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Hoodwinker posted:I would be surprised to hear you end up struggling significantly more than most developers out there once you get on track. I'm glad to hear you're giving it a shot, though. I know there are threads here on SA that focus on both developing skills and on development opportunities. I'm sure they can provide you some more support. yo this is a really good post. Fear of change is such a killer.
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Aug 30, 2018 23:12
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Partly thanks to this thread, I asked for a promotion (a change in title rather than responsibilities, basically reflecting what I already do) and a 12% raise and got them. Which kinda makes me wonder if I should have asked for more, but still 
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Aug 31, 2018 12:57
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The first lesson is always ask, and until people learn the first lesson they miss out on opportunities. The second lesson is know when you've won. It sounds like you got what you wanted, so be content!
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Aug 31, 2018 13:37
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I will have to have my wife read the last page as she works in a semi software development capacity and is constantly telling me she has no experience with that specific thing, she can’t apply and won’t talk to any recruiters about it. I tried to tell her it’s her (10 years) of experience and MS degree that matters and her problem solving capability, the fact that she can learn new things quickly, not the fact that you haven’t worked with that specific product. She’s paid well at her current employer, but could make so much more elsewhere in a job that would challenge her more.
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Aug 31, 2018 14:52
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We have literally hired people at my company who have never programmed before but had a degree in philosophy or logic or something and now that person is an invaluable asset. Do never not learn to program.
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Aug 31, 2018 14:59
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Cacafuego posted:I will have to have my wife read the last page as she works in a semi software development capacity and is constantly telling me she has no experience with that specific thing, she can’t apply and won’t talk to any recruiters about it. I tried to tell her it’s her (10 years) of experience and MS degree that matters and her problem solving capability, the fact that she can learn new things quickly, not the fact that you haven’t worked with that specific product. I think it depends. If believe that if the market is bad or this is your first job then having the specific experience they ask for is more of a priority to the company doing the hiring. Same thing if they're struggling to solve some problem internally and they are hiring people explicitly to deal with it (often a futile exercise anyway as the new hire still has to learn their domain). But yeah, for the most part being a developer is more about knowing how to come up with a solution rather than having one and she should be applying to everything she thinks sounds interesting.
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Aug 31, 2018 17:51
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Every large city and even most smaller ones have software developer communities. Anyone who feels like they aren't a "real" dev, I highly recommend getting out and participating in a community or two. If you really do have holes you'll fill them and if you don't you'll realize you're just as good as anyone. Usually it's people with similar interests too and it's nice to make friends.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:25
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I'm curious how people handle when a company publishes a salary range (fairly broad in this case, 40k) for a position, particularly when any point along the range would be an increase. I'm well qualified for the positional duties, but not familiar with this company's industry. Familiarity with the industry is specifically called out in the nice to have section of the job description. My gut feeling is to ask for MAX-$10k, which would still be a great salary for the position and the area, and a big increase for me, but it kinda feels weird knowing I'm in essence leaving money on the table. This is likely hypothetical, or at the very least getting ahead of myself, since it is a remote job advertised widely, with no guarantees that I'll get an interview, much less an offer. But it isn't a situation I've encountered before and I'm curious what people would do.
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Sep 6, 2018 19:35
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Grumpwagon posted:I'm curious how people handle when a company publishes a salary range (fairly broad in this case, 40k) for a position, particularly when any point along the range would be an increase. They've told you what they're willing to pay; why ask for a dollar less?
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Sep 7, 2018 05:15
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Grumpwagon posted:I'm curious how people handle when a company publishes a salary range (fairly broad in this case, 40k) for a position, particularly when any point along the range would be an increase.
