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Sounds like a boring rear end sim game to me. If I was playing God, I'd definitely introduce war and destruction to my inhabitants to make it fun.
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Sep 13, 2018 23:36
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If you don’t want discord in your world, you don’t have to create a weirdo nihilist ideologue god to fill it up with discord.
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Sep 13, 2018 23:39
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The plan was always for Melkor to gently caress everything up. Iluvatar had complete control over his design after all. The Valar's plan didn't really have an end goal besides "make a nice place to live" because, on a fundamental level, they didn't understand the children of Iluvatar
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Sep 13, 2018 23:42
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cheetah7071 posted:The plan was always for Melkor to gently caress everything up. Iluvatar had complete control over his design after all. The Valar's plan didn't really have an end goal besides "make a nice place to live" because, on a fundamental level, they didn't understand the children of Iluvatar The Ainur didn't know they were actually making Arda until it was done, right? I thought they all got together and sang a big song, then Iluvatar said "Check this out, this is what you were making the whole time guys" and showed them the world.
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Sep 13, 2018 23:45
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Pham Nuwen posted:The Ainur didn't know they were actually making Arda until it was done, right? I thought they all got together and sang a big song, then Iluvatar said "Check this out, this is what you were making the whole time guys" and showed them the world. That was just a vision. He then said "okay but for real go make it the hard way" afterwards.
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Sep 13, 2018 23:46
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God isn't real and Gandalf is just a normal old wizard with weird mates, taking little people on adventures.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:00
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All things, even Melkor's fuckery, have their source in Eru. The world as it is is the way Eru intended it to be.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:40
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The best of all possible worlds. Sorry Túrin.
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Sep 14, 2018 00:42
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Iluvatar represents a Buddha attempting to minister to a group of devas. This was obviously successful in the case of Gandalf but results otherwise were rather mixed. Sam's Buddha-nature allowed him to prevail in the face of temptations.
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Sep 14, 2018 01:08
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Pham Nuwen posted:Wonder what the original plan for Arda was, without Melkor's loving it up. A symmetrical, flat world with men and elves living together (no dwarves), lit by the lamps, men not afraid of death / don't distrust the elves. Possibly with the Ainur just wandering around hanging out and making trees, that sort of thing. Didn't Eru say when he was yelling at Melkor that even his discordant song was still part of the song and therefore still Eru's and not Melkor's or something to that effect? The implication being that Melkor's discord isn't him one-upping God but is in fact part of God's plan.
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Sep 14, 2018 03:42
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Ginette Reno posted:Didn't Eru say when he was yelling at Melkor that even his discordant song was still part of the song and therefore still Eru's and not Melkor's or something to that effect? Correct. Specifically, the greater song was designed so that Melkor's dissonance would in fact complement and complete it. Unfortunately, Melkor completely missed the point of the whole exercise, which was to show that Eru had already anticipated what he was going to do.
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Sep 14, 2018 06:25
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Re: Tom Bombadil just after he rescued the hobbits from the wight. quote:He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last: Is it mentioned elsewhere who the brooch might have belonged to? Its certainly implied Tom knew her. Or am I just overthinking this and it's a throwaway line?
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Sep 14, 2018 10:06
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Octy posted:Is it mentioned elsewhere who the brooch might have belonged to? Its certainly implied Tom knew her. Or am I just overthinking this and it's a throwaway line?
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Sep 14, 2018 10:23
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The barrow was that of the last prince of Cardolan, so probably it was someone associated with the Cardolanian (Cardolingian?) royal house he was thinking of. He does seem to have a bit of a thing for the Dunedain, he’s familiar with Aragorn and knows who he is after all. But it’s Bombadil so who the hell knows.
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Sep 14, 2018 11:30
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skasion posted:Building on that: broadly speaking the elves are meant to contrast a “pagan” ideal of humanity with the Christian concept of humanity that Tolkien refers to as “men”. The elves are godlike entities. They walk with the gods and know their minds, they even mate with them to produce a heroic demigod whose ancestry will go on to define the legitimacy of even later merely human monarchs. They are beautiful and physically flawless and live forever, unafraid of death and sometimes glorying in it, but consequently have a monumental lack of humility that casts their morality and ultimate fate into doubt. Despite this, they were the originators of the culture to which men consider themselves heirs, uplifting men from a barbarous state and making possible their future civilization. They are at first fascinated by humanity, but ultimately disappointed and doomed by them. Even the best of them must ultimately resign themselves to this change and let their memories be consigned to myth while they retreat from the world proper into a worldly paradise. This makes a lot of sense to me esp now that I’ve learned a lot more about British history. What must the German colonizers thought of Britain when they found it post Roman Empire.
