Warhammer 40,000: 8th Time's the Charm

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Warhammer 40,000: 8th Time's the Charm

Mulva: Sep 13, 2011; It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:

Agreed. Simple in execution, easy to understand, and helps address the biggest issue with soup armies.

Makes it completely impossible to take something like the new Rogue Trader detachments and use them as they are intended. They have neat but not overpowered stratagems that really buff them up to a cool add on. Anything that stops them from making cool little things like this to add to the game is, by nature, a terrible decision.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 08:59

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:12

JBP: Feb 16, 2017; You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.

Thanqol posted:

Yeah, they've somehow made what should be the most metal faction the least metal.

Wolves are metal. Everything dumb is hosted by metal.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 09:50

JBP: Feb 16, 2017; You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.

I like it how people complain that Logan riding on the hoverboard version of a longship's prow being pulled by wolves is dumb when it's the most dumb poo poo metal thing ever and the art for it owns. He's like a Viking/dwarf king.

E: lord, you know we can simply give the platform thrusters there is no need to...

HOOK UP THE WOLFING loving WOLVES, IRONWOLF.

JBP fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Sep 13, 2018

# ? Sep 13, 2018 09:52

Mango Polo: Aug 4, 2007

Hot take: I hope GW will take a big, fat steaming poo poo on all these dumb CP mechanics and make a lot of (bad) players cry.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:27

Shockeh: Feb 24, 2009; Now be a dear and
fuck the fuck off.

tl;dr Issue is complex, we don't want to discourage GW doing batshit fun stuff like the minor Factions (I.E Rogue Traders, etc.) but also we need to address 'Batteries' and 'Soups' being a thing.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:34

ijyt: Apr 10, 2012

Mango Polo posted:

Hot take: I hope GW will take a big, fat steaming poo poo on all these dumb CP mechanics and make a lot of (bad) players cry.

WAAC need not apply.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:40

Living Image: Apr 24, 2010; HORSE'S ASS

Here, I wrote how to fix this stuff because I'm tired of going around in circles on this: http://www.goonhammer.com/subdomains/forums/what-is-to-be-done-state-of-the-game-september-2018/

Inb4 'nice meltdown'

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:41

JBP: Feb 16, 2017; You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.

I hope they just warlord up your strategems since it kind of makes sense that the field commander is going to be calling the big plays.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:52

DotyManX: Aug 9, 2004; Yeah I drive a minivan, big deal, wanna fight about it?

Thanqol posted:

Yeah, they've somehow made what should be the most metal faction the least metal.

I sigh howl-fully as I draw my wolf-tana...

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:22

Jack B Nimble: Dec 25, 2007; Soiled Meat

Corrode posted:

Here, I wrote how to fix this stuff because I'm tired of going around in circles on this: http://www.goonhammer.com/subdomains/forums/what-is-to-be-done-state-of-the-game-september-2018/

Inb4 'nice meltdown'

Good write up; is there any concern that GW will pay more attention to what happened at a London tournament than a DC tournament?

# ? Sep 13, 2018 12:08

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Mulva posted:

Makes it completely impossible to take something like the new Rogue Trader detachments and use them as they are intended. They have neat but not overpowered stratagems that really buff them up to a cool add on. Anything that stops them from making cool little things like this to add to the game is, by nature, a terrible decision.

The RT faction is what spurned this discussion. Assuming the picture wasn't bullshit they come with their own CP, that can only be spent on their stratagems. If the army is battle forged then they get 3 CP.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 12:08

Mulva: Sep 13, 2011; It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

The RT faction is what spurned this discussion. Assuming the picture wasn't bullshit they come with their own CP, that can only be spent on their stratagems. If the army is battle forged then they get 3 CP.

What I was responding to was a suggestion that "Only your Warlord faction can use stratagems". Which means you can't take a cute little detachment as a side issue.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 12:11

Living Image: Apr 24, 2010; HORSE'S ASS

Jack B Nimble posted:

Good write up; is there any concern that GW will pay more attention to what happened at a London tournament than a DC tournament?