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Sep 8, 2018 00:29
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If I goofed and named a number for an out-of-town job under pressure of a cold call, can I recover? The HR department has been very evasive, and I have to negotiate with them. I flew out to interview with BigCorp in a high COL city, the team quickly moved me through the process, and they want to hire me. I know a hard-to-find skill at a senior level, and there aren't any suitable locals. The last step is to negotiate with HR. I feel like it's treated as taboo to discuss salary with anyone other than HR, so I didn't ask my potential boss during the in-person interview. I'm worrying about this call because I messed up and named a low number during the first phone call with HR, which went like this: HR Rep: "Hi, I'm HR Rep calling from BigCorp. Are you still interested in the job?" Me: "Yes, I didn't expect to hear back from you since it's been three months since I applied." HR Rep: "Great. What salary would you need to accept this job?" Me: "I'm more interested in hearing the details of the job and culture fit, then how about we talk about that?" HR Rep: "That's great. I'd love to tell you more, but I can't move forward until you tell me your salary expectations." Me: "Well, I'm more interested in the entire compensation package. Bonus structure, PTO, 401(k) matching, etc. I'm interested in hearing about all the pieces of the compensation package." HR Rep: "I'm sorry, but we can't move forward until you give me a figure." Me: "I live in a lower cost of living city. I know my local market, but I have no idea what a proper salary should be in your city. What is the salary range?" HR Rep: "Really? You applied to a job in this city and have absolutely no idea how much you should be getting paid?" At this point, she wore me down by deflecting and suggesting I was stupid. I wanted her to name the first number, but I gave in because she made me appear stupid (which was self-fulfilling when I replied with a number) and because my current job is a circus, so I wanted to continue the conversation. This was the only job I applied for in the city, and it had been months since I applied, so I didn't know how much should be adjusted for COL. Me: "Well, I would imagine it would have to be at least [low number] to [low number + 10k]." HR Rep: "(silence) I think that's workable. [low number] is in our range. You know, you're at a disadvantage as a remote candidate. Would you need relocation assistance?" Me: "I would think so. I would need a very good offer to not receive any. What is the salary range?" HR Rep: "I think we could do [low number]...maybe [low number + 5k] plus some relocation costs." Me: "I just don't know. Is that in your range? Can we talk about the job now?" Fast forward to today, now I know: A relocation package is automatically included Anything below [low number + 10k] would be a paycut relative to COL Rent + taxes are way higher than I thought My research suggests [low number + 20k] would be competitive (but I still don't know the range) So my questions for you goons are: 1. Can I re-orient negotiations (perhaps on the basis of ignorance of COL or being hard to find?), or have I anchored myself irreparably? 2. How could I get HR to reveal the salary range or get out of this game of me shooting in the dark? 3. If they continue to evade and I'm forced to target a salary (one that's too high) might they shut me out? 4. In the final round, my potential boss said I could reach out to him with any questions. Should I contact him to ask about salary and go around HR? I have a feeling that's a bad idea, but I'm not used to HR departments being so secretive (there are other details I omitted to avoid a total wall of text), and the boss was eager to get me on board. Moist Chowder fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 8, 2018 |
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Sep 8, 2018 02:44
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Moist Chowder posted:If I goofed and named a number for an out-of-town job under pressure of a cold call, can I recover? The HR department has been very evasive, and I have to negotiate with them. That's going to be an absolutely miserable place to work and nothing of value will be lost if you just walk away.
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Sep 8, 2018 13:30
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quote:HR Rep: "Really? You applied to a job in this city and have absolutely no idea how much you should be getting paid?" shame on an IGA posted:That's going to be an absolutely miserable place to work and nothing of value will be lost if you just walk away.
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Sep 8, 2018 14:55
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If it's a large operation, it's possible HR and your prospective unit are misaligned enough that you could appeal to the hiring manager. They might be able to push for a better deal. It's also possible that they're so screwed up hr controls the hiring over the people who actually know the job, which has somehow become common. In that case... F-them. I wouldn't move cities for a place acting like that if there are any other options.
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Sep 8, 2018 15:19
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shame on an IGA posted:That's going to be an absolutely miserable place to work and nothing of value will be lost if you just walk away.
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Sep 8, 2018 15:41
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But to be clear, you should run not walk
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Sep 8, 2018 17:53
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“After I had some time to think over our last conversation, I am no longer interested in working for your company. Goodbye.”
