|
Bad Seafood posted:Weaknesses can be good, but only when they're interesting, or when the player is permitted to overcome them in interesting ways. Couldn't you apply the same argument to humans not having low-light vision or darkvision? All your target has to do is stay in the shadows and you are at disadvantage, period, unless you have a magic item to give you darkvision. That's lame. Dr. Tough posted:I'd like some thoughts on this: arcane eye. I'm DMing and one of the players has a diviner PC and he uses arcane eye to literally scout out entire dungeons. This has happened twice and I'm finding it more than a bit annoying because it's time consuming and seemed absurdly powerful. Today I was rereading the spell's description and saw the following: "You create an invisible, magical eye ... that hovers in the air". Should I be having him make stealth checks for this thing? Invisibility according to the PHB basically just makes it so attacks against you are at disadvantage, your attacks are at advantage, and you can use the hide action whenever you want. Via Google it seems that most people seem to just assume that it's a "wizard scouts dungeon for free for an hour" which does seem correct according to the RAW? I'll second the "talk with your players" advice. But note that standing around for an hour concentrating on a spell isn't the safest thing to do outside a dungeon unless the denizens are all locked in their rooms. A wandering encounter or two is always a possibility. It's also fair to have the inhabitants prepared for the PCs because the feeling of being watched put them on edge. What you're most wrestling with, I would guess, is how some adventures are written to be very passive. If the PCs were being hunted down by foes, for example, Arcane Eye isn't that useful. So it's circumstances of the adventure that are maximizing its utility, in the same way that cold protection items are great when adventuring on a glacier but not so much on the Elemental Plane of Fire.
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 16:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 05:03 |
|
|
I would try to home rule that the eye is not "invisible" but instead has to make a stealth check against the passive perception of the most perceptive creature in any room it enters. That would let it be useful but give it a tense "press your luck" feel.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:25
|
|
|
Arcane Eye is a 4th level spell that lets you scout out things at a snails pace. It doesn't need any other penalties.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:29
|
|
|
30 feet every 6 seconds. I'd hate to have your snails.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:34
|
|
|
Can only see to a range of 30 feet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:37
|
|
|
"There is no limit to how far away from you the eye can move"
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:38
|
|
|
I don't really see what the snail's pace has to do with the issue as stated - it doesn't play out in real time. Do you unconditionally give the party willing to wait an hour a map of the dungeon and catalogue of inhabitants, or do you make some caveat?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:40
|
|
|
Imagined posted:"There is no limit to how far away from you the eye can move" It moves 30 feet and can only see to a range of 30 feet. It's good for scouting a room next door, but if you want to map out a dungeon/building you're going to have to cast it nearby and then be busy fiddling with it for a while. Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't really see what the snail's pace has to do with the issue as stated - it doesn't play out in real time. Do you unconditionally give the party willing to wait an hour a map of the dungeon and catalogue of inhabitants, or do you make some caveat? Basically. The DM's problem here is that he's actually setting aside half an hour of session time just having the Wizard flying his camera drone about in real-time, and that's bad for the same reason it's bad when sneaky Rogues decide to 'scout ahead'. Just hand over a rough map of the dungeon and a list of interesting things the wizard might've spotted in the hour they had their sensor out, assuming they didn't outright get interrupted. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Sep 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:41
|
|
|
It's invisible, can see in all directions at once, and can move as far away from you as you want without you moving an inch. If you're not actively in combat, how can it not map out everything in a 3.4 mile area (5 ft per second = 3.4 mph) with no drawbacks except a spell slot?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:45
|
|
|
Imagined posted:It's invisible, can see in all directions at once, and can move as far away from you as you want without you moving an inch. If you're not actively in combat, how can it not map out everything in a 3.4 mile area (5 ft per second = 3.4 mph) with no drawbacks except a spell slot? It can and it should.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 17:49
|
|
|
If you're using a typical dungeon setup then yeah, Arcane Eye is going to mess it up. I would fix it one of two ways: If you're using a pre-written dungeon where this is a serious problem for whatever reason, talk to the player (like an adult!) about why it's loving up the game and discuss modifications like making it visible but stealthy or changing the range or duration. They might be fine just not using it if you swap it in for another spell, like Clairvoyance, that does a similar thing with less disruption of the game. If you're designing the dungeon yourself, or if you're comfortable modifying an existing module, then my solution would be to just...let them look at it. Make encounters that have hidden elements that the eye can't see, or just encounters that are not modified usefully by foreknowledge. If there's a big brightly lit room full of ogres guarding a door, you can only do so much to mitigate the fact that you gotta fight a bunch of ogres. The eye is also only as good at noticing traps as the wizard is, so all that scouting might be for naught if the fighter triggers an alarm at the entrance and now all the monsters shift position and ready themselves for the party. You can also use enemies who can see invisible things, or anti-magic shells and such to detect and disrupt the eye. If it's a common tactic for your party, their enemies might become aware of that fact. Those enemies in the dungeon, for that matter, are not static. They might have scouts that find the party while the wizard is doing his Eye trick. They might even use the same spell to scope out the party! Sure the PCs know about the ogre room, but the ogre room might also know that they're coming. I have a bad habit of assuming that every game has to be a mystery full of secret knowledge that the GM has and the players don't, but when you start getting into heavy magic use you have to shift the playing field a little bit and really consider why a given thing needs to be a secret. The PCs still presumably need to encounter whatever it is, so you can always just say "Ok, there's a dragon in there. What are you going to do about it?"
