past political opponents out of spite is really cool
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Sep 11, 2018 06:35
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Yinlock posted:this isn't the first time it's been tried, but previous attempts got shut down due to either public pressure or the supreme court being like "uh no" Pretty sure 20 Toronto city council people is a bigger GDP hit than the pipeline is, so we will see if he stands up for Canadian jobs.
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Sep 11, 2018 06:36
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Baloogan posted:imo firing half your past political opponents out of spite is really cool yes, but we've established you're a chud, of course you think that
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Sep 11, 2018 06:43
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Baloogan posted:imo firing half your past political opponents out of spite is really cool that cuck trump still hasn't triggered a constitutional crisis in years, ford did it in months get on our level, usa
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Sep 11, 2018 06:47
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chad ford's crack smoking video vs virgin trump piss tape
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Sep 11, 2018 06:48
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ocrumsprug posted:Pretty sure 20 Toronto city council people is a bigger GDP hit than the pipeline is, so we will see if he stands up for Canadian jobs. hard to say, depends on how many council people are rich if enough are he might step in
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Sep 11, 2018 06:51
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infernal machines posted:oh, right. sorta. maybe. also that would just be the Liberal party, but sure, it's a lot of the same folks. on the one hand I'm like surely, Trudeau isn't stupid enough to do this but on the other hand, it's hellworld baby! 
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Sep 11, 2018 06:56
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on another note, i missed the part where thc and yinlock switched to talking about the federal liberals. mea culpa
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Sep 11, 2018 07:30
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Oh that's what happened there. I was confused too.
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Sep 11, 2018 07:53
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Regarding the notwithstanding clause, I was reading it today and I'm definitely not a constitutional scholar but it seems to imply that it only applies to things that would violate the Charter in the first place. Alberta's gay marriage ban (which I didn't realize until now didn't do anything since marriage is Federal jurisdiction lol) and Saskatchewan strike breaking were rulings on things that violated the Charter. As far as I can tell, despite the provincial ruling, it could be argued that resizing council doesn't violate any Charter rights, it's just a dick move. Citizens can still vote, their vote just means less. If it's not violating Charter rights can you even use the notwithstanding clause? Moist von Lipwig has issued a correction as of 08:03 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 07:58
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aaag dude, read jpag's twitter thread. the judge ruled that bill 5 violated our section 2(b) charter rights. basically, campaigning and voting are free expression, and changing the rules in the middle of the election violated our right to that. the notwithstanding clause can make exemptions in the case of section 2 rights, and that's why we're boned. there was also some awkward poo poo about effective representation that probably didn't directly tie in to a charter violation but was used to support the other arguments, realistically this would probably lose on appeal, but DoFo has too much of a hardon to wait for that, so they went nuclear instead. the province originally argued that they can do whatever the gently caress when it comes to municipal elections, and they are not in any way covered by the charter. the judge disagreed and said that while they can abolish the municipal government, or change its makeup at will, since they created it and it exists now, the changes they make must adhere to the charter such as it can be applied to people's right to free expression via voting. SENSUAL DAD KISS posted:If it's not violating Charter rights can you even use the notwithstanding clause? no, which is why everyone was laughing when they suggested they'd try that to oppose the federal carbon tax mandate. infernal machines has issued a correction as of 08:11 on Sep 11, 2018 |
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Sep 11, 2018 08:05
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I like how it can't be challenged under s3 democratic rights - inviolable under s33 - because municipal elections aren't covered, only fed and prov elections
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Sep 11, 2018 08:11
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Yeah I read some of it, I guess I'm wondering if there's some other violation here that could be ruled on instead of a Charter one because I really want to see Ford claim he's purposely violating the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a response.
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Sep 11, 2018 08:12
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Boner Pill Connoisseur posted:I like how it can't be challenged under s3 democratic rights - inviolable under s33 - because municipal elections aren't covered, only fed and prov elections if it could we'd suddenly create a third layer of government, whole cloth, from case law. i mean, we should, but don't nobody want that responsibility
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Sep 11, 2018 08:14
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SENSUAL DAD KISS posted:Yeah I read some of it, I guess I'm wondering if there's some other violation here that could be ruled on instead of a Charter one because I really want to see Ford claim he's purposely violating the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as a response. i'm not sure i follow you here, but it has to be a charter challenge because nothing else trumps the province's control over the municipality. also, to invoke the notwithstanding clause, the province explicitly have to define the how and why of their charter violating law.
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Sep 11, 2018 08:17
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Well, I'm trying to figure out how equal freedom of expression and freedom of speech are. If it could be ruled as a violation of free speech under the bill of Rights instead (no idea if that's even possible) then you get around the notwithstanding clause.
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Sep 11, 2018 08:50
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SENSUAL DAD KISS posted:Well, I'm trying to figure out how equal freedom of expression and freedom of speech are. If it could be ruled as a violation of free speech under the bill of Rights instead (no idea if that's even possible) then you get around the notwithstanding clause. the canadian bill of rights only applies to federal law
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Sep 11, 2018 12:35
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Postess with the Mostest posted:The real bad guy here is first past the post I guess but that was there from the start. PCs had enough support to win from the start and nothing changed it. PCs need less support to win than the NDPs because of efficient voter distribution so they were certainly the underdogs. Charitably, the NDP failed to communicate their platform or make it appealing. Realistically, most people did understand the ndp platform, messaging and core values and still just voted PC or Lib because they aren't interested in that kind of thing and just want to afford a bit more groceries or porsches or grolsches every week. I guess they're kind of political scabs? I think it's day dreaming to think that this election was the ndp's to win if only the libs hadn't X, you're giving too much non existent progressive credit to the people who showed up to vote. NDP were never going to win. I agree that FPTP is the bad guy. My point was that within the current system the Liberals purposely ensured the then high-polling NDP would receive much fewer votes from typical liberal voters. Former liberal insider Warren Kinsella said so early in the campaign. And it wasn't long before the Liberals started fear mongering about a potential NDP government. Now, given the limitations of polling, it's hard to tell how that affected the election results, especially riding by riding. PCPO got 40.5%, ONDP 33.6%, OLP %19.6, and Greens 4.6%. It's not much of a stretch to conclude the Liberals last minute hail Mary has contributed to Doug Ford's majority. I'm probably giving too much progressive credit to Ontario voters. You're right. That means no matter how hard the NDP campaigned, they would have plateaued anyway. So we can't really say it's the NDP's fault we have Ford in power?
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Sep 11, 2018 12:45
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it's ontarians' fault we have doug ford in power because ontarians, like all canadians, are horrible garbage people
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Sep 11, 2018 12:49
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vyelkin posted:it's ontarians' fault we have doug ford in power because ontarians, like all canadians, are horrible garbage people You guys are depressing when you're right e: so what's the most realistic way to counter the tide of stupidity? I think prop rep would help but won't do any good if better policies don't reach voters
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Sep 11, 2018 12:58
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prime minister ford
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Sep 11, 2018 12:59
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rob ford memorial international airport
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Sep 11, 2018 13:00
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