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Scruffpuff posted:This is a good post. I always noticed this but I think it was subconscious - wasn't until I read this that the dichotomy of their answers fully realized in my brain. They really do get pissy when the question is about something concrete like "making the game we paid for" and it gets dreamy and excited when the question is "fluff theorycrafting bullshit." Q: Can you start to pay off the technical debt? A: You know it really annoys me when... Q: Can you increase the technical debt? A: Absolutely. code:
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Sep 16, 2018 04:33
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Hobold posted:CIG never told Illfonic that they shrunk everything way down to make the maps larger, so the scale of everything was way off. An Illfonic marine, might be a 50ft giant to a CIG one. But you can. Correcting the scale of actual assets is trivial and automatable. It is not going to be >$500k of work to correct the scale of the game-play systems. It might be tedious and error prone, but it is certainly something you can do. To me, it is always just a weak hand waving excuse to the fact that integrating any third party complete game into another complete game was going to be impossible. I don't know. Sillybones fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Sep 16, 2018 |
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Sep 16, 2018 04:40
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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WelcomeLastingAzurewingedmagpie-mobile.mp4
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Sep 16, 2018 04:49
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Sillybones posted:OCS = Old Commando School... Commander? drat, that reminds me. We haven’t heard from old school commando in a while. Hope he’s ok.
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Sep 16, 2018 05:00
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The Titanic posted:He was upstaged by Double Damage, and when their poo poo tier game looks like it kicks Star Citizen's rear end, and they go after him directly in their marketing, and they also show over an hour of somebody actually playing the game; and people loving love it, he's going to up the score. I completely agree with this. I wrote the same on discord just last night: quote:I think right now Chris is mad at everyone and everything and is operating under “I’ll show YOU!” logic. I think he’s in a different state of mind than in prior years. All you bastards are going to pay for doubting him! And you believers who didn’t pay for his paywalled livestream are going to pay, too, for not believing enough! If CitCon 2018 had a theme, it’s The Imperium Strikes Back. colonelwest posted:What (besides land/space condo sales) are they even going to have to show for themselves at Citcon? The reality of the broken mess they have after 7 years and 200 million dollars is so noxious that even the most crazy sizzle reel can't really generate hype except among the most hopeless whales. Brace yourself for the blinding Hollywood star power of Squadron 42 — this time, with gameplay for a change. And maybe even a year late roadmap with a brand new, totally serious this time release date! (Maybe?)
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Sep 16, 2018 05:17
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The Titanic posted:This is your reminder to keep your video capture software handy and ready. Citizen Con will be featuring Chris Roberts playing with some of the backers who show up. They are going to have people play the game... live....? Oh my, i hope so. Its too good to be true!
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Sep 16, 2018 05:18
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Agony Aunt posted:They are going to have people play the game... live....? WITH CHRIS HIMSELF PLAYING!
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Sep 16, 2018 05:39
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Sillybones posted:But you can. Correcting the scale of actual assets is trivial and automatable. It is not going to be >$500k of work to correct the scale of the game-play systems. It might be tedious and error prone, but it is certainly something you can do. To me, it is always just a weak hand waving excuse to the fact that integrating any third party complete game into another complete game was going to be impossible. stuff the player can't move and doesn't move, sure, but once it's interactive like a ship or door, all of it goes out the window as those items have weight properties and scaling those things is a bitch
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Sep 16, 2018 05:46
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Sandweed posted:I want Battletech and Banner Saga. Crowdfunding video games is bad, please don't do it.
