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Didn't Herbert have a gay son (not Brian, he's just a failson)
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Sep 12, 2018 22:48
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Bruce herbert. He had a bad relationship with his dad but im not sure it was his sexuality so much as the fact frank was just a really bad father all around apparently.
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Sep 12, 2018 22:51
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kids dont like the gom jabbar apparently
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Sep 12, 2018 23:24
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i would totally have passed the test because logically i would know the pain wasn't real  this is a thing i've heard dune fans say. i do like the first 3 books a lot though. 2 > 1 > 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else is crazy and boring at the same time edit: parts of Dune Messiah read like they were stealth co-authored by William S Burroughs, it's great
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Sep 12, 2018 23:50
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:On one hand, Frank Herbert was a homophobic rear end in a top hat. There is nothing really to suggest this. Herbert wrote about sexual politics among other things in fantasy while being a part of a very straight laced culture that underwent huge changes during just a few decades. Evidence suggests that his ideas and temperament aged quite well over the years. He was, at worst, indifferent to homosexuality while being curious about its hypothetical biological and cultural manifestations within a proposed future culture that is obsessed with breeding programs, breeding programs which he paints somewhat unsparingly at times. God Emperor was written at the height of the sexual revolution, and from my perspective Herbert's rather horny musings are quite forward thinking for the time and fairly interesting even now, but they were also informed by his wife being declared a terminal medical case for nearly the last decade of his life. It's fairly obvious that Herbert was self-medicating through writing during this period. Heinlein, another outsider 'idea' writer who was far less skilled at characterization than even Herbert, was exploring themes of homosexuality and bisexuality, incest, pedophilia, and sexual nonconformity in general, ect in his work at the same time (Time Enough For Love and many other even earlier works), and a lot of that stuff has aged far worse than anything Herbert ever put to page...though I still think TEFL is interesting enough as a provocation to stand on its own. It's apparent that Heinlein considered the taboo of incest to be religious rather than biologically informed, though I'm not sure those two can be separated entirely. Liquid Dinosaur posted:He’s not subtle about Harkonnen being extremely evil and extremely gay (with his slaveboys, etc) He's not subtle about The Baron being a huge pedophile, maniacal inbred pervert, or carnivalesque and amoral sado-masochist while shaping his particular court according to those predilections, but I don't think he paints all Hark in some diseased homophobic light. If I'm wrong feel free to provide examples. Liquid Dinosaur posted:I figure if Frank wanted us to be disgusted that Leto IIs evil regime supported This here demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the plot of God Emperor of Dune, and perhaps even the prior trilogy. BeanpolePeckerwood fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Sep 13, 2018 |
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Sep 13, 2018 00:42
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QUEEEEERS!
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:To be fair, Herbert was writing some of this stuff during the sexual revolution and the content of it was probably fairly novel for the sci-fi/fantasy genre at the time. He seemed at least open to analyzing some of his former preconceptions about sexual politics and gender dynamics and relating them to ideas about nature, ecology, mysticism, industrialism, etc which is more than you can say for a lot of his peers. That is certainly true. I guess I've been piling on the lesser sequels, but maybe it's because his vision was so grand in scope, that it was a bit of a let down to see him chase some weird fetishy digression to no clear end. It's like if Tolkien suddenly threw in 12 pages of Tom Bombadil's water sports fantasies. Maybe the great fantasy authors excluded sexuality because it changes the focus so much from the grand in scope to the unsettlingly personal. I mean, there's lots of cartoony ravishing going on in scifi, but that's about it.
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Sep 13, 2018 00:51
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Oyak posted:That is certainly true. I guess I've been piling on the lesser sequels, but maybe it's because his vision was so grand in scope, that it was a bit of a let down to see him chase some weird fetishy digression to no clear end. It's like if Tolkien suddenly threw in 12 pages of Tom Bombadil's water sports fantasies. As much as Herbert was able to flesh out characters, his best work in this vein is confined to the first 2 books. Period. The first two books are quite emotional, sweeping, and romantic..and are rich with ideas but are equally concerned with the characters emotional reactions to events. Beyond those two it's obvious that he was writing as a career and using the template in a very impersonal way in order to explore ideas and cultural preconceptions, in 3-6. It doesn't bother me and can be great at times, but if you're coming for characterization then stick to Dune and Dune Messiah. I'd say most early fantasy authors were completely obsessed with sexuality but were living in such a conformist culture that they couldn't risk actually expressing interest in said ideas. Sturgeon always managed to best those restrictions with the sheer beauty of his colloquial writing style (More Than Human) but many more blunt fantasy authors like Bester pretty much allowed that confinement and sexual frustration to manifest in misogynistic ways. The Stars My Destination is still absolutely incredible though.
