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MariusLecter posted:I liked the hot take that showing Erik as a kid with his dad in their apartment was portraying him as childish. That was the most empathizing moment of the movie for him, just lol if you didn't get teary eyed and stuff. Yea, that was such a great scene. "People die. I won't cry." cutting to adult him crying and barely holding back from openly sobbing. 
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Sep 14, 2018 18:56
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Your Gay Uncle posted:This how Goonswarm, the Eve Online guild came to prominence. Instead of buying a few expensive warships , they just put tons of recruits into modified mining vessels they patched a guns onto, them once they ran out of ammo they’re just ram their Dodge Neon into someone else’s Porsche. Yeah but you can't take out a titan in EVE by ramming a venture into it. Much less a titan and the entire fleet that's hanging around it. If you could it would completely destroy the economy, similar to the star wars situation.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:07
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Zaphod42 posted:I'm not actually upset at ships in star wars needing fuel, even though we've never heard it before, for instance. My problem is that the fuel limits are extremely nebulous to the point of never mattering before until the critical moment and then never again seemingly. That's bad writing. If you're going to go that route, have fuel be an issue in the beginning of the movie or something, so that we have a setup and then later a payoff. 
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Sep 14, 2018 19:13
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Morpheus posted:
well yeah there's always just been one "side" which is just the pure and healthy force in its natural state, then there's the tumor/sickness called the dark side
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Sep 14, 2018 19:15
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Pilchenstein posted:Lol, do we honestly need to have the twin concepts of "fuel" and "running out of it" explained to us ahead of time? Yes? Otherwise its an awkward deus ex machina. We don't need someone to say "ships burn fuel to go!" but we do need a situation where people are like "shoot we used all our fuel, we need to get more" or like "We can impulse around without fuel but we better get some more if we want to jump to hyperdrive!" or whatever the rule is. "These fighter ships have unlimited fuel but our capital ship is getting low", just some kind of explanation of what they can or can't do. There can't be dramatic tension if the only reasoning is "the plot called for it". At that point everything is just a contrivance. To have real drama the audience needs to understand the stakes on some level. At the moment it just feels extremely inconsistent, to the point of breaking suspension of disbelief. "are we gonna run out of fuel? Whew, we didn't" isn't a big deal, unless we've previously seen a moment where someone did run out of fuel and it mattered. Or the other way around, we have a situation where they're being chased and barely have enough fuel to jump. Then later on, it comes up again, and poo poo, this time we don't have enough fuel to jump. Because we used it up last time and didn't have a chance to get more. This could also be an opportunity for world building, as you could have a situation like the New Order are using their economic power and influence to keep anybody from selling fuel to the rebels, making it harder for them to wage war. Then the whole movie we know they're running out of fuel and it may bite them in the rear end later, building tension. Zaphod42 has a new favorite as of 19:22 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 19:18
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Also, Episode IX probably won't bomb outright but it will probably make less money than Jumanji 3.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:21
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Crimpolioni posted:well yeah there's always just been one "side" which is just the pure and healthy force in its natural state, then there's the tumor/sickness called the dark side Maybe we could describe the Light side of the force as wind energy and solar and the Dark side as fracking and fossil fuels?
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Sep 14, 2018 19:21
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Also maybe they should introduce the bar graph earlier in the movie, and like Luke should talk about how metaphorically hitting Empty is bad. So we're prepared later.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:22
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Zaphod42 posted:I agree, although to be fair Rogue One does end basically exactly where A New Hope starts, with basically zero time skip. That was my point though; Rogue One does it, but in a different way; a prequel that ends immediately before the original begins, with the ending being well-known and a foregone conclusion for anyone with a rough familiarity with the franchise. The sense of finality is important. That and Rogue One is a spinoff and interquel, it does things differently whereas the sequels and prequels generally stick to the same cinematic language as the original movies. (Generally, anyway. I think Kylo Ren and Luke's memories were the first time a mainline Star Wars has flashbacks?) While the need to immediately raise the stakes when picking up straight off the last movie gives no room to breathe and no status quo worth establishing, hence you're reliant on what you remember of the last movie and thus would expect things brought up in it to be addressed, obviously they're meant to go together, aren't they? I'm not even sure what was the point of the Resistance basically sacrificing a ton of ships and people to blow up the 'fleet-killer' given they end up with a dead fleet anyway. There's no real acknowledgement that the capital of the galaxy's primary government and its entire system has been annihilated with billions dead and the core of society wiped out in one fell swoop, the people most invested in it are still gambling and partying away like nothing happened and it's just business as usual. What are the stakes? What are they fighting for? What's the point?