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Sep 14, 2018 12:45
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skasion posted:Building on that: broadly speaking the elves are meant to contrast a “pagan” ideal of humanity with the Christian concept of humanity that Tolkien refers to as “men”. The elves are godlike entities. They walk with the gods and know their minds, they even mate with them to produce a heroic demigod whose ancestry will go on to define the legitimacy of even later merely human monarchs. They are beautiful and physically flawless and live forever, unafraid of death and sometimes glorying in it, but consequently have a monumental lack of humility that casts their morality and ultimate fate into doubt. Despite this, they were the originators of the culture to which men consider themselves heirs, uplifting men from a barbarous state and making possible their future civilization. They are at first fascinated by humanity, but ultimately disappointed and doomed by them. Even the best of them must ultimately resign themselves to this change and let their memories be consigned to myth while they retreat from the world proper into a worldly paradise. This is a great writeup, thanks.
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Sep 14, 2018 12:56
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Ginette Reno posted:Melkor's discord Send me the link to his server, yo.
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Sep 14, 2018 15:14
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skasion posted:The barrow was that of the last prince of Cardolan, so probably it was someone associated with the Cardolanian (Cardolingian?) royal house he was thinking of. He does seem to have a bit of a thing for the Dunedain, he’s familiar with Aragorn and knows who he is after all. But it’s Bombadil so who the hell knows. He's also familiar with Barliman Butterbur, so yeah who the hell knows. Ah well, I always enjoy re-reading these books. I'm going through them more slowly this time and picking up odds and ends that I've missed/forgotten.
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Sep 14, 2018 22:04
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elise the great posted:Still convinced that Gimli took Thranduil’s seat on the boat when Legolas left cause Thranduil wanted his son to be happy (and preferred to stay with his kingdom). Either way it’s sad as gently caress cause it’s not like Gimli is gonna live forever over there like Legolas will and someday he’ll just be alone with strangers at the tomb of his dead I always took valinor to be a Tir na NOg type deal, no one dies of old age or whatever? Then again, I have no recollection of where I got that idea.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:07
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It is not the land that makes people deathless, but rather the Deathless who dwell therein have hallowed the land
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Sep 19, 2018 18:08
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Yeah, that’s just the black Númenorean in you. Elvish doctrine is that everyone in Valinor lives forever because the only people who live there are the kinds of people who happen to live forever anyway. In much the same way as elves and gods who leave continue to live immortally, mortals can’t be stripped of their mortality just by going there. Regardless of your position on such metaphysical questions, Frodo isn’t going to Valinor to live forever, he’s going there to forget his suffering so he can die in peace.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:14
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Good question on the lord of the rings read through podcast: who built the road east of Bree and where does it go? It obviously doesn’t go to Rivendell. It’s used by Dwarves. The last we see of it is at the Ford of Bruinin.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:19
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Data Graham posted:It is not the land that makes people deathless, but rather the Deathless who dwell therein have hallowed the land skasion posted:Yeah, that’s just the black Númenorean in you. Elvish doctrine is that everyone in Valinor lives forever because the only people who live there are the kinds of people who happen to live forever anyway. In much the same way as elves and gods who leave continue to live immortally, mortals can’t be stripped of their mortality just by going there. Regardless of your position on such metaphysical questions, Frodo isn’t going to Valinor to live forever, he’s going there to forget his suffering so he can die in peace. to these points, isn't there the idea that when mortals travel to the undying lands, their mortality is sped up? like they die even faster because their tiny mortal selves can't deal with how undying the lands actually are?