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 18:05
|
|
|
There's always walls, doors, puzzles and so forth you can use to limit how much the eye can scout.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 18:08
|
|
|
Nehru the Damaja posted:There's always walls, doors, puzzles and so forth you can use to limit how much the eye can scout. TBH, my first thought WAS 'How is the eye opening doors?'
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 18:15
|
|
|
Bad Seafood posted:mechanics presumably designed to service adventures in multiple worlds with different rules.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 18:20
|
|
|
Nehru the Damaja posted:There's always walls, doors, puzzles and so forth you can use to limit how much the eye can scout. I have absolutely added doors to modules when running Adventurer’s League games with players that absolutely insist on using their invisible imp familiar to scout everything reachable before going in.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 18:25
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1039916789130395648?s=21
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 18:26
|
|
|
also that same question but a level 2, twice-per-short-rest power - a druid, wild-shaped into a spider is also pretty good at getting a feel for a dungeon layout and contents, and is also pretty good at crawling under doors at least that gives me room to get him in trouble, sometimes, but I'm not gonna make it fail every time to spite him
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 18:41
|
|
|
So I was flipping through the various monster races and why do hobgoblins make such good wizards
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 20:07
|
|
|
Con and Int bonuses, free training with two martial weapons and light armour, and Saving Face is a nice bonus to ensure your attacks hit/you pass concentration checks. Also thematically, a Hobgoblin Warmage makes total sense. Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Sep 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 20:16
|
|
|
Wasn't one of the big badass archmages of Mystaria a Hobgoblin? Or was he a Bugbear....
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 21:11
|
|
|
Well the final answer that my group is going to use (and this received no complaints) is if the caster moves the eye into an area with monsters they'll need to make a stealth roll at advantage against the monsters' passive perception. On failure it's pretty standard invisibility stuff: monsters know there is something in a certain square but not precisely what and can attack at disadvantage, wizard can attempt the hide action when his turn comes back up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 21:21
|
|
|
Nonstandard races are the best races, kobold PCs all day err day.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 21:22
|
|
|
Blooming Brilliant posted:Con and Int bonuses, free training with two martial weapons and light armour, and Saving Face is a nice bonus to ensure your attacks hit/you pass concentration checks. Volo's guide to monsters had an entry on Hobgoblin's and their views to magic. Edit: I am not great at typing out my thoughts. Here is the entry instead, as the Devastator is a cool enemy. Volo's guide to Monsters posted:In hobgoblin society, the Academy of Devastation identifies hobgoblins with a talent for magic and puts them through a grueling training regimen that endows them with the ability to call down fireballs and other destructive magic on the host’s behalf. A hobgoblin devastator on the battlefield is simultaneously a boon to all its allies and a threat to every foe around it.  MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Sep 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 21:31
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Volo's guide to monsters had an entry on Hobgoblin's and their views to magic. This is beautiful.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 21:38
|
|
|
Dr. Tough posted:Well the final answer that my group is going to use (and this received no complaints) is if the caster moves the eye into an area with monsters they'll need to make a stealth roll at advantage against the monsters' passive perception. On failure it's pretty standard invisibility stuff: monsters know there is something in a certain square but not precisely what and can attack at disadvantage, wizard can attempt the hide action when his turn comes back up. If the problem is that the Wizard is eating up session time on a solo adventure while flying around their magical invisible camera drone, why is your solution to make said solo adventure even more involved and time consuming? Conspiratiorist posted:Basically. The DM's problem here is that he's actually setting aside half an hour of session time just having the Wizard flying his camera drone about in real-time, and that's bad for the same reason it's bad when sneaky Rogues decide to 'scout ahead'.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 22:03
|
|
|
Tremek posted:
I do agree that racist religious fundamentalists probably don't belong in a heroic party.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 22:16
|
|
|
Tendales posted:I do agree that racist religious fundamentalists probably don't belong in a heroic party. But that's every Paladin and most Clerics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 22:22
|
|
|