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Sep 8, 2018 19:36
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i think you could do without the goodbye
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Sep 9, 2018 18:28
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I gave my notice last week. I did it without a conversation with my current employer for two reasons: I had to wait to get a large bonus to give my notice, and it’s a big raise (30%) in addition to being a promotion and a great opportunity and I didn’t think my work would be able to match (it’s not just the money). I’ve been told that they are possibly willing to make me an offer I can’t refuse. I honestly don’t know what that looks like. Is there a scenario where you would stay after giving notice? I don’t think the normal “they’ll be looking for a replacement” advice applies just based on conversations I’ve had. I think this is about wanting me to stay long term. Note that as with all things I could be wrong. I’m going to have a conversation with my partner about this and I don’t want to be blindsided with an ask without thinking about it beforehand. There is a cost here in that I would burn a bridge with the competitor I signed with. I think if I leave I don’t necessarily burn the bridge with my current employer. I’m not sure what else I need to consider.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:53
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Jordan7hm posted:I’ve been told that they are possibly willing to make me an offer I can’t refuse. I honestly don’t know what that looks like. A multi-year commitment from them with a gigantic golden parachute. In writing. Reviewed by your own employment/contract attorney and fully executed by both parties.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:38
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Jordan7hm posted:I gave my notice last week. I did it without a conversation with my current employer for two reasons: I had to wait to get a large bonus to give my notice, and it’s a big raise (30%) in addition to being a promotion and a great opportunity and I didn’t think my work would be able to match (it’s not just the money). Of course there's a scenario were you could stay after giving notice. Just make sure you are being completely honest with your current employer (and yourself) about what it would take to keep you there.
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Sep 10, 2018 20:39
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i would stay after giving notice if i was given a big chunk of equity
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Sep 10, 2018 21:37
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I don't think there's any reasonable offer that would make me stay. How able and willing are you to ask for something unreasonable? (It's gotta be some large amount right now, nothing that can be revoked by firing you.)
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Sep 10, 2018 21:44
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I think there's an intangible value to changing environments that no amount of money short of Oprah money can justify staying. Growth comes from meaningful change.
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Sep 10, 2018 22:05
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How to negotiate a raise? The place I work are involved in the yearly negotiations with the union, and basically I stand a better chance of getting one if my boss agree that I should. We're currently hiring, and based on the range they give out in their ad I'm basically sitting at 15% of what they're willing to pay. Local guidelines say raises are given out based on results, changes in workload and the need to retain talent. I believe I've shown some pretty impressive results, and even though I've only got a little over a year and a half of experience I've basically become tech-lead ever since the actual one took a parenting-related leave of absence. I am regularly consulted on or left to make my own design decisions that exceed what is expected based on my title. As for the last part, I did get a job offer, but decided not to take it. It expired a week ago anyway. We are looking to scale down, but for political reasons the company cannot really fire anyone right now. Do I bring the offer up as part of the negotiations? The offer I got corresponds to about the 33% mark of the available pay scale, which is not great (part of why I did not take it), but I'd be very happy with it as a raise.
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Sep 10, 2018 23:11
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Motronic posted:A multi-year commitment from them with a gigantic golden parachute. In writing. Reviewed by your own employment/contract attorney and fully executed by both parties. This is the correct answer. Biomute posted:How to negotiate a raise? With a different employer.
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Sep 11, 2018 00:40
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So here's a situation. My employer had a detail opportunity open up in a fairly hip/interesting department elsewhere in the country and one of the folks in that department reached out to me because they thought I would be a good fit. It's just a temporary detail with the same pay, but the work is high profile and a good direction career-wise. I had some issues that I figured would prevent me from taking it though and I told them I wouldn't move and I was already committed at least 25% to something else. They came back and told me I could do it remotely (no commute!) and they'd take 75%. I spoke with my department head about it and they said absolutely not, that we were too short staffed. Now. I could still take the detail, but it would burn bridges if I did so. Especially when the details end I could see myself coming back to a damaged relationship. BUT I was also thinking of jumping ship and quitting come next year anyway because I've just about maxed my opportunities in my current office and I'm becoming dissatisfied with the work. Any advice?
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Sep 12, 2018 00:41
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Yeah, I have some advice.El Mero Mero posted:I spoke with my department head about it and they said absolutely not, that we were too short staffed. Your department head should turbofuck him/herself with a garden rake. The relevant question here is: is this person powerful enough in the company to prevent you from transferring? If no, take the transfer and begin looking for your next job, knowing you won't be going back. If yes, drop it and begin looking for your next job, because even having the conversation with your department head about it 100% put you on their shitlist. Just their reaction makes it clear what kind of person they are.
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Sep 12, 2018 00:49
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I kinda think you should skip the one-year stall and just go apply to new jobs now. Even if you don't get an offer you love, convincing yourself you can just go do that should help you feel confident making the right choices for yourself instead of your department. They might just say a number that solves this problem before it starts. That said, if you want this detail, you should commit yourself to leaving next year - don't leave room for just complacently tolerating unhappy supervisors.