The other way around imo. They seem very enamoured with the big US events, while paying much less attention to UK ones. LGT really pissed them off anyway since they came up prepared for 'Europe's answer to LVO' and were expected to stream tables of discarded packing foam.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 12:15

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Mulva posted:

Remove CP sharing, and how many CP do you think the average mixed group is going to have for the various armies? Like lets say someone was playing in a game right now where the 'normal' IG/IK/BA thing went down, how many CP do you see the Knight having to use? Like it's not none, but between rerolls and the poo poo you are going to want to run any turn you are basically going to be limited from turn 1. Do you want relics, are you used to getting cheeky with a few warlord traits, did you constantly rotate shields with no regard for tomorrow? Well you can't do that now. You have to seriously think what you are spending them on, because you paid a lot of points to have no very many. You have to make them count.

e: And if someone runs something like....I don't know, Guard/AdMech where you can reasonably have a bunch of both sides.....who cares, you have a lot of Guard and AdMech. You'll need those points, more power to you.

I think the answer will be "whatever quantity GW believes is appropriate for each force at whatever points level they're being played at". Knights are a good example. Unless you can field a super heavy detachment, you get 3 CP for being Battleforged. So at 500 points you get 3CP. At 1000 points you can have 6CP with a Super Heavy detachment with one Titanic unit. That's it. The cheapest Questoris class available is too expensive to field 3 in 1000 points, so it's not until you reach 1500 CP that you can get more. At that point you could get a total of 11 CP by fielding three Titanic units. In contrast with CP sharing a simple battalion of guard can nearly double the amount of CP a 1000 point Knight army can play with for the cost of a single Armiger.

If CP sharing is prohibited then GW can actually balance stratagems around how much CP is available for each faction. I think that's a good thing.

Mulva posted:

What I was responding to was a suggestion that "Only your Warlord faction can use stratagems". Which means you can't take a cute little detachment as a side issue.

Yeah that's true, which is why I don't think they'll do it. Assuming the minidex picture is correct it constrains the list of available solutions to those that accommodate that particular change.

Beer4TheBeerGod fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Sep 13, 2018

# ? Sep 13, 2018 12:37

Maneck: Sep 11, 2011

Mulva posted:

What I was responding to was a suggestion that "Only your Warlord faction can use stratagems". Which means you can't take a cute little detachment as a side issue.

I preferred the "own Warlord" idea. I still like it, but I understand why it won't work if mini-factions are going to be a thing (and they look nifty right now). Beer's point about how the premises underlying the Knight codex have been undermined is bang on. The "own Warlord" idea doesn't fix that an IG battalion starts Knights off with a pool of CP that they probably were not meant to have and which undermines the ability to properly balance them.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 13:59

Bob Wins: Oct 25, 2010

moths posted:

Which faction is the aquila part of? Green chip.

If it's easier, think of CP as MtG mana. You've got five different colors (and uncolored), and six year olds can get it.

This is exactly the comparison I was going to make.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 14:18

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

If CP sharing is prohibited then GW can actually balance stratagems around how much CP is available for each faction. I think that's a good thing.

The other side of this coin is that it also allows them to self- balance strategems without having to account for batteries / generators / whatever.

Ultimately the problem is that CP represents a currency that isn't standardized between factions. Astra Militarum CP is worth less than Knight CP - so it really doesn't hurt the overall game if Guard is swimming in replenishing CP. Guard can't do anything too game breaking with it, and part of their flavor is playing something situational at the right moment to nudge things in their favor.

There's no problems with making 30,000 lira in Turkey if you spend it in Turkey. The problem is when you're allowed to spend that 1:1 for GBP or USD. So you can either contain CP to their faction, establish exchange rates, or ruin half the factions economies by trying to standardize their "dollars."

The least-invasive fix that's most likely to work is confinement.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 14:30

JBP: Feb 16, 2017; You've got to know, to understand,
Baby, take me by my hand,
I'll lead you to the promised land.

moths posted:

There's no problems with making 30,000 lira in Turkey if you spend it in Turkey. The problem is when you're allowed to spend that 1:1 for GBP or USD. So you can either contain CP to their faction, establish exchange rates, or ruin half the factions economies by trying to standardize their "dollars."

Man, have I got bad news about GW and their understanding of exchange rates.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 14:34

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Seriously, they absolutely shouldn't go that route if only for that reason.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 14:35

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

moths posted:

The other side of this coin is that it also allows them to self- balance strategems without having to account for batteries / generators / whatever.

Ultimately the problem is that CP represents a currency that isn't standardized between factions. Astra Militarum CP is worth less than Knight CP - so it really doesn't hurt the overall game if Guard is swimming in replenishing CP. Guard can't do anything too game breaking with it, and part of their flavor is playing something situational at the right moment to nudge things in their favor.