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Sep 13, 2018 01:04
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:This here demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the plot of God Emperor of Dune, and perhaps even the prior trilogy. 
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Sep 13, 2018 01:13
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Oyak posted:It's like if Tolkien suddenly threw in 12 pages of Tom Bombadil's water sports fantasies. It's closer to thirty pages, actually.
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Sep 13, 2018 01:13
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precision posted:lmao i forgot that God Emperor is the book that gave us this classic Sci-Fi line "All soldiers are homosexuals at heart." where is the lie?
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Sep 13, 2018 01:18
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:There is nothing really to suggest this. Herbert wrote about sexual politics among other things in fantasy while being a part of a very straight laced culture that underwent huge changes during just a few decades. Evidence suggests that his ideas and temperament aged quite well over the years. He was, at worst, indifferent to homosexuality while being curious about its hypothetical biological and cultural manifestations within a proposed future culture that is obsessed with breeding programs, breeding programs which he paints somewhat unsparingly at times. God Emperor was written at the height of the sexual revolution, and from my perspective Herbert's rather horny musings are quite forward thinking for the time and fairly interesting even now, but they were also informed by his wife being declared a terminal medical case for nearly the last decade of his life. It's fairly obvious that Herbert was self-medicating through writing during this period. This post hits the nail on the head. It's a shame that some readers do not quite know how to differentiate between the author and his characters. They come from the author, but the voices argue. They aren't the sum and there's plenty of characters who need to be portrayed as evil or alien to help drive the plot. He commonly points this out by having characters you like do things that are disagreeable. Once again, people bring up Duncan as a homophobe, ergo proving Herbert's homophobia but if they read the next little bit where Duncan says gayness should be "stamped out" or whatever, Leto basically just 
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Sep 13, 2018 03:28
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phasmid posted:It's a shame that some readers do not quite know how to differentiate between the author and his characters. internet2018.txt
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Sep 13, 2018 04:59
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Yeah, Duncan serves as an occasional source of primitive but useful genes in the breeding program, but mostly serves just as a measuring stick to compare to the latest breeding program successes. One of the finest warriors of his time, equivalent to a Saurdakar - now backwards, primitive, and weak compared to Leto II's butler.
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Sep 13, 2018 05:23
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duncan was the real hero in the end
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Sep 13, 2018 05:48
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He's basically a caveman they keep around because he's funny and the girls like him.
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Sep 13, 2018 05:55
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but really, does duncan even fac? Yes. the answer is ye.s
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Sep 13, 2018 06:47
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It's sad in Dune III when Duncan goes on Alia's suicide mission, knowing that she intends him to die. And he just tells her goodbye. In V/VI you find out how messed up Duncan's childhood was and the BG exploit him to the fullest extent just because he's a wild card.
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Sep 13, 2018 07:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:He's basically a caveman they keep around because he's funny and the girls like him. Unfrozen caveman warrior.
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Sep 13, 2018 12:28
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:As much as Herbert was able to flesh out characters, his best work in this vein is confined to the first 2 books. Period. The first two books are quite emotional, sweeping, and romantic..and are rich with ideas but are equally concerned with the characters emotional reactions to events. holy poo poo more than human had a piece of it in weird tales, right? I looked it up and saw the phrase homo gestalt and it came flooding back. man I forgot about that poo poo my was blown basically my mind was in a process of getting continually blown by various fiction ideas for a substantial part of my younger life. Sometimes i suspect this has something to do with the seeming lack of dick getting blown during that timeframe idunno
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Sep 13, 2018 12:44
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SniperWoreConverse posted:holy poo poo more than human had a piece of it in weird tales, right? I looked it up and saw the phrase homo gestalt and it came flooding back. man I forgot about that poo poo my was blown Yes. More Than Human is so beautifully written that you almost forget what genre it's in. I'd say it's firmly in the top 3 greatest single sci-fi/fantasy books ever written, if not #1. SniperWoreConverse posted:Sometimes i suspect this has something to do with the seeming lack of dick getting blown during that timeframe idunno I was def getting blown around the time I read it and can confirm that it is still amazing.
