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toasterwarrior posted:Hold up, Luminarks can shoot over most units, right? I like having Steam Tanks, but I kinda want to switch them out for Luminarks for that awesome character deleting capability while the General does the actual tanking, and maybe a Helblaster in front of the Luminark to shoot heavy infantry dead as they approach. Kinda. It's still pretty finnicky.
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Sep 12, 2018 17:36
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jokes posted:Kinda. It's still pretty finnicky. Dang, thanks for the confirmation. Guess I'll have to think about this more, like dropping Reiksguard for Demigryphs and plain Knights instead.
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Sep 12, 2018 17:50
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toasterwarrior posted:Dang, thanks for the confirmation. Guess I'll have to think about this more, like dropping Reiksguard for Demigryphs and plain Knights instead. Generally you can put a Luminark between two blocks of units and it can fire reliably, then just move your frontline forward to charge. I think on a 100% flat surface it can fire over most infantry or something, but there's rarely a map with 100% flatness.
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Sep 12, 2018 17:56
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toasterwarrior posted:Yeah, I like using the Tabletop Unit Cap mod because even with C&C you can doomstack with all the Greatswords, Demigryph Knights, and whatever in a single army. The mod forces me to actually think about my compositions coming from both the strategic level (building caps) and the meta-level (the Special and Rare limits per army) for every single army, so just because I have the infrastructure doesn't mean I can just faceroll my way to victory with Greatswords and Demigryphs out the rear end. this is legit fun and I love those mods
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Sep 12, 2018 18:42
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You always want it on at least a little bit of elevation to be sure, same with Warp Lightning Cannon. Because the other thing you need to be kind of wary of is the beam clipping the top of your models and damaging them as it streaks toward the enemy. In C&C Gelt gets a skill you can choose that knocks off 75% of the upkeep cost and increases capacity by 1, making it pretty much a no brainer to take one in his army as soon as you can.
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Sep 12, 2018 18:42
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Hah, ok, I've found the answer to my predicament of finding something to pair with a Helblaster that wouldn't block/die horribly to its shots. And the answer was right in my sights too, just wasn't thinking enough. Another wizard! Lore of Beasts is particularly good, I've found from testing: the crow spell now hits the enemy with a substantial physical res penalty for a minute, Amber Spear hits like a goddamn nuke (half health Vargulf on overcast), and its buff spells are much more potent. This'll be a good lore for my army setup, since I'm a great believer in Reiksguard being fantastic jacks-of-all-trade and their lack of AP damage can be mitigated by the Beast lore.
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Sep 12, 2018 19:54
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C&C doesn't play nice with tabletop unit caps, right?
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Sep 12, 2018 20:05
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Also gets a griffon mount later on which is pretty good for a run of the mill wizard. Didn't know Amber Spear was so powerful, but many of the bolt spells have gotten improved, and I really like them now because they're all actually useful. Overcast fireball is hilarious, I accidentally fried a unit of halberdiers by mis aiming and grossly underestimating just how many goddamn fireballs the bright wizard was going to chuck at them. Shem's Burning Gaze is neat also because it is spammable and does magic+fire damage; low cost and cooldown mean you can kind of stunlock big monsters with it. Many of the overcast spells are devastating, and worth the very high cost to cast, basically you often get the option of either being able to cast a few strong spells over the course of the battle, or one absolutely devastating one: Vortex spells: Most give you 3 randomly moving vortecies which can annihilate garrisons that are crowded behind gates (pretty much like getting multiball in pinball). Transmutation of Lead: Debuffs ALL the enemies on the map for a duration. Final Transmutation: Immobilizes 3 units for 90 seconds. Freeze their Lord then snipe it to death with your Luminark. Comet of Cassandra: Drops TWO comets in the area And so forth. If you look at the details, many of the damage over time spells completely ignore armor now, which actually increases their DPS vs a lot of targets.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:12
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Ravenfood posted:C&C doesn't play nice with tabletop unit caps, right? Nah, works totally fine, just makes things harder which I like. The C&C modder straight up said they pair quite nicely. The issue is just that, with the Special and Rare designations coming from the army books themselves, there can be some imbalance that's amplified by C&C's tweaks. For example, Longbeards are Core units, and Longbeards are insanely tough (and can be become even more tough) for a Core unit. Meanwhile, both Warp Lightning Cannons and Plagueclaw Catapults are Rare units, which really puts a crimp on how much firepower a Skaven army can bring to the field despite the fact that they absolutely need those big guns without some of their cooler Skryre units in the game for now. Panfilo posted:Also gets a griffon mount later on which is pretty good for a run of the mill wizard. Didn't know Amber Spear was so powerful, but many of the bolt spells have gotten improved, and I really like them now because they're all actually useful. Overcast fireball is hilarious, I accidentally fried a unit of halberdiers by mis aiming and grossly underestimating just how many goddamn fireballs the bright wizard was going to chuck at them. Shem's Burning Gaze is neat also because it is spammable and does magic+fire damage; low cost and cooldown mean you can kind of stunlock big monsters with it. Many of the overcast spells are devastating, and worth the very high cost to cast, basically you often get the option of either being able to cast a few strong spells over the course of the battle, or one absolutely devastating one: Hahaha, yeah, I saw the fireball change in LuckySpade's youtube a while back and I wasn't sure if it was just him fooling around with mod tools. I'm kinda glad for it, since it's balanced by being stupidly expensive and not nearly as effective against armor and low unit counts. That's basically spells in C&C in a nutshell: much more expensive, but battle-swinging in their potency.