Clearly you haven't played 5e and should be ignored. Paladins can get by with any belief that excuses racism if they're evil, not just church. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 22:41
|
|
|
Tremek posted:On the subject of drow: And you're in favour of this?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 22:48
|
|
|
Tremek posted:On the subject of drow: this isn't a post that should include accusing other people of autistic screeching
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 22:53
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:If the problem is that the Wizard is eating up session time on a solo adventure while flying around their magical invisible camera drone, why is your solution to make said solo adventure even more involved and time consuming?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:05
|
|
|
Splicer posted:...I'll bite. Are you actually saying here that Drow are unfun to play on purpose? That the designers went "Well, we don't want people playing Drow, but they'll whine if they can't so we will, on purpose, make playing Drow suck poo poo for the player out of spite"? I'll bite in turn: has it not occurred to you that yes, this is a (possible) real reason drow suck mechanically? It may come as a shock but game designers try to discourage what they don't like or isn't beneficial to their game/IP. To reference an earlier edition:  WOTC wants to make money from D&D. Building the brand back up from its 4e nadir has taken a lot of work, but all else being equal, letting 12 year old murderhobos sit at an AL table replaying every evil (drow included) trope doesn't help the brand. Do what you want at your home table of course, but it's logically consistent that the designers aren't going to have a sudden change of heart just to allow you guys all to in-canon play and probably gently caress up a lot of other peoples' good times as cringy no-really-I'm-not-evil trainwrecks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:08
|
|
|
I'm sorry but building it back up from its most profitable time? What? The only reason 5e might be more profitable is because they aren't spending money on actually making any product, and they lucked out on the streaming boom brought about by groups like Critical Roll. Some people seem to have this weird misconception that 4e was a "failure" because it was unprofitable or unpopular. No 4e "failed" because any game that didn't get height of World of Warcraft numbers would have failed the insane goals that were set for 4e. Also did you miss the part where they asked if you were in favor of making races/classes suck to discourage players from playing them. Because if that is indeed what the developers did then that is straight up terrible and should be punished.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:19
|
|
|
You see fighters aren't boring, it's just when any person can pick up a sword is it really special or noteworthy to use one well?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:25
|
|
|
Tremek posted:I'll bite in turn: has it not occurred to you that yes, this is a (possible) real reason drow suck mechanically? It may come as a shock but game designers try to discourage what they don't like or isn't beneficial to their game/IP. Then shouldn't the designers just say that and disallow it instead of being passive aggressive?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:31
|
|
|
Ryuujin posted:I'm sorry but building it back up from its most profitable time? What? The only reason 5e might be more profitable is because they aren't spending money on actually making any product, and they lucked out on the streaming boom brought about by groups like Critical Roll. Drizzt doesn't have problems out in the sun, therefore, 4th edition garbage. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:43
|
|
|
Tremek posted:To reference an earlier edition: My understanding is the concept of good/evil in earlier editions had concrete and tangible repercussions, but that only really applies to celestials and fiends in 5e. You might find a bunch of kids playing as not-Drizzt annoying and cringeworthy but it's not defiling the sanctity of the canon or the Brand or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:45
|
|
|
Ryuujin posted:In defense of 4e, I’m not locked in on what that word salad was trying to communicate but I’m still confident it doesn’t matter as for whatever slights Mearls/Crawford/Perkins have trespassed against this august body it’s clearly working out for WOTC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:49
|
|
|
gandhichan posted:My understanding is the concept of good/evil in earlier editions had concrete and tangible repercussions, but that only really applies to celestials and fiends in 5e. You might find a bunch of kids playing as not-Drizzt annoying and cringeworthy but it's not defiling the sanctity of the canon or the Brand or whatever. Elysiume fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Sep 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 05:03 |
|
|
Tremek posted:I'll bite in turn: has it not occurred to you that yes, this is a (possible) real reason drow suck mechanically? It may come as a shock but game designers try to discourage what they don't like or isn't beneficial to their game/IP. Why would they want to try to discourage something they decided to include? Alternately, why would they include something that they would then need to discourage? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Sep 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2018 23:53
|
|