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Sep 16, 2018 05:47
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Hobold posted:CIG never told Illfonic that they shrunk everything way down to make the maps larger,
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Sep 16, 2018 06:38
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stingtwo posted:stuff the player can't move and doesn't move, sure, but once it's interactive like a ship or door, all of it goes out the window as those items have weight properties and scaling those things is a bitch This is what I meant, but had forgotten. Can't just grab a value an rescale everything without breaking poo poo. I'm not a programmer or dev, but its been said here many times. Complications posted:Oh. Oh god. Oh sweet lord, no wonder. It makes so much sense now. No wonder everything's hosed up, tiny placement errors which are nigh unnoticeable at sane ranges explains so drat much. And what must've happened to that poor physics engine? Egad. Yup. A lot of that was really highlighted with the whole clipping through solid walls thing. Everything is so small, and moves soo quickly at that scale, the engine can't keep precise enough track where things are, and will end up with players being inside objects due to speed/rounding errors, and you get ejected. Thus wall phasing, everything vibrating, and likely why the NPC pathing is all kinds of hosed up. Likely behind the whole bug of people being able to shove NPCs around before they were made static objects.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:07
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Chris will not play his game, the current live pu/ptu, at citconned. If anything, he will play a standalone, client based enclosed level, perhaps with lan connectivity only. However, I would pay good money to watch a stream of Chris legit logging into the current ptu that any backer can play and playing an hours long session with whatever rando backers happen to be online, perhaps while also on a public discord voice channel. Promote the hell out of that poo poo, Playtime For the Chairman. Backers log in to help crew Chris' idris. That'd make a better weekly show than the drivel they pump out now.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:07
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G0RF posted:I completely agree with this. I wrote the same on discord just last night: Slightly pessimistic opinion here, but ive got a feeling it will be a cobbled-together-at-the-last minute shitshow. There will be less than an hour of anything interesting and new in total, and at any moment the wheels might literally come off THAT. There will be a new partnership with some kind of space dildo company which will be discussed for over 2 hours, and FOIP will take up another 2 hours.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:10
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Oh Chris is definitely playing his magnum opus at Citcon, I heard using a full HOTASS setup and not some console pleb junk like an Xbox controller.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:25
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Krycek posted:However, I would pay good money to watch a stream of Chris legit logging into the current ptu that any backer can play and playing an hours long session with whatever rando backers happen to be online, perhaps while also on a public discord voice channel. Promote the hell out of that poo poo, Playtime For the Chairman. Backers log in to help crew Chris' idris. That'd make a better weekly show than the drivel they pump out now. Seriously this is a good idea and I don't know why even the broken Citizens on reddit would oppose this*. Don't loving set up a studio and try to direct Sandi and some random person or show Crobblers thumb face weekly. Just have them play the state of "the game" instead on a live stream with the community and then maybe edit it for the ATV stupid episodes while possibly adding cutaway segments for new features. * Well the ones that hang on to the hope that Chris is a genious and there is a secret very advanced build might not like this showing how much of a clumsy player and actual idiot Chris is, while live streaming the mess of their tech demo. Also Crobbear's babbling in such dosages might, just might, prove very annoying. All of Sandi's alts won't like that idea either.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:39
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Hobold posted:This is what I meant, but had forgotten. Can't just grab a value an rescale everything without breaking poo poo. I'm not a programmer or dev, but its been said here many times. But again, you can. Maths works the same at any scale. As long as you scale everything the same, the result is the same. The difficulty comes in making sure you scale everything without missing anything and don't scale things that should stay fixed. It would be an awful job, but again, it is doable. Much more doable than writing it all over again. And the clipping point highlights this. The maths works the same regardless of the scale. For the maths for games, the only thing that matters is the relative scale of things. If you make the scale value 1 = 1 metre or you make 1 = 1 kilometre, your physics still has the same level of error due to that nature of floating point representations.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:48
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Sillybones posted:But again, you can. Maths works the same at any scale. As long as you scale everything the same, the result is the same. The difficulty comes in making sure you scale everything without missing anything and don't scale things that should stay fixed. It would be an awful job, but again, it is doable. Much more doable than writing it all over again.  If you say so. Few people here have said the opposite. I'm staying out of it because I don't have the experience. Was just trying to fill in the blanks for someone.
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Sep 16, 2018 07:53
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Sillybones posted:But again, you can. Maths works the same at any scale. As long as you scale everything the same, the result is the same. The difficulty comes in making sure you scale everything without missing anything and don't scale things that should stay fixed. It would be an awful job, but again, it is doable. Much more doable than writing it all over again. Floating-point precision is not the same at any scale. 3rd party physics engines are not equally stable at all scales. They're not making the scale 1= 1 metre or 1 = 1 kilometre - they're using actually smaller numbers. Numerical inaccuracy is not the same when working with numbers divided by orders of magnitude. If you doubt me, download Unity, CryEngine or UE yourself and set up the same scene with physics using regular numbers and then with everything divided by 100, 1000, 10000, etc. You will see the difference.