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Sep 19, 2018 18:22
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euphronius posted:Good question on the lord of the rings read through podcast: who built the road east of Bree and where does it go? It obviously doesn’t go to Rivendell. It’s used by Dwarves. The last we see of it is at the Ford of Bruinin. Are you sure it doesn't go to Rivendell? I always read it as it goes to Rivendell (or at least close enough as makes no difference), and an eastbound traveller would then continue up and over the High Pass through the Misty Mountains, which then leads to another road going further east through Mirkwood and finally tips out somewhere near Erebor or Lake-town or the River Running. It surely would have been built and maintained by the King of Arnor for the convenience of anyone who wants to cross the Mountains but doesn't want to go as far south as Caradhras/Moria/the Gap of Rohan.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:31
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Rivendell is a hidden city. Although you wonder how Boromir found it.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:32
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Trin Tragula posted:Are you sure it doesn't go to Rivendell? I always read it as it goes to Rivendell (or at least close enough as makes no difference), and an eastbound traveller would then continue up and over the High Pass through the Misty Mountains, which then leads to another road going further east through Mirkwood and finally tips out somewhere near Erebor or Lake-town or the River Running. It surely would have been built and maintained by the King of Arnor for the convenience of anyone who wants to cross the Mountains but doesn't want to go as far south as Caradhras/Moria/the Gap of Rohan. I think I assumed it goes to the mine works of Thorins' family during their wandering years. Could be wrong.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:38
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euphronius posted:Rivendell is a hidden city. Well yeah but it's not like it's miles away from anything. I always read it as, if you didn't know it was there you'd walk right past on the way from Bruinen up the High Pass, but if you're paying attention you know the exact cleft to go into and ten yards along, and then turn left where a cunning Labyrinth visual illusion makes it look like there isn't a left turn, and go down the stairs that you can't possibly see until you're right at the top of them, and so on and so forth.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:38
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euphronius posted:Good question on the lord of the rings read through podcast: who built the road east of Bree and where does it go? It obviously doesn’t go to Rivendell. It’s used by Dwarves. The last we see of it is at the Ford of Bruinin. Dwarves, with parts of it probably improved by the northern Dunedain during the third age and other parts left to fall into decay as the House of Durin scattered. It goes over the passes east of Rivendell that they use in The Hobbit. Then it hooks up with the road through Mirkwood and heads off to points unknown in the east, probably the Iron Hills or Erebor or something eventually. The western terminus is in the Blue Mountains near the havens, to link up to the very old dwarven cities there. There’s no reason for the Arnorian kings to have built the whole thing to begin with though. There is no evidence that they had any contact with anyone on the other side of the mountains — the kingdoms of the Northmen there seem to have been considered part of Gondor’s backyard (such as in the background events to the Kinstrife). euphronius posted:Rivendell is a hidden city. He was extremely hardcore, and also it’s not like the elves were trying to keep him out; but yeah there’s definitely a never fully told story there. Denethor was learned enough to give him the right approximate idea of where to go, but it still took him a month longer to get from Minas Tirith to Rivendell than it took the Fellowship to make the opposite journey.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:44
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Elrond already had scouts out looking for Frodo so maybe one of them found Boromir
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Sep 19, 2018 18:45
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On the map in the book the road ends at the Ford. Tough to see what it is called on Kindle tho.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:45
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Do they use a road east of Rivendell in the Hobbit ? I don’t remember and I’m not buying it on Kindle.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:47
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Time to go do what I should have done from the start, here's what the narrator says when the hobbits arrive at Bree.quote:Down on the Road, where it swept to the right to go round the foot of the hill, there was a large inn. It had been built long ago when the traffic on the roads had been far greater. For Bree stood at an old meeting of ways; another ancient road crossed the East Road just outside the dike at the western end of the village, and in former days Men and other folk of various sorts had travelled much on it. Strange as News from Bree was still a saying in the Eastfarthing, descending from those days, when news from North, South, and East could be heard in the inn, and when the Shire-hobbits used to go more often to hear it. But the Northern Lands had long been desolate, and the North Road was now seldom used: it was grass-grown, and the Bree-folk called it the Greenway. Emphasis mine. "Another" ancient road implies that both the Greenway and the East Road are of equal status; and we are also told that in in times past (but not quite yet out of memory), it was still possible to go to Bree and hear the news from the East. And of course "ancient road" reminds me that the mountains west of the Shire are survivors from the First Age, so yeah, that now sounds like a dwarf road, and there would have been news coming to Bree from the East from at least TA 1999/SR 399 (Thrain I becomes first King under the Mountain) to TA 2770/SR 1170 (Smaug comes to Erebor), which is only about 200 years before events in The Hobbit. euphronius posted:Do they use a road east of Rivendell in the Hobbit ? I don’t remember and I’m not buying it on Kindle. quote:It was indeed a much wider land from the ford to the mountains than ever you would have guessed. Bilbo was astonished. The only path was marked with white stones, some of which were small, and others were half covered with moss or heather. Altogether it was a very slow business following the track, even guided by Gandalf, who seemed to know his way about pretty well. Whether this is a road that goes to Rivendell only, or which goes up into the mountains and one has to turn from it to get to the secret valley, or which splits in two and does both, is left unclear. When they get back on their way again: quote:There were many paths that led up into those mountains, and many passes over them. But most of the paths were cheats and deceptions and led nowhere or to bad ends; and most of the passes were infested by evil things and dreadful dangers. The dwarves and the hobbit, helped by the wise advice of Elrond and the knowledge and memory of Gandalf, took the right road to the right pass. East of the mountains, it seems that Gandalf had intended them to take the marked Old Forest Road through Mirkwood, but when they get dropped on the Carrock by the Eagles, they stay north (as far away from Dol Guldur as possible) and go across Beorn's country instead (with no road, apparently) to another forest track. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 19:00
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Sounds like no road east of Rivendell over the mountains. Which matches the map.