There's no problems with making 30,000 lira in Turkey if you spend it in Turkey. The problem is when you're allowed to spend that 1:1 for GBP or USD. So you can either contain CP to their faction, establish exchange rates, or ruin half the factions economies by trying to standardize their "dollars."

The least-invasive fix that's most likely to work is confinement.

Exactly. Stratagems are a really cool and powerful way to make the game more interesting and complex. They can also easily become overpowered when the primary means of regulating them (the command point pool) is expanded beyond what an army could normally obtain. So long as CP can be shared between forces you cannot balance stratagems for both allied and mono-faction play.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 14:42

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

JBP posted:

Man, have I got bad news about GW and their understanding of exchange rates.

All stratagems now cost 20% more command points to play at NOVA than the LGT.

Australian players don't even bother. If you have to ask you can't afford it.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 14:44

Cessna: Feb 20, 2013; KHABAHBLOOOM

Killer_Bees! posted:

The two burning of prospero Horus Heresy books did a fantastic job of playing up the space Viking and rout themes, so much so it made me really want to start a space wolf army after hating on them for years.... then GW released the new Wolfen and even the forgeworld space wolves sculpts being nothing but horrible and it ruined them terminally forever

So, so true...

# ? Sep 13, 2018 15:59

MasterSlowPoke: Oct 9, 2005; Our courage will pull us through

there are few things more metal than Jorts

# ? Sep 13, 2018 17:38

For_Great_Justice: Apr 21, 2010; JUST CAN'T SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW MUCH I HATE GAMES WORKSHOP!

I'm one of those players that will forget what turn they're while playing. I sure don't want to keep stacks of anything in seperate piles on both sides if the field no less. I used to play MtG so I get to comparison to mana vs CP but in mtg both players can get a ton of mana just playing, certain factions are just hard capped unless they take a guard tax, doesn't really 100% mtg.

Cp regen is probably not good for the game due to soup. Neither one is inherently awful, they have good points alone, but together they make an awful combo.

Allies seem cool so maybe do away with regen. Strats can be game changing so I do feel like they should limited with starting cp. Doing the same strat every turn is less strategy an more a step in procedure. Not very exciting. I prefer strats as a bluff like "If I target this will he use the Night Lord -1 to hit or will he save it."

# ? Sep 13, 2018 17:41

Improbable Lobster: Jan 6, 2012; "From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.; Buglord

Corrode posted:

Here, I wrote how to fix this stuff because I'm tired of going around in circles on this: http://www.goonhammer.com/subdomains/forums/what-is-to-be-done-state-of-the-game-september-2018/

Inb4 'nice meltdown'

Bad meltdown, actually

# ? Sep 13, 2018 18:13

For_Great_Justice: Apr 21, 2010; JUST CAN'T SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT HOW MUCH I HATE GAMES WORKSHOP!

There are some valid points in there truth be told.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 18:31

Maneck: Sep 11, 2011

Assuming segregation is the fix for CP batteries, what are the other changes coming in CA 2018?:

Space Marine price cuts across the board;
Space Marine stratagem adjustments because they have so many bad ones considering their CP cost;
Necron price cuts (or outright reworks);
Guard go up in price slightly;
Chaos cultists go up in price slighly;
DE infantry go up in price slightly;
Rule of three a carve outs for oddball factions like Deathwing;
Rule of three carve ins for units that are basically the same but have different data sheets i.e. Deamon Princes;
Make mini-factions out of Fallen, assassins to restore them after February's keyword-pocalypse

# ? Sep 13, 2018 19:15

TheBigAristotle: Feb 8, 2007; I'm tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money.
I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok.; Grimey Drawer

Maneck posted:

Assuming segregation is the fix for CP batteries, what are the other changes coming in CA 2018?:

Space Marine price cuts across the board;

Space Marine stratagem adjustments because they have so many bad ones considering their CP cost;

Necron price cuts (or outright reworks);

Guard go up in price slightly;

Chaos cultists go up in price slighly;

DE infantry go up in price slightly;

Rule of three a carve outs for oddball factions like Deathwing;

Rule of three carve ins for units that are basically the same but have different data sheets i.e. Deamon Princes;

Make mini-factions out of Fallen, assassins to restore them after February's keyword-pocalypse

Please just make the Vindicator not poo poo

# ? Sep 13, 2018 19:28

MasterSlowPoke: Oct 9, 2005; Our courage will pull us through

CA's not going to have significant rules changes in it. It's going to largely be just the Sisters beta codex, some narrative play stuff, and points adjustments.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 19:28

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

There's also going to be a non-zero amount of Narrative only rules that nobody will ever use.

