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skasion posted:Nah, that’s just Aragorn, who gets to be Elrond’s fosterling and third-in-command to his sons growing up. The rest of the Dunedain aren’t on retainer. The Tale of A&A says that it was Estel’s impressive performance on one of Elladan and Elrohir’s goblin pogroms that convinced Elrond to tell him who he was and give him the ring of Barahir. For the previous 1000 years he couldn’t give a gently caress. He grew up in Rivendell though, didn't he? Elrond kept a random Dunedain around at all times so he could give them a fancy sceptre and sword and his daughter whenever he needed a kingdom in the South to fight some battles. Yer a forgotten heir, Arry!
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Sep 12, 2018 15:20
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He did, but there’s no indication that this was a standard practice or that any other Dúnedain were with him apart from his mother. Elrond doesn’t seem to have maintained especially strong ties with the chieftains until Aragorn forges a strong personal relationship with him. Honestly the whole business reads kind of like there was a power struggle after Arathorn’s death and the losers fled to hide with distant relations, like Genghis Khan. The notion that he was in hiding, ignorant of his own identity because Sauron was hunting Isildur’s heir is proposed by the text, but not especially well borne out by it. Maybe the danger was closer to home.
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Sep 12, 2018 15:30
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The idea of a young Estel being rolled up in a carpet by one of his uncles and trampled to death with horses is pretty funny.
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Sep 12, 2018 15:49
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skasion posted:He did, but there’s no indication that this was a standard practice or that any other Dúnedain were with him apart from his mother. Elrond doesn’t seem to have maintained especially strong ties with the chieftains until Aragorn forges a strong personal relationship with him. Honestly the whole business reads kind of like there was a power struggle after Arathorn’s death and the losers fled to hide with distant relations, like Genghis Khan. The notion that he was in hiding, ignorant of his own identity because Sauron was hunting Isildur’s heir is proposed by the text, but not especially well borne out by it. Maybe the danger was closer to home. I think it was a combination of Aragorn's identity being protected since Sauron would hunt for him but also Elrond not wanting Aragorn to know until Aragorn had earned the right so to speak. Elrond won't give Aragorn the scepter of Annunimas until he earns it, and he won't let Aragorn wed Arwen either until he's King of Gondor. Elrond is like that strict dad who won't let his son drive a car until he's mowed the lawn and got a job. But yes Gondor isn't going to accept some random vagabond hobo king. Even with Aragorn's titles the only way he could come into the kingship was by earning it by liberating Gondor from Sauron's siege. And judging by what Denethor said before he died, that might not even have been enough had Denethor not gone mad with grief and slain himself. Aragorn was fortunate that Denethor died and that Faramir had no desire to contest the matter. It's interesting to imagine a scenario where Gondor survives the siege with Aragorn's help but Denethor doesn't kill himself. Would Denethor have yielded to Aragorn? Popular sentiment would have been on Aragorn's side at that point, but Denethor is a proud dude and one in whom the Numenorean blood runs pretty true. He wouldn't have been intimidated by Aragorn's bearing or strength as he was pretty strong himself. I'd guess that he still would have ultimately yielded (with much complaint) due to the pressures of Gandalf and other lords of Gondor to do so. Also man did a lot of the Dunedain have lovely deaths. Aragorn's father dies by getting shot through the eye by an Orc arrow while hunting Orcs with Elrond's sons. Aragorn's grandfather, Arador (I guess the Dunedain really loved dudes with Ara in their name. They're like some hick family that names every kid with a J.) died by getting captured by Hill Trolls in the Coldfells near Rivendell. Aragorn's great great grandfather Argonui died from unclear circumstances but probably due to the Fell Winter (that infamous winter where even the Shire froze over and Hobbits got attacked by wolves). Argonui's father Arathorn the first also died to wolves. The Dunedain had a really lovely time of it until Aragorn restored the kingship.
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Sep 12, 2018 16:26
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I really doubt Denethor cedes power to Aragorn if he lives. I'm not even sure Boromir would have despite his dying declaration. Denethor knew who Aragorn was, he just didn't care, and ultimately, the troops in Gondor are gonna follow the Steward they've grown up with, not some random stranger. My guess is that Aragorn would have gotten set up in some sort of ceremonial role akin to the modern british crown -- technically king, but actual job description reads "tourist attraction." Similar to what the Master of Lake-Town planned for Thorin.