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Sep 14, 2018 19:23
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Morpheus posted:I'm more annoyed at how, in one movie, they introduce the cool idea of there not being a good/dark side to the force, then immediately discard it. Would've loved to see Rey embrace that idea and become someone elevated above the dual concept. Same. I was convinced the whole "Kylo Ren talks to Ray telepathically" was going to start some thing where he tries to teach her the dark side all along luke teaching her the light side, and then she'd end up being some grey jedi like uhh Revan or whoever. But nope. Back to good guys and bad guys. I really really want to see an exploration of jedi as the bad guys. Total oppression, total authoritarianism, no emotions, there must be order and the jedi will kill you if you disrupt it. And then you have the sith as "good guys" trying to fight a rebellion for freedom of expression and art and love and emotion, while the Jedi are like "these guys are too wild and dangerous" And then you have a cool conflict between understandable characters. Instead of just "yeah this emperor guy is literally pure evil, he's basically Satan on a spaceship"
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Sep 14, 2018 19:24
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MariusLecter posted:Maybe we could describe the Light side of the force as wind energy and solar and the Dark side as fracking and fossil fuels? you could but i don't see why you'd want to
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Sep 14, 2018 19:27
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Crimpolioni posted:you could but i don't see why you'd want to SMG cosplay
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Sep 14, 2018 19:28
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Wheat Loaf posted:Also, Episode IX probably won't bomb outright but it will probably make less money than Jumanji 3. I feel it's a bit soon for that, but then again it feels fitting for the board game movie to be a classic for years until it has to compete with modern entertainment technology, and then go through iterative changes to keep up with rapidly advancing technology and standards. Kind of the opposite, but Jumanji 2 actually worked really well in capturing not just the feel of video games, but a very specific era of video games; the presentation and themes of the world are very much like an early 3D era (Playstation, Nintendo 64) game (especially fitting since one character is basically Lara Croft) with just enough depth to make the janky bits like NPCs with limited scripted dialogue stand out. And they even have that make sense, since it originally altered itself to suit games of that era and then literally collected dust for decades before being rediscovered.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:29
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I feel it's a bit soon for that, but then again it feels fitting for the board game movie to be a classic for years until it has to compete with modern entertainment technology, and then go through iterative changes to keep up with rapidly advancing technology and standards. Obviously we'll have to wait and see, but I am reasonably confident about it. Jumanji 2 made less money than Last Jedi but I think it's reasonably arguable that it was a more successful movie.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:32
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Zaphod42 posted:Same. I was convinced the whole "Kylo Ren talks to Ray telepathically" was going to start some thing where he tries to teach her the dark side all along luke teaching her the light side, and then she'd end up being some grey jedi like uhh Revan or whoever. Not even KoTOR could pull that off completely. Dark Side physically corrupts you and your companions. And the only emotions allowed for Sith are anger-related. Maybe there is the Mauve Jedi somewhere who only allow love-related emotions. But the Dark Side is explicitly the Dark Side and the Light Side isn't that great either. The Force sucks, I guess is what I'm saying.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:34
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Zaphod42 posted:And then you have a cool conflict between understandable characters. Instead of just "yeah this emperor guy is literally pure evil, he's basically Satan on a spaceship" re: fuel, I guess I've still got too many EU memories lingering (o rly), it didn't bother me at all because there they constantly pull new poo poo out of their rear end. Like "oh no the X-Wing's been hit! Now I've lost my inertia compensator!" "what does it do" "compensate inertia! That means a too tight turn will make me black out from the G forces!" "so...ANY turn in space?" "naw it's the equivalent of an action hero getting stabbed in the shoulder, they can still fight but now it makes them wince when they hit someone" But that's fine! Obviously the inertia stabilizer never matters until it breaks, so why would they mention it beforehand? Also, it makes sense that SOMETHING compensates for them doing tight turns at ridiculous speeds. Then if you think about it for a second, a) having it off means that you would normally be massively impaired and b) it's ludicrous magic technology anyway, but whatever! Don't think about it! Fuel works the same way, it's just less magical. Maybe that is the problem. Or people would bitch about inertial stabilizers if they started mentioning them in the movies .