Ie: DIY landraiders.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 19:42

Eifert Posting: Apr 1, 2007; Most of the time he catches it every time.; Grimey Drawer

TheBigAristotle posted:

Please just make the Vindicator not poo poo

Yes

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:00

Wizard: Aug 3, 2014; Paul Blart: Mall Blart

TheBigAristotle posted:

Please just make the Vindicator not poo poo

Ive never used them before, what would you want to seem them do?

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:02

Booley: Apr 25, 2010; I CAN BARELY MAKE IT A WEEK WITHOUT ACTING LIKE AN ASSHOLE; Grimey Drawer

Wizard posted:

Ive never used them before, what would you want to seem them do?

Literally anything at all. They used to drop a terrifying pie plate that would delete anything under it. Now they wet fart at things.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:10

Safety Factor: Oct 31, 2009; Grimey Drawer

Wizard posted:

Ive never used them before, what would you want to seem them do?

Shoot a 5" blast template.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:11

Duct Tape: Sep 30, 2004; Huh?

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

I think the answer will be "whatever quantity GW believes is appropriate for each force at whatever points level they're being played at". Knights are a good example. Unless you can field a super heavy detachment, you get 3 CP for being Battleforged. So at 500 points you either get 3CP or 6CP if you field 3 Armigers. At 1000 points you can either have 6CP with a Super Heavy detachment with one Titanic unit, 9 CP if you field two SH detachments consisting entirely of Armigers. That's it. The cheapest Questoris class available is too expensive to field 3 in 1000 points, so it's not until you reach 1500 CP that you can get more. At that point you could get a total of 11 CP by fielding three Titanic units. In contrast with CP sharing a simple battalion of guard can nearly double the amount of CP a 1000 point Knight army can play with for the cost of a single Armiger.

If CP sharing is prohibited then GW can actually balance stratagems around how much CP is available for each faction. I think that's a good thing.

Yeah that's true, which is why I don't think they'll do it. Assuming the minidex picture is correct it constrains the list of available solutions to those that accommodate that particular change.

I thought SH detachments that consisted of nothing but Armigers generate 0 CP. From the errata:

The Imperial Knight FAQ posted:

The Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Superheavy Detachment is changed to �None� if it does not contain at least one Imperial Knights Titanic unit, and is changed to �+6 Command Points� if it contains at least three Imperial Knights Titanic units.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:12

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Duct Tape posted:

I thought SH detachments that consisted of nothing but Armigers generate 0 CP. From the errata:

You're right. Brain fart.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:14

Duct Tape: Sep 30, 2004; Huh?

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

You're right. Brain fart.

Easy to forget. And, that's an issue I would have with CP being locked to their generating armies. For Imperial Knights to generate any CP, you're looking at a minimum of 682 points for a Galant and two Warglaives.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:21

PierreTheMime: Dec 9, 2004; Hero of hormagaunts everywhere!; Buglord

I needs a much larger number of hits and then cap the number that can be applied to individual models and offer a secondary anti-tank shot with a big damage small shots profile similar to what it has now.

They haven�t been great in a long time but from 4th-7th if you put one down people would mentally go �well poo poo I have to stop that before it shoots me�. Now I don�t recall anyone fielding it it�s so standout bad.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:21

xtothez: Jan 4, 2004; College Slice

Maneck posted:

Assuming segregation is the fix for CP batteries, what are the other changes coming in CA 2018?:

Don't forget we're due the next big FAQ update this month. If they're going to fix CP batteries it'll be in that.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:29

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:12

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Duct Tape posted:

Easy to forget. And, that's an issue I would have with CP being locked to their generating armies. For Imperial Knights to generate any CP, you're looking at a minimum of 682 points for a Galant and two Warglaives.

I agree that having forces not get any CP is bad, so ideally every force would have a baseline amount (3CP for being Battle Forged). In other words each detachment effectively becomes their own independet army from a CP perspective. Given that the Rogue Trader minidex already does that it makes sense that such a rule might become more pervasive. In doing so you also ensure that each force is balanced both for mono-faction armies and allied play.

So long as CP can be shared you can't balance stratagems for both mono-faction and allied play.

xtothez posted:

Don't forget we're due the next big FAQ update this month. If they're going to fix CP batteries it'll be in that.

That's my assumption as well.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 20:36

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