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Sep 12, 2018 20:20
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Panfilo posted:In addition to 'defensive' stance, I wish there was an 'agressive' stance which would engage enemies that got close, particularly for missile units so they actually shoot at flying units flapping around outside their firing arc or remember to TURN AROUND when they rally. I feel like previous games had a rally point feature for retreating units but I may have dreamed it.
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Sep 12, 2018 21:39
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toasterwarrior posted:Nah, works totally fine, just makes things harder which I like. The C&C modder straight up said they pair quite nicely. I haven't seen Skaven spells improved all that much, unfortunately. Dreaded 13th feels kind of pointless when you get a free version of it anyway. Poison doesn't stack with itself so spending winds to get poison (compared to other units /abilities that already come with it).
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Sep 12, 2018 22:24
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Does the AI follow the Core/Special/Rare limitations when building their armies when you're using that mod?
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Sep 13, 2018 10:08
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Nuramor posted:Does the AI follow the Core/Special/Rare limitations when building their armies when you're using that mod? As best as they can, though unfortunately the scripting can't stop them from going over the top when recruiting new units. So like, an Empire faction can recruit 5 Greatswords in one army (2 Special slots per GS, max of 10), but they can't be stopped from recruiting other Special units or more Greatswords as long as they have recruitment slots available in that specific turn. Once those Greatswords are recruited, the scripting will work fine, however, and restrict further Special recruitment. IIRC higher difficulties give additional recruitment slots to the AI, which can exacerbate the problem.
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Sep 13, 2018 10:59
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What the gently caress is this bug and how do I stop it from happening 
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Sep 13, 2018 11:27
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Not specifically Warhammer related, but it's doing my head in... Around the time of Empre the UI introduced buttons (near the mini map I think) which would tell selected units to move forwards or backwards or rotate, and maintain exact formation. I found these incredibly useful, and now they're gone (or at least not in Shogun 2 or Rome 2). If you highlight the desired units and just click somewhere ahead they will all walk forward but won't maintain proper formation like with the buttons. Is there still a way to do this - am I missing something really obvious?
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Sep 13, 2018 11:47
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:What the gently caress is this bug and how do I stop it from happening TW:W3's Warp maps looking good! OneSizeFitsAll posted:Not specifically Warhammer related, but it's doing my head in... Think that's Alt-drag now.
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Sep 13, 2018 11:48
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Not specifically Warhammer related, but it's doing my head in... You can lock control groups to maintain their formation, either by holding CTRL when you make the group, or pressing the lock icon next to their group number. Right clicking will move them in formation, or ALT+left click and dragging will move selected units more precisely. Hold down CTRL and ALT while dragging to rotate. Hope that helps!
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Sep 13, 2018 11:49
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Thanks guys - will try those. Think it would have made sense from a simplicity POV to keep the buttons, though.
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Sep 13, 2018 11:54
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You can also use the arrow keys on the keyboard to move formations relative to their current position, ctrl-arrow keys to rotate the formation.
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Sep 13, 2018 12:00
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Also one more thing about Tabletop Unit Caps: Regiments of Renown are exempt. So if you stack an Empire army with Demigryph Knights (3 Special points each., so only 3 can be taken for a total of 9 Special points), you can have a total of 4 units by hiring the Royal Altdorf Gryphites.
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Sep 13, 2018 13:05
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That mod seems like it would seriously exacerbate the issues chaff-heavy races have vs elite races. Also, don’t use locked groups to maintain formation. Learn to love alt-click and drag, alt arrows, and ctrl arrows. It’s far more fluid and intuitive.