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Sep 14, 2018 19:34
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Lucas' thing was always that it's totally black and white, good and evil.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:34
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Simply Simon posted:But that's fine! Obviously the inertia stabilizer never matters until it breaks, so why would they mention it beforehand? Also, it makes sense that SOMETHING compensates for them doing tight turns at ridiculous speeds. Then if you think about it for a second, a) having it off means that you would normally be massively impaired and b) it's ludicrous magic technology anyway, but whatever! Don't think about it! Yeah having fuel be a thing would be weird. They'd just out of the blue be like "Oh we need to refuel our fleet" which would be more jarring and obvious as to what's going to happen than if later they just say "Oh poo poo we're outta fuel!" I mean, fuel's a thing. Everyone understands how fuel works w/r/t vehicles. It'd be weirder if suddenly Kylo Ren stops his force powers and says "I need to consume more trelium crystals to power my force abilities, as all jedis need to."
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Sep 14, 2018 19:40
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Aphrodite posted:Lucas' thing was always that it's totally black and white, good and evil. as a concept, sure. good is good and evil is evil, that's just true. like the the force/god/the light is good, but the actual fallible jedi as an organization are still a dumb cult with a decadent temple & a slave army
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Sep 14, 2018 19:43
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Why didn't half the star destroyers just jump in front of the rebels with their hyperdrives?
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Sep 14, 2018 19:45
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Tunicate posted:Why didn't half the star destroyers just jump in front of the rebels with their hyperdrives? You'd probably have to ask George Lucas.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:49
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Tunicate posted:Why didn't half the star destroyers just jump in front of the rebels with their hyperdrives? Seriously. Pincer attack!
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Sep 14, 2018 19:55
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My irrational irritating movie moment is discussing movies with people on the internet, because it's always some guy saying something was stupid, I explain why they did that, and then they say that's even dumber without really pointing out any internal flaws in logic. It's really exhausting to keep rehashing things I like because i like them and want to talk about them. But I can't, because people have to fill a thread or chat or whatever, with how awful something is. Most of the time the criticisms are weak or non-existent, and when you point out something clever the director did people will tell you it was unintentional. It's so frustrating, I do not understand why people would want to spend their free time tearing down the things they hate instead of talking about the things they enjoy. Like why are there so many posters in the Star Wars thread who have not enjoyed a star wars movie in like 30+ years? You're not a fan at that point, if you only like the OT then you like less star wars movies then there are star wars movies. You probably don't like Star Wars. Tunicate posted:Why didn't half the star destroyers just jump in front of the rebels with their hyperdrives? space is big, and ships are very fast if they're not in hyper speed. moving faster then the speed of light moves you faster than 186,282 miles per second. If you just turned the hyper speed on for a fraction of a second (which you couldn't, because that's not how it works) you'd be so far away you wouldn't be able to intercept them for what might be ever. If they did 2 jumps, forward a bunch and then back, they'd be in front of a warships full battery of cannons. Plus the ship would be moving so fast it might risk smashing into them when they pop out of hyper space. It's also super inaccurate, you don't get to control where you pop out of hyperspace. You pop out, see how far off from where you guessed you were, then use sub light engines to get back. The books have all sorts of stories about empire dudes who spent entire battles micro jumping, and then getting blown up because they kept repositioning instead of fighting. The Thrawn Trilogy has an entire subplot revolving around Thrawn’s seemingly magical ability to emerge from hyperspace at exactly the right coordinates, which gave him an almost insurmountable tactical advantage (and turned out to be more of a house of cards than it appeared) (people forget, but the Thrawn Trilogy debuted 9 years before the Legends continuity). Finally it's a huge waste of resources, and the commander is a sadist. Part of the reason he is chasing them is because he wants to chase them and have them slowly die. Or else he'd have been much more aggressive, and wouldn't have wasted so much time. Turtlicious has a new favorite as of 19:59 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 19:57
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Just thought, wasn't there one bit in Rogue One where a few Rebel ships start jumping to lightspeed just as Vader's star destroyer jumps in from hyperspace and they get smashed against it?