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Sep 12, 2018 16:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I really doubt Denethor cedes power to Aragorn if he lives. I'm not even sure Boromir would have despite his dying declaration. Denethor knew who Aragorn was, he just didn't care, and ultimately, the troops in Gondor are gonna follow the Steward they've grown up with, not some random stranger. I don't know simply because Aragorn is really popular in the aftermath of the siege. He goes around healing people, and his arrival basically saves the day in the war as well. The people pretty much immediately seem to love him. Would that be enough to displace Denethor? I dunno. Depends how loyal the soldiers would have been to Denethor at that point, and how much they believed Aragorn's claims. And also Aragorn himself might not have been pushy about it if Denethor wouldn't yield. Aragorn doesn't even want to enter the city at first until he thinks it's okay to do so as he doesn't want to cause a fuss with his appearance and cause strife between Gondor and the Dunedain.
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Sep 12, 2018 16:39
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It's a pattern in Tolkien's works that the best, most impressive person always ends up ruling in each society but he almost never bothers to write out the details of how it happened. Even with Aragorn the details are kind of sketchy
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Sep 12, 2018 16:50
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“Ar” is a royal prefix associated with the kings of Númenor. The later kings of Arthedain adopted it as an obligatory name element as their prestige and state declined. Men not in a direct position to adopt the chieftaincy don’t seem to have used it (Halbarad, Dirhael, etc). Aragorn gets the kingship because the most powerful allies, officers and vassals of Gondor all have strong relationships with him and acknowledge his claim. Éomer, Faramir, and Imrahil all support him, and so does Gandalf who is overall leader of their war against Sauron. His refusal to enter the city as its king is an essential piece of political theater to show that he is not there just to grab power, but respects its traditions and will wait to hear its judgment: that he is not going to be a barracks emperor who relies on the soldiery to uplift him to authority, but will deal with the traditional elite and push his claim in a proper way. As to the steward: Denethor made eminently clear that he would never accept Aragorn as king. Not puppet king, not real king, not ceremonial king, not king. “I will not bow to such a one.” Gandalf gave Denethor enough wood and oil to burn himself with, and his only serious complaint with how that goes down is that the threat Denethor posed to Faramir’s life forced him to abandon the battle and directly led to Theoden’s death at Angmar‘s hand. Faramir is a wizard’s pupil and Denethor and Gandalf both know that as steward he will do as Gandalf thinks best.
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Sep 12, 2018 16:51
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One thing that might have hurt Denethor’s support is he basically stopped trying to run anything the second Faramor gets wounded and left everything to Gandalf and Imrahil. That’s a really bad look in the face of Aragorn de facto saving the day. If he still does the whole “try to burn Faramir alive” thing too, even if he survives I don’t see him holding onto power given he’s obviously insane/in the thrall of Sauron, Aragorn or not. Would have been a far more awkward political situation of course. As for the mead discussion, I know Beorn is called out specifically for all the bees he raises, doesn’t he serve mead in the Hobbit? If it’s called out as such then Bilbo obviously knows what mead is, which suggests it exists in the Shire.
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Sep 12, 2018 17:32
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MadDogMike posted:As for the mead discussion, I know Beorn is called out specifically for all the bees he raises, doesn’t he serve mead in the Hobbit? If it’s called out as such then Bilbo obviously knows what mead is, which suggests it exists in the Shire. I just looked, Beorn explicitly served mead: quote:They sat long at the table with their wooden drinking-bowls filled with mead. quote:At last Gandalf pushed away his plate and jug – he had eaten two whole loaves (with masses of butter and honey and clotted cream) and drunk at least a quart of mead Can we be 100% sure Bilbo recognized the mead for what it is? The narrator of The Hobbit is basically a modern Englishman, talking about trains and other things Bilbo wouldn't have known, but I didn't see anything like "Bilbo asked what the hell this stuff they were drinking was"; no explicit sign that Bilbo wasn't familiar with mead already.
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Sep 12, 2018 18:07
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Gandalf’s a champ. Hope I can ball that hard when I’m that old.