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Sep 12, 2018 00:57
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah, I have some advice. I mean, in her defense we had a key person announce that they'd be leaving soonish last week, so she's not wrong. I think I may carefully thread the politics on this and see if the department head of the person hiring for the detail would require my manager to be okay with the detail. If so, then I'll stick it out until next summer (there are significant financial benefits of doing so) and if not I'll burn the bridge and not look back.
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Sep 12, 2018 05:47
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El Mero Mero posted:I mean, in her defense we had a key person announce that they'd be leaving soonish last week, so she's not wrong.. That’s her misfortune. But blocking your career for selfish reasons is never anything but a dick move on her part. You owe her nothing. If you don’t do what’s right for you first, foremost, and always, you’ll spend your life getting stepped on by opportunists and pragmatists. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Sep 12, 2018 |
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Sep 12, 2018 12:04
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You absolutely should be looking for a new job but your department head doesn’t owe you anything. Not letting you leave on an assignment when it puts her department’s work in jeopardy is doing her job. Assignments are horrible for managers in a lot of cases. You often lose the person but can’t hire to replace them because theoretically the person is coming back even if you know they’re not. All that being said, you’ve made a decision to leave so you should leave one way or another. Also - thanks for advice upthread. Meeting with partner today. I’ve been trying to work out what would get me to stay, and unreasonable is the key word there. I don’t think it makes sense to stay. I just hope I can leave on good terms.
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Sep 12, 2018 12:27
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Jordan7hm posted:You absolutely should be looking for a new job but your department head doesn’t owe you anything. Not letting you leave on an assignment when it puts her department’s work in jeopardy is doing her job. All of this is very true and I’ve been there as a manager too. But my move in that situation was to say “I’m sorry but right this moment your role is critical to this project and I can’t let you move. But in three months’ time I will let you go. And here’s a small bonus as a thank you.” (It actually ended up being two months, and the bonus essentially came out of my pocket.) SOME managers actually respect their employees as individuals with their own careers to mind, and balance their own department’s needs against that. But most managers (like most employees!) are just selfish dicks. There’s also the element of what’s good for the long term (a reputation as a manager people trust and want to work for is immensely valuable in the long term) versus what’s good for the short term (if this particular person leaves it might result in my department failing and my getting fired, so I will do absolutely anything to prevent this particular person from leaving). But in modern corporate America there’s practically no such thing as a long term anymore.
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Sep 12, 2018 12:37
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ok the idea that you have to pay out a bonus in that case is patently absurd
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Sep 12, 2018 12:55
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Long term is “what if we end up at the same (different) company together down the road”.
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Sep 12, 2018 13:11
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:ok the idea that you have to pay out a bonus in that case is patently absurd Didn’t HAVE to. I did it because she was awesome and I appreciated her having a good attitude about staying around and delaying a transfer she would rather have made. My boss agreed with you about it though 
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Sep 12, 2018 13:30
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Hi thread, Currently working in an advertising agency.
I would take the fact that I got into this situation as a bad mark against my judgement so sense checking would be prudent. Do I have a quick chat with the new company head and say I would like a review of my salary, roles and responsibilities? What is my play? My boss is going on holiday for 5 weeks so I imagine I would take more responsibilities over this time.
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Sep 12, 2018 14:12
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Sometimes a manager really is just lazy and incompetent and that’s the while story. But often, he just looks that way to his employees because instead of working, he spends all his time networking. Among other things including taking credit for all the work you do. So when you try to stage a coup on his rear end you find out the hard way that he is very firmly entrenched. Your play is to move on to a new employer.
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Sep 12, 2018 14:19
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I'm sure this has been brought up before, but would a standing "you should probably just switch jobs" thing be useful in the OP? If most posts get replies that are either "you don't want to work there, run", or "your play is to find a new place to work" that's more like /r/relationships than a thread about negotiation. It's probably good advice, but it's not really on topic.
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Sep 12, 2018 14:32
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Biomute posted:I'm sure this has been brought up before, but would a standing "you should probably just switch jobs" thing be useful in the OP? If most posts get replies that are either "you don't want to work there, run", or "your play is to find a new place to work" that's more like /r/relationships than a thread about negotiation. It's probably good advice, but it's not really on topic. I think the key here is that negotiating is mostly something you do when you get a new job.
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Sep 12, 2018 14:44
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