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Sep 14, 2018 20:01
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Turtlicious posted:My irrational irritating movie moment is discussing movies with people on the internet, because it's always some guy saying something was stupid, I explain why they did that, and then they say that's even dumber without really pointing out any internal flaws in logic. It's really exhausting to keep rehashing things I like because i like them and want to talk about them. But I can't, because people have to fill a thread or chat or whatever, with how awful something is. Most of the time the criticisms are weak or non-existent, and when you point out something clever the director did people will tell you it was unintentional. What's this? People complaining about a recent movie in the complaining about movies thread? MODS?!!? quote:space is big, and ships are very fast if they're not in hyper speed. The entire plot relies upon the bad guys being able to precisely follow the rebels wherever they go; saying they don't have the precision to encounter the rebels is silly And why would the empire worry about facing rebel ships head-on? There are like three of them total, they're explicitly heavily outgunned with no chance of winning, and one of them is a medical ship. If you have to resort to out-of-text explanations in noncanon media to explain the plot, it's a bad plot. Tunicate has a new favorite as of 20:29 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 20:08
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I know it was to show Poe as reckless and give the one girl some motivation but the beginning battle with the bombers in Last Jedi was really stupid. Yeah WWII allusions and all but everything about it was so stupid.
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Sep 14, 2018 20:24
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Tunicate posted:The entire plot relies upon the bad guys being able to precisely follow the rebels wherever they go; saying they don't have the precision to encounter the rebels is silly They can track people through hyperspace, that's the only thing the plot shows them doing. Following technology is different then Tracking Technology. They would be scared of having a huge space ship smash into them. Well it's in a book, so it's explicitly in text, you know that Star Wars is a multi-media franchise at this point, with very clear and consistent rules of what is and isn't canon, you can't be like "I have all these questions," then get mad that the answer is to do some research into the writing / games / media. Wheat Loaf posted:Just thought, wasn't there one bit in Rogue One where a few Rebel ships start jumping to lightspeed just as Vader's star destroyer jumps in from hyperspace and they get smashed against it? Yes.
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Sep 14, 2018 20:30
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I have zero issues with the space chase setup because as I said, don't think too hard, but man you can't put the burden of loving research on people who have plot problems come into their head while watching a movie.
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Sep 14, 2018 20:32
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Turtlicious posted:They can track people through hyperspace, that's the only thing the plot shows them doing. Following technology is different then Tracking Technology. What's explicit in the movie is that the empire can show up right behind the rebels basically instantly after they hyperspace. quote:- They can track us through lightspeed? We have seen high-precision hyperspace stuff before - the most extreme being in The Force Awakens, where Han hyperspaces through a shield and flies around in-atmosphere. quote:Well it's in a book, so it's explicitly in text, you know that Star Wars is a multi-media franchise at this point, with very clear and consistent rules of what is and isn't canon, you can't be like "I have all these questions," then get mad that the answer is to do some research into the writing / games / media.
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Sep 14, 2018 20:38
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Hyperspace jumps in Star Wars really aren't super precise, at least not from a human perspective. Presumably the nav computer knows exactly what it's doing but the key thing it's worried about is making sure the route is clear of stuff that would kill you if you hit it. The distances we're talking about here are very small, if one ship is close enough to another that they can see each other out the viewing window, that's going to be closer than you'd be able to get by using a hyperspace jump. And there's really no jumping "ahead" of them because space is three dimensional. The rebel fleet can change their course at any time and then you're just in the same spot you were before.