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Sep 12, 2018 18:10
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skasion posted:Gandalf’s a champ. Hope I can ball that hard when I’m that old. Well he's got Narya which helps him bear burdens and cures weariness. So I bet that Ring helps him drink more and prevents hangovers better too. You know the Elves would want something that helps them drink more.
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Sep 12, 2018 18:39
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Once every generation Arwen Undomiel would return to Rivendell to seduce the resident Dunedain "lost heir of Isildur", and secure the allegiance of a potential pocket king they could unleash when need arose. Aragorn was simply the lucky one in that Sauron rose during his lifetime, and the full plan could be enacted.
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Sep 12, 2018 18:53
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And of course it didn't pay off until Elrond was just about ready to leave middle-earth, what a waste of effort
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Sep 12, 2018 18:54
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Ginette Reno posted:I don't know simply because Aragorn is really popular in the aftermath of the siege. He goes around healing people, and his arrival basically saves the day in the war as well. The people pretty much immediately seem to love him. Denethor would have exposed Aragorn's healing for what it was: a publicity stunt. Gandalf made sure people saw Aragorn healing people (fulfilling a prophecy about Kings that Gandalf himself invented centuries earlier), while later on Elladan and Elrohir sneak into the city and do the exact same stuff out of the public eye. It was just basic Elven medical knowledge cleverly disguised as Divine Right.
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Sep 12, 2018 18:59
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cheetah7071 posted:And of course it didn't pay off until Elrond was just about ready to leave middle-earth, what a waste of effort He does it for his kids, who all stay afaik. Sets them all up with some nice properties.
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Sep 12, 2018 19:00
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sassassin posted:He does it for his kids, who all stay afaik. Sets them all up with some nice properties. Do his sons stay? I'm not sure that there is any indication one way or the other, but they are definitely of high-elven descent, so I just assumed they went.
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Sep 12, 2018 19:58
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sweet geek swag posted:Do his sons stay? I'm not sure that there is any indication one way or the other, but they are definitely of high-elven descent, so I just assumed they went. Elladan and Elrohir don't leave with Elrond at the end of lotr. Whether or not they leave later is uncertain. As half-elven they'd have the power to make the same choice Arwen/Elrond did aka they get to pick whether they want to be mortal or elven. It's possible they left later on, but Tolkien never said.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:05
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Ginette Reno posted:Elladan and Elrohir don't leave with Elrond at the end of lotr. Whether or not they leave later is uncertain. As half-elven they'd have the power to make the same choice Arwen/Elrond did aka they get to pick whether they want to be mortal or elven. It's said somewhere or other that Elrond's children had until Elrond left Middle Earth to make up their minds. If they did indeed stay behind (instead of leaving before Elrond, since they clearly didn't leave with him) then they became Men.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:06
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cheetah7071 posted:It's said somewhere or other that Elrond's children had until Elrond left Middle Earth to make up their minds. If they did indeed stay behind (instead of leaving before Elrond, since they clearly didn't leave with him) then they became Men. They might still be allowed to leave even if they became mortal. Sam was allowed to (though ringbearer, so I guess he's not an exception), and iirc doesn't Gimli leave with Legolas too eventually? It's been a minute since I read the appendixes so I can't remember.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:13
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Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam are explained away as ring-bearers being given special dispensation. I dunno why Gimli was allowed to go west but yeah he opens the window for other non-ringbearers. In-universe, I'd tend to view the claim that Gimli went west with some skepticism, given that LotR is framed as a translation of the red book of westmarch and we aren't given a source for the claim--it's easier to dismiss it as unsubstantiated folklore than figure out a reason it was allowed.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:17
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The Tale of Years presents Legolas sailing away as a fact, and Gimli sailing away with him as an “it is said that”. In the case of the children of Elrond it seems a bit different though, since the question is not merely of a choice whether to go overseas and die in Tol Eressea like Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam did, but a bigger choice of whether to die at all or not. Tolkien never wrote anything directly bearing on which way Elladan and Elrohir chose that I know of. But they are conspicuously not mentioned among the people to whom Arwen says goodbye when she leaves for Lothlórien to die — unlike her children.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:26
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cheetah7071 posted:Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam are explained away as ring-bearers being given special dispensation. I dunno why Gimli was allowed to go west but yeah he opens the window for other non-ringbearers. Well there's always the Galadriel explanation. Gimli loved her, and she was probably touched by that, and might have been able to get him a spot in the cool kid's club.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:27