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Sep 13, 2018 13:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Also, don’t use locked groups to maintain formation. Learn to love alt-click and drag, alt arrows, and ctrl arrows. It’s far more fluid and intuitive. Seconded. Formations are handy but they get way too fiddly sometimes. Alt-dragging just works, with the slight downside that alt is my discord PTT key so people yell at me for hotmicing
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Sep 13, 2018 13:29
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:That mod seems like it would seriously exacerbate the issues chaff-heavy races have vs elite races. Yeah, the army books themselves aren't exactly epitomes of balance, like the Dwarf book and Longbeards. Generally you can rely on the enemy AI throwing multiple stacks at you to even the score, though.
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Sep 13, 2018 13:42
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:What the gently caress is this bug and how do I stop it from happening Try verifying the integrity of your files, i had a similar problem happen for me and doing that fixed it.
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Sep 13, 2018 15:04
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I'm just not keen on further gimping my army, personally. With armies like Skaven it is just too punishing to further limit your forces. As is even with tier 4 minor settlements Skaven need to invest quite a bit to get a good balanced army. Skaven, by their cowardly nature, are particularly susceptible to the C&C overhaul, running away without being able to do much damage. Queek can at least make Clan Rats become pretty potent for their cost, but this takes a while and by then you've already gotten a lot of war crime units already. In contrast, Greenskins get the WAAGH ability and their spells are nice for further buffing their chaff units, not to mention getting Waagh armies to help build up momentum on a good victory.
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Sep 13, 2018 16:44
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I just read that C&C uses Advanced AI 2. Do I have to activate it manually or is it included?
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Sep 14, 2018 00:43
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I think they might have bundled it in. Usually if the mod requires other mods it indicates it. I have it just to be safe.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:53
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I had to download it separately.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:57
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One of the better Skaven spells in the mod is Wither, which is permanent like curse of rust. Having an enemy lord lose 60% of his armor and speed after two minutes is pretty good. Combined with getting poked by an assassin for the debilitating poison debuff you can surround them and eventually peck them to death. It's also nice for dealing with stuff like dragons since Skaven have no flying units and only warp lightning is accurate enough to hit them reliably. Skitterleap also gets a neat effect where you get a damage buff after the stealth gets compromised, very good for Rat Ogres or Death Runners.
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Sep 14, 2018 01:10
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I really, really don't get why CA doesn't make vortexes aimable. I'm gonna drop a huge amount of winds on banishment or purple sun and it might mulch half my dudes or simply do no damage to anyone at all? It makes the spells competitively irrelevant and frustrating in single player.
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Sep 14, 2018 01:34
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Vortexes are for dropping on top of the blob that your tank commander has gathered up.
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Sep 14, 2018 01:38
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lurksion posted:Vortexes are for dropping on top of the blob that your tank commander has gathered up. Engineer LL with steam tank mount when CA?
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Sep 14, 2018 01:53
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Best use in vanilla is to drop it behind the main gate in a siege since there's usually units sitting back there and the vortex will bounce off walls. C&C making it aimable makes it a million times more useful, and the overcast gets 3 randomly moving ones which are also going to cause a lot of mayhem in tight confines. Early on in the mod the damage for them was pretty insane, easily able to outright erase 3 medium tier blocks of infantry. They've toned it down, which is too bad because on hard /very hard you tend to have these crazy Battle of Themopolaye scenarios and wiping out 3 squads like this becomes necessary to survive overwhelming odds.
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Sep 14, 2018 03:51
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According to Lucky Spade you have to activate Advanced AI 2 separately!
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Sep 14, 2018 04:02
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C&C is weird. It makes the game funner and more challenging I think because of campaign poo poo, but battles are... really easy. The buffs you can sling around are insane. But also they're harder somehow? I don't know but I'm still really digging it. It's surprisingly deep. Try CnC today, particularly as Empire!
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Sep 14, 2018 04:16
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Empire is great, because they get a little of everything which gives you a good idea of the type of changes Choice and Consequence makes. They also get a good amount of bonuses from trade buildings. Battle Wizards are VERY powerful now and Balthasar Gelt gets them going at a massively higher level. Supposedly the melee only lords were buffed to keep them in line with caster lords, but overall caster lords are extremely powerful in this overhaul because of how useful spells become. Magical damage is much more useful as well, because there's a lot of skills that give a particular unit(s) a good chunk of physical resist. Volkmar for example can end up buffing Flagellants to the point of having like 45% physical resist, 50% missile resist, and unlimited vigor on a unit that is already fearless.
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Sep 14, 2018 04:29
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Do lords in C&C use more magic because of the more streamlined skill progression or no? a complaint I have is the AI never seems to use magic beyond the first beginner spell in a school because they never skill up for anything else or because of the AI's suicidal or passive nature never has a double digit lord level to do so. Now that I think of it, I'd like a mod that gave every AI faction a lord recruitment rank and faction wide exp bonus based off your imperium or faction leader level or combined lord levels. How hard would that be to create? it might spice up the game after the first 50 turns where your level 40 faction leader with full equipment and double digit stat buffs for your troops just wipes the floor with everything.