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Sep 13, 2018 20:38
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As a guy who loves Three Hearts and Three Lions, how does Paul Anderson's sci-fi novels hold up? Particularly The High Crusade? Anachronisms are my favourite sci-fi tropes. I asked in here because people seem to have an excellent taste in books, and we seem to be on a roll.
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Sep 13, 2018 21:31
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I'm back to Heretics of Dune and the coy attitude towards the contents of the Atriedes manifesto has me trying to remember what it was about and why the Tleilaxu are so sure it means their ascendancy is imminent.
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Sep 13, 2018 21:46
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Edison was a dick posted:I'm back to Heretics of Dune and the coy attitude towards the contents of the Atriedes manifesto has me trying to remember what it was about and why the Tleilaxu are so sure it means their ascendancy is imminent. It's bait and they're the fish.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:52
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tleilaxu get played so hard so often its legit depressing also completely forgot about the child rape part in chapterhouse. they literally use the anime defense.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:59
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:tleilaxu get played so hard so often its legit depressing
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Sep 14, 2018 04:32
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Tleilaxu were great in Emperor: Battle for Dune, until you discovered the magnificent terror of Ixian projected Devastators.
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Sep 14, 2018 09:08
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THE BAR posted:Tleilaxu were great in Emperor: Battle for Dune, until you discovered the magnificent terror of Ixian projected Devastators. IX ORDERS AGREED ORDERS AGREED ORDERS AGREED IX ORDERS AGREED IX IX IX IX IX ORDERS AGREED
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Sep 14, 2018 09:14
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:tleilaxu get played so hard so often its legit depressing Yeah but in their defense it is true. The really horrible part of child sexual abuse is the after effects and in this case it is a 200+ yo man who has to deal with it, not a child.
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Sep 14, 2018 09:15
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THE BAR posted:As a guy who loves Three Hearts and Three Lions, how does Paul Anderson's sci-fi novels hold up? Particularly The High Crusade? Anachronisms are my favourite sci-fi tropes. I've not read a lot of Anderson's stuff, but The High Crusade is awesome. The movie, not so much.
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Sep 14, 2018 20:20
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The Bloop posted:hyperlesbianism
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Sep 15, 2018 03:48
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you called?
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Sep 15, 2018 04:12
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:tleilaxu get played so hard so often its legit depressing Really they brought it on themselves. They're creepy, they're gross, and they're weird. And they're actively choosing to be that way.
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Sep 15, 2018 04:14
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e: nevermind, thought i was in the dune thread, not one where we post pornhub search strings
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Sep 15, 2018 04:29
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Arrhythmia posted:e: nevermind, thought i was in the dune thread, not one where we post pornhub search strings Lol if you aren't searching pornhub for "fish speakers" and "huge worm" daily
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Sep 15, 2018 17:05
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The Bloop posted:Lol if you aren't searching pornhub for "fish speakers" and "huge worm" daily We have wormsign
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Sep 15, 2018 17:15
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Really they brought it on themselves. They're creepy, they're gross, and they're weird. And they're actively choosing to be that way. definitely
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Sep 15, 2018 18:52
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I can't figure out if the Tleilaxu are a racist caricature. i got that feeling, but the guy who does the ebooks portrays tleilaxu in Hereteics with a loving really bad, kinda racist Asian accent, and that happens to make it impossible to not see it that way.
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Sep 15, 2018 19:43
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I've always pictured them as short vampires since the description in Heretics.
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Sep 15, 2018 21:21
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Doesn't Heretics also show Odrade trick them into revealing that they believe some kind of weird Zensufi islamobuddhism or did I make that up?
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Sep 16, 2018 02:04
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Murray Mantoinette posted:Doesn't Heretics also show Odrade trick them into revealing that they believe some kind of weird Zensufi islamobuddhism or did I make that up? She tricked Scytale into thinking the BG believed it, too.
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Sep 16, 2018 02:12
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