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My suspicion is that the clause about Elrond's children having to choose when he did was . . . approximate, and Elladan and Elrohir sailed off independently like a year or two later.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:27
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cheetah7071 posted:Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam are explained away as ring-bearers being given special dispensation. I dunno why Gimli was allowed to go west but yeah he opens the window for other non-ringbearers. Gimli is a dwarf, not a man. At least some of the versions of the Sil indicate that Dwarves have their own wing of the Halls of Mandos, and Human souls don't seem to go to Mandos at all, so that would at least seem to indicate that dwarves going West isn't that outrageous of an idea.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:32
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sweet geek swag posted:Gimli is a dwarf, not a man. At least some of the versions of the Sil indicate that Dwarves have their own wing of the Halls of Mandos, and Human souls don't seem to go to Mandos at all, so that would at least seem to indicate that dwarves going West isn't that outrageous of an idea. Men go to Mandos temporarily before meeting their final destiny--Luthien reunited with Beren there. The final statement on Dwarves iirc is that Elves don't know what happens to them when they die, but Dwarves believe their spirits are taken in by Aule.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:34
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I'm like 90% sure that Tolkien wrote about Celeborn coming across the mountains and settling in Rivendell with Elrond's sons after Lothlorien faded. I thought it was in the timetable in the appendices but apparently not. Imagine having to move in to your grandkids house, though. Shameful stuff.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:01
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"But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond."
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Sep 12, 2018 21:05
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sassassin posted:"But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond." Okay then, that makes sense.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:10
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Celeborn? More like lowborn
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Sep 12, 2018 21:12
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Turns out ruling two forests is pretty difficult without a racially superior Queen with a magic ring backing you up, so he decides to put his feet up in front of a fire instead.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:22
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Celeborn is kind of an odd character because Galadriel is the true power of Lothlorien with her ring. But Celeborn is a really old dude with a lot of wisdom and power of his own, and yet he's kinda second (third?) fiddle of Elves in Middle Earth in the third age behind Galadriel/Elrond. Maybe even fourth when you consider Glorfindel was allowed to be reborn by Mandos and was (possibly?) imbued with even stronger powers after that.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:24
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Celeborn is near the top rung of Sindarin Elves which makes him better than everyone who never lived in Beleriand but worse than every Noldor, as far as Tolkien's metaphysical power rankings go
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Sep 12, 2018 21:26
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When Tolkien wrote that elves have no beards, he clearly had forgotten about Galadriel and Celeborn
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Sep 12, 2018 21:26
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And Cirdanquote:As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said: ‘All is now ready.’
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Sep 12, 2018 21:27
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It's hard not to read the compliments Galadriel gives Celeborn (like telling the Fellowship that he's a great giver of gifts) as being really condescending and snarky. Look at the magical undying faerie realm I maintain through the power of- oh and my husband is ace at wrapping presents, a real pro with a bit of ribbon.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:35
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cheetah7071 posted:And Cirdan Wouldn't Cirdan have been the oldest elf in Middle Earth at the end of the third age? He left the great journey to seach for Thingol. It's possible he was among the first of the Elves to awaken.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:49
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I think it's explicitly said somewhere Cirdan was born in Cuivienen. He could plausibly be first-generation. He's really loving old for sure either way.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:50
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Still convinced that Gimli took Thranduil’s seat on the boat when Legolas left cause Thranduil wanted his son to be happy (and preferred to stay with his kingdom). Either way it’s sad as gently caress cause it’s not like Gimli is gonna live forever over there like Legolas will and someday he’ll just be alone with strangers at the tomb of his dead
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Sep 13, 2018 01:53
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Are Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli the only non-elves to set foot in Valinor? Except for Tuor, of course, but he was singularly special amongst men, being counted as an elf where it mattered. Especially compared to Tuor it’s weird. None of the LOTR cast seem to come particularly close. Even Frodo “failed” spiritually in his quest. They’re letting just about anyone into the West, nowadays e:spiritually not spirituality Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Sep 13, 2018 |
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Sep 13, 2018 03:13
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