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Sep 16, 2018 08:00
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Beet Wagon posted:drat, that reminds me. We haven’t heard from old school commando in a while. Hope he’s ok. Just post that Derek has been doxxing again and you'll have OSC in there in no time.
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Sep 16, 2018 08:03
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Gravity_Storm posted:Slightly pessimistic opinion here, but ive got a feeling it will be a cobbled-together-at-the-last minute shitshow. There will be less than an hour of anything interesting and new in total, and at any moment the wheels might literally come off THAT. Sadly, I think this is about right. They learned last year you can just babble endlessly about rudimentary stuff and the citizens lap it up because, even though every single one of them knows everything about game development, learning how FOR loops work in BASIC confirms for them CIG is doing what no-one else can. Remember how exciting it was when we saw that model walk over uneven terrain? Amazing. Remember the graphics guy droning on about all the stuff Cryengine does to render a scene? Electric. Me? I just can't wait for the lore sections. Gently carress me, actually devoting hours of human thought to working out the language and culture of giant space turtles in Star Citizen is the single biggest waste of everything in the history of the universe. Nothing has ever been as pointless or worthless as the lore of Star Citizen and we're getting an hour or two of lectures on it.
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Sep 16, 2018 08:18
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PederP posted:Floating-point precision is not the same at any scale. 3rd party physics engines are not equally stable at all scales. They're not making the scale 1= 1 metre or 1 = 1 kilometre - they're using actually smaller numbers. Numerical inaccuracy is not the same when working with numbers divided by orders of magnitude. Floating point precision should be the same at any scale. That is the point of its namesake 'floating-point'. It is only when you mix numbers at these different orders of magnitude that you should expect it to break down. Particular implementations, I don't know. I guess there could be specific assumptions in mind when it is designed. There is no reason you could not change them.
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Sep 16, 2018 08:18
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Sillybones posted:Floating point precision should be the same at any scale. That is the point of its namesake 'floating-point'. It is only when you mix numbers at these different orders of magnitude that you should expect it to break down. Besides what PederP said, there are all sorts of issues that will arise from shrinking the objects while keeping the world the same size, which is what we guess is happening. Floating point precision errors will be much more significant since the player/ships are so tiny in comparison with the whole map. Besides, this is Cryengine we're talking about, there has to be all sorts of hardcoded hacks in there to handle very small / very fast / very slow objects in special ways (which is fine, everybody does it). But if suddenly the scale is hosed up then who knows what will happen and how the renderer/physics engine/etc. will react. trucutru fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Sep 16, 2018 |
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Sep 16, 2018 08:20
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Re: Star Marine scale issuesquote:The worst example of wasted effort was discovered towards the end of Illfonic’s time on Star Marine: CIG found that the entire map was built to the wrong scale. Bonus quote I’d missed in earlier readings; quote:The PAX demo makes it look like there’s a scripted mission, but that was staged to make it more interesting to watch. “If it was a normal versus FPS then no one would think it was cool,” my source explained.“That was just for PAX. They talked about scripted missions but not at the first release. The first release was just 'Here are some levels and here's the FPS gameplay within Star Citizen'.”
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Sep 16, 2018 08:21
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Some excellent cats right here 
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Sep 16, 2018 08:26
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Welcome to the
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G0RF posted:Re: Star Marine scale issues Thank you. That actually explains it all. Chinese whispers comes to and end.
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Sep 16, 2018 08:33
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G0RF posted:Re: Star Marine scale issues And yet, the narrative for the last two years has been Illfonic was the ones to blame for this clusterfuck.
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Sep 16, 2018 09:21
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Sillybones posted:But again, you can. Maths works the same at any scale. As long as you scale everything the same, the result is the same. The difficulty comes in making sure you scale everything without missing anything and don't scale things that should stay fixed. It would be an awful job, but again, it is doable. Much more doable than writing it all over again. I'm no expert, I can imagine issues when: - The area and volume scales, absolute forces being applied suddenly are way too much (I assume they're set absolutely by the devs/artists/not sure) - Same for acceleration/deceleration of objects, inertia/friction - You have stuff not behaving quite according to the laws of physics for artistic reasons (ie make that pixel green) - Collision detection, if say some absolute leeway has been set perhaps per object, this may change at a different scale - Complications on how textures/maps are applied with an assumption of a certain game scale, worse if they were built externally - Using 3rd party plugins which assume the engine hasn't been screwed around with - You're using CryEngine
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Sep 16, 2018 09:55
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Drunk Theory posted:And yet, the narrative for the last two years has been Illfonic was the ones to blame for this clusterfuck. CIG can do no wrong.