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Sep 14, 2018 05:28
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Do lords in C&C use more magic because of the more streamlined skill progression or no? a complaint I have is the AI never seems to use magic beyond the first beginner spell in a school because they never skill up for anything else or because of the AI's suicidal or passive nature never has a double digit lord level to do so. The AI using more magic (buffs, winds, missiles, everything) in battles is a thing Advanced AI fixes, C&C included some of its changes
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Sep 14, 2018 06:41
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Yeah, it definitely uses bolt spells and direct target DoT spells decently. What gets weird are cone spells which it often mis targets (spawn dwellers below in the midst of an enemy rat blob and their Grey seer will blast a Pestilent breath right into their own guys the moment your spawn starts) and global buffs that most races get with their lords. For example, Greenskins get Waagh which buffs charge bonus, melee attack and makes all their units cause fear for 30 seconds. This is extremely potent against Skaven. But the Skaven player only needs to engage the greenskin AI with a single unit to get them to trigger it. Dwellers below again will cause the AI to instantly activate these kinds of abilities even if they are miles from your main lines.
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Sep 14, 2018 07:03
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As an example of the changes Choice and Consequence does, here's an example of Skaven unit buffs in the skill tree: (Each buff happens when the unit reaches rank 1/4/7) Slaves: You can either get better replenishment, melee attack, and leadership or greatly reduced upkeep, melee defense, and Stubborn. Both are useful though the second is probably the most useful for such an expendible chaff unit. Stubborn is great on a unit like this because it ensures they won't run away before actually doing their job over the course of the battle. Runners: Reload, Fatigue reduction, and Leadership or Melee attack, armor piercing, and Ammo. This split is kind of weird because fatigue reduction and ammo would be better together, but fatigue reduction on a skirmisher unit overall is significant, and melee attack+armor piercing is another nice combo. Actually ammo is kind of an afterthought on the slinger variants because they already start with a lot of ammo anyway. Weapon Teams: Range, reload, and fatigue reduction or Ammo, armor piercing, and armor. Both are pretty useful; missile units tire out faster than melee so fatigue reduction in this overhaul really does make a difference, and this is one of the few Skaven units that can end up with pretty good armor in the end. Clanrats: Melee attack, weapon damage, and fatigue reduction or Upkeep, replenishment, and immune to psychology. The first choice is really strong, and this is one of the few units in the whole overhaul that actually gets more regular damage. The second one is great for secondary lords and psychology immunity is a huge force multiplier for them because Fear/Terror really screws over low-leadership Skaven armies. Plague Monks: Melee attack, poison, physical resist or Prey Sighted, fatigue resistance, and Discouraged. Plague Monks are glass cannons even by Skaven standards, and the first choice actually gives them a ton more survivability through poison/phys resist combo. The second is great for chasing down fleeing enemies and stuff that doesn't want to get bogged down in melee. Fatigue resistance is probably less useful on this unit as it is so fragile it will probably die/flee before it starts getting too tired. Artillery: Upkeep, replenishment, and armor piercing or Ammo, Reload, Fatigue reduction. Probably the biggest disappointment, as both options are kind of blah for such cool units. Stormvermin: Melee Defense, Armor, and Fatigue reduction or Melee attack, armor rending and regeneration. Like Dwarf units, you can either make them tanky or fighty; in this case I'd go with the former since Skaven really lack decent line-holding units normally. Censer Bearers: Physical resistance, melee attack, agonizing poison, or melee defense, leadership, and crushed. Surprised Censer Bearers aren't lumped in with the regular Plague Monks. First one is good for the Agonizing poison, which is a bigger debuff than regular poison and will be handy vs enemy elite units. Rat Ogres: Missile resistance, Bonus vs infantry, and Unbreakable or Melee Attack, Melee Damage, and Crushed. Both are excellent, though the first choice is significant in that making them fearless gets rid of a big weakness and lets them rip through a LOT of infantry as a result (great against Tomb Kings!). Doomwheel: Armor, melee defense, and Ward save, or Charge Bonus, Armor Piercing, and Perfect Vigor. Both are great; perfect vigor in particular will shine in long drawn out battles late game. Death Runners: Physical resist, Prey sighted, and Melee defense or Melee attack, armor piercing, and Perfect Vigor. You could go either way though I'd probably focus on their strengths and pick the second set. Abominations: Weapon damage, Crushed, and Bonus vs infantry or Melee Defense, missile resistance, and enhanced regeneration. The first one stacks very well with itself but enhanced regeneration gives a HUGE heal when activated and outside fire damage will keep the thing alive for a long time.
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Sep 14, 2018 15:51
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