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Sep 19, 2018 19:16
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skasion posted:He was extremely hardcore, and also it’s not like the elves were trying to keep him out; but yeah there’s definitely a never fully told story there. Denethor was learned enough to give him the right approximate idea of where to go, but it still took him a month longer to get from Minas Tirith to Rivendell than it took the Fellowship to make the opposite journey. Boromir took the Gap of Rohan and lost his horse along the way iirc. Wouldn't that have been a bit of a circuitous route as opposed to the more direct path of going through Moria and then taking the river?
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Sep 19, 2018 19:18
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Ginette Reno posted:Boromir took the Gap of Rohan and lost his horse along the way iirc. Wouldn't that have been a bit of a circuitous route as opposed to the more direct path of going through Moria and then taking the river? The Fellowship also wasted a month in Lorien
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Sep 19, 2018 19:20
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Ginette Reno posted:Boromir took the Gap of Rohan and lost his horse along the way iirc. Wouldn't that have been a bit of a circuitous route as opposed to the more direct path of going through Moria and then taking the river? No, it's actually the most direct route from Minas Tirith, as well as the path of least resistance. Someone's done an interactive map that I've been referring to, have a look.
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Sep 19, 2018 19:25
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Many others of Elrond’s household stood in the shadows and watched them go, bidding them farewell with soft voices. There was no laughter, and no song or music. At last they turned away and faded silently into the dusk. They crossed the bridge and wound slowly up the long steep paths that led out of the cloven vale of Rivendell; and they came at length to the high moor where the wind hissed through the heather. Then with one glance at the Last Homely House twinkling below them they strode away far into the night. At the Ford of Bruinen they left the Road and turning southwards went on by narrow paths among the folded lands. This seems to imply the Road does indeed extend somewhat past the Ford to near Rivendell.
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Sep 19, 2018 19:27
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Ginette Reno posted:Boromir took the Gap of Rohan and lost his horse along the way iirc. Wouldn't that have been a bit of a circuitous route as opposed to the more direct path of going through Moria and then taking the river? I don't think it would have occurred to anyone to think of Moria as a path to anywhere, let alone consider it the most direct route.
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Sep 19, 2018 19:30
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Ginette Reno posted:Boromir took the Gap of Rohan and lost his horse along the way iirc. Wouldn't that have been a bit of a circuitous route as opposed to the more direct path of going through Moria and then taking the river? He took the quickest route available to him, the Greenway, but it’s not very direct, as the land dictates. I don’t think Tolkien anywhere wrote - precise itinerary of Boromir’s journey, just the length overall — 110 days — so it’s hard to say when he got to the vicinity of Rivendell and started seriously looking around. Anyway, the fellowship were on foot for most of the distance to Gondor themselves. cheetah7071 posted:The Fellowship also wasted a month in Lorien Hadn’t thought of this but that’s a good point. Further stresses the difficulty that Boromir encountered in his journey. Data Graham posted:I don't think it would have occurred to anyone to think of Moria as a path to anywhere, let alone consider it the most direct route. Except Gandalf, the dope. Boromir surely would not have considered going up the river (surely very difficult boating for a man alone anyway) in order to scale a pass he had never seen over the misty mountains just to get down into Eregion and still have weeks to get to Rivendell ahead of him. (Or go into Moria alone with no idea of the route through, lol). But the post isn’t saying he would. skasion fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 19:40
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Boromir could easily have wasted weeks or more in Rohan being a diplomat. the lands between Rohan and Rivendell are pretty empty because Middle Earth is practically post-apocalyptic but I wouldn't be surprised if he had a secondary mission of being Gondor's eyes and finding out what was going on up north, which would slow him down.
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Sep 19, 2018 19:42
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