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Sep 16, 2018 09:56
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Sarsapariller posted:
One of the least sensible scenes in any of the Star Trek movies 
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Sep 16, 2018 10:07
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Agony Aunt posted:They are going to have people play the game... live....? So will it be: 1 - Over a 1000Gbs LAN, with all players and servers close by? or 2 - Over the relatively slow, high-latency internet, like it is in the real world? 
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Sep 16, 2018 10:13
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Sep 16, 2018 10:16
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 Some WarZ level of fidelity there.
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Sep 16, 2018 10:28
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Drunk Theory posted:And yet, the narrative for the last two years has been Illfonic was the ones to blame for this clusterfuck. The narrative is "Illfonic built up assets at the wrong scale". And that is correct. All that is missing from that quote is "CIG asked Illfonic to.." which of course gives it a different perspective.
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Sep 16, 2018 11:42
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Sillybones posted:But again, you can. Maths works the same at any scale. As long as you scale everything the same, the result is the same. The difficulty comes in making sure you scale everything without missing anything and don't scale things that should stay fixed. It would be an awful job, but again, it is doable. Much more doable than writing it all over again. What if there's nonlinear processes in the physics engine, for instance? Say some functions that behave oddly when the input is out of certain bounds? Then there's a good chance that the output isn't just a scaled-down version of what you expected. If that happens a lot and is very low-level in the engine it would take a lot work to debug.
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Sep 16, 2018 11:44
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Nyast posted:The narrative is "Illfonic built up assets at the wrong scale". And that is correct. All that is missing from that quote is "CIG asked Illfonic to.." which of course gives it a different perspective. But it is so inaccurate. Illfonic build assets that were not flexible enough for CIG's pipeline and authored animations that were for an old version of the character rigs. The scale of the assets is incidental.
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Sep 16, 2018 12:11
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Lord Stimperor posted:What if there's nonlinear processes in the physics engine, for instance? Say some functions that behave oddly when the input is out of certain bounds? Then there's a good chance that the output isn't just a scaled-down version of what you expected. If that happens a lot and is very low-level in the engine it would take a lot work to debug. Maybe Crobberts shrunk the whole stuff so much, that unwanted quantum effects (which are totally implemented in this fidelity engine) are causing all those bugs? Like what CPU makers experience? Truly groundbreaking.
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Sep 16, 2018 12:17
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The article sounds like Illfonic built items at the wrong dimensions, which is different than being at the wrong scale. Scaling a door down from 3'x8' to 3"x8" is no big deal if everything else around changes proportionally, but if doors all need to be 3.5"x7.5", then you need to go all the way back and redo the level itself because now there are gaps/overlaps.
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Sep 16, 2018 13:32
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Sillybones posted:Floating point precision should be the same at any scale. That is the point of its namesake 'floating-point'. It is only when you mix numbers at these different orders of magnitude that you should expect it to break down. It isn’t, go check up arbitrary prcision, then consider that the relationship of mass, volume and density is not a linear relationship. Again, you can give it a go yourself, but the important thing here is that scaling works in math, but not physics, and these are physical simulations. Arbitrary precision comes in when you have to round up the position of your scaled item, and it starts to jitter and pull itself apart.
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Sep 16, 2018 13:33
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tuo posted:Maybe Crobberts shrunk the whole stuff so much, that unwanted quantum effects (which are totally implemented in this fidelity engine) are causing all those bugs? Like what CPU makers experience? Star Citizen - Held Back by Quantum Tunneling
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Sep 16, 2018 13:33
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Sillybones posted:But it is so inaccurate. Illfonic build assets that were not flexible enough for CIG's pipeline and authored animations that were for an old version of the character rigs. The scale of the assets is incidental. CiG didn’t have a pipeline at the time, and their model was to outsource everything. They ended up with poo poo from everyone, but no way to tie it together. This is why they produced bugger-all for the best part of teo years. Also, what’s with this new fashion for questioning the basis? This is like the third time we’ve had the ‘this is just goon talk’. If anything we demonstrated more good faith and accuracy than RSI.
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Sep 16, 2018 13:39
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