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Sep 14, 2018 20:38
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Basebf555 posted:The distances we're talking about here are very small, if one ship is close enough to another that they can see each other out the viewing window, that's going to be closer than you'd be able to get by using a hyperspace jump. And there's really no jumping "ahead" of them because space is three dimensional. The rebel fleet can change their course at any time and then you're just in the same spot you were before. In this movie the pursuing fleet DID hyperspace in close enough to be instantly in combat range (which the rebels then gradually pull out of using their sublight engines). It isn't a fluke, either, since it also happens in Return of the Jedi and in Rogue One. As presented in the films this is a routine action that's no big deal. And splitting the huge fleet of like 20 star destroyers to sandwich the rebels still works even in 3d. As is, it seems pretty clear this plotline was stitched together out of multiple drafts - in particular, the part where Snoke gets the hyperspace tracking explained to him offscreen and then says "Tied to a string, indeed, General Hux. Well done," is a really weird way to talk about a piece of technology that's already been built and installed into all their star destroyers. Tunicate has a new favorite as of 20:55 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 20:51
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Simply Simon posted:I have zero issues with the space chase setup because as I said, don't think too hard, but man you can't put the burden of loving research on people who have plot problems come into their head while watching a movie. I mean sure I can, other people can find it unreasonable, but it makes sense in a tightly crafted 152 minutes, I'm not sure how much time can be spent on the hyper space system besides what they told us "They can keep speed, if we jump they jump right behind us." You're really also not understanding the scope of hyper space, or how long it would take to reconnoiter with everyone for that sandwich maneuver. We have been told this, the why was also explained, you not liking an explanation is not the same as that explanation being bad. e: Also only one ship has the tracking technology from what I understand. And not even snoke knew about the secret upgrades until this movie.
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Sep 14, 2018 21:00
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Turtlicious posted:
They have it on every ship quote:So the First Order's only tracking us from one Destroyer, the main one. So we make blow that one up?
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Sep 14, 2018 21:03
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Tunicate posted:In this movie the pursuing fleet DID hyperspace in close enough to be instantly in combat range (which the rebels then gradually pull out of using their sublight engines). It isn't a fluke, either, since it also happens in Return of the Jedi and in Rogue One. As presented in the films this is a routine action that's no big deal. That's exactly what I mean. You can't jump close enough to them that they can't simply escape with their regular engines, because their ships are faster. Jumping ahead of them would simply put you about the same distance from them as you were before. Space is huge, you really think you can sandwich a fleet with a handful of big ships? It just doesn't seem feasible to me.
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Sep 14, 2018 21:04
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Basebf555 posted:would simply put you about the same distance from them as you were before. Which, as we saw earlier in the film, is close enough to shoot at them.
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Sep 14, 2018 21:05
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The thing that bothers me about the star wars movies is how much silly minutiae for people to pick apart until the end of time. There's a reason why this thread explodes with activity pretty much only when people bring them up (or comic book movies, for similar reasons) - everyone has a pet issue about how a certain crystal works or why they don't just ____.
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Sep 14, 2018 21:06
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Tunicate posted:Which, as we saw earlier in the film, is close enough to shoot at them. That seems to be ok for thinning the heard of smaller ships, but the big cruisers can take those pot shots all day with their shields. To take out the few remaining big capital ships that the rebels have they need to get closer than that.
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Sep 14, 2018 21:09
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Tunicate posted:Which, as we saw earlier in the film, is close enough to shoot at them. They shot down every ship that ran out of fuel. They settled for slowly crushing the rebels' hopes and dreams, since they knew that they had more fuel and firepower. Also because Evil.
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Sep 14, 2018 21:09
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yeah I eat rear end posted:The thing that bothers me about the star wars movies is how much silly minutiae for people to pick apart until the end of time. There's a reason why this thread explodes with activity pretty much only when people bring them up (or comic book movies, for similar reasons) - everyone has a pet issue about how a certain crystal works or why they don't just ____.
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Sep 14, 2018 22:21
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As sci-fi chases go, I like the opening season of Battlestar Galactica. Where the Cylons just show up relentlessly every half hour, and their biggest problem is that no-one can sleep through a hyperspace jump.
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Sep 14, 2018 22:33
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