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I've used the cantabrian circle to great effect on tribal raids, as well as on outpost and other player-raids on the world map. I've made a new prison labor game, and I am loving it so far. It's so good to have a swarm of serfs working the fields and doing all the skill-less crafting jobs like slag smelting, stone cutting and operating the washing machine. I also have them working the kitchens, and for the most part all my colonists do is handle raids, the skilled crafting, hunting and cleaning the areas that the prisoners aren't allowed into. I will try out the progress renderer tomorrow and see if I can upload a screenshot of the whole messy setup. I too have tried the "set piece" approach to defense, and have had the same problems as you guys have had. In previous games, I had a warg swarm to thin the enemies numbers, but I haven't been able to get a breeding pair yet, so off to do more trading to see what can be done about that, I suppose.
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Sep 16, 2018 17:31
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The addition of the multiple groups raid I think should help a lot, all raids should work that way IMO because it gives you chance to take them on either by sending out parties to blow up one squad before they attack, or it staggers the attack some. The game just doesn't really work super well when you just have massive piles of dudes mashing together. Though I do like mods that add mannable gun turrets especially because you can give the operators personal shields.
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Sep 17, 2018 14:50
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Mannable turrets definitely make it easier to defend against large raids without having to resort to blatant cheese, as does impassable shootable cover like embrasures and buildable obstacles like barbed wire and moats, and less-lovely autoturrets, all of which are available with mods they're definitely all OP compared to vanilla defenses but considering that literally the only way to survive mid-to-late game with vanilla defenses is to build ridiculous killboxes, is that really a bad thing?
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Sep 17, 2018 15:25
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Just turn down the difficulty setting. It'll take years longer for the ridiculously huge raids to show up.
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Sep 17, 2018 17:18
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Facebook Aunt posted:Just turn down the difficulty setting. It'll take years longer for the ridiculously huge raids to show up. Difficulty also affects disease frequency, trade price, colonist mood, and (apparently) crop yield. If it just impacted raid size, I would've done that ages ago.
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Sep 17, 2018 17:28
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Facebook Aunt posted:Just turn down the difficulty setting. It'll take years longer for the ridiculously huge raids to show up. It's not a question of how many years, after a point. My colony is roughly 10 years old. On no difficulty setting will that make the slightest difference with vanilla options. You'll still reach a point where the only way out is a cheesy defense, which to me at least ruins the "story" aspect of the game because what? "Day 643. The pirates file through our labyrinth dutifully for the 94th time. Presumably after the 93rd, they should have taken the hint when none returned to their settlement. Yet, here they are. Perhaps they live in a perpetual toxic fallout and have all suffered brain damage? There is no sense in it."
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Sep 17, 2018 17:29
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My problem isn't so much regular raids as it is mechanoids (gently caress you, centipedes) and drop pod raids into the center of my base. Drop pods are definitely the worst since you have no easy way of defending against them short of being in a mountain and then you have to deal with infestations.
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Sep 17, 2018 17:34
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Party Plane Jones posted:My problem isn't so much regular raids as it is mechanoids (gently caress you, centipedes) and drop pod raids into the center of my base. Drop pods are definitely the worst since you have no easy way of defending against them short of being in a mountain and then you have to deal with infestations. Maybe it is colony size (I'm at 31), but I recently had a drop pod raid and it was utterly trivial compared to raids from the edge of the map, ship parts, or infested fragments. I didn't even bother armoring people. I just drafted everyone in groups of 4-5 pawns, and swept the streets and alleys. The last three got stuck in a building, and we cleaned up with no downs, and only a few scrapes and bruises. I think the "Drops on top of you" events were significantly nerfed, or the presence of the "Proper Shotguns" mod is properly trivializing CQB. Seriously, I have a fully automatic shotgun and anyone downrange of it isn't tripping over themselves to run away? MY IMMERSION 
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Sep 17, 2018 17:39
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Party Plane Jones posted:My problem isn't so much regular raids as it is mechanoids (gently caress you, centipedes) and drop pod raids into the center of my base. Drop pods are definitely the worst since you have no easy way of defending against them short of being in a mountain and then you have to deal with infestations. There's a mod on the workshop that adds air defenses. No idea what the balance is like, though.
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Sep 17, 2018 17:50
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Drop pod mechanoids. 
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Sep 17, 2018 18:00
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Party Plane Jones posted:My problem isn't so much regular raids as it is mechanoids (gently caress you, centipedes) and drop pod raids into the center of my base. Drop pods are definitely the worst since you have no easy way of defending against them short of being in a mountain and then you have to deal with infestations. I had problems with mechanoids too. Melee colonists solve them. My colonists are about half-and-half melee and ranged. Drop pod raids are great, interesting, and usually smaller than a regular raid.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:01
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Drop pod raids are great, interesting, and usually smaller than a regular raid. I'm running some of the various faction mods and the Federation faction has mechanoids that drop pod, shoot laser blasts, and explode like boomalopes when you kill them. It's sort of hell.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:19
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The auto-shotgun is now in the vanilla, btw. My biggest beef are the "better" turrets introduced by the B19. They are given as more robust defense, but they become a huge resource sink since their firing rate is weak, HP is ridiculously low and the accuracy is laughable. On several occasions my two autocannons and one slug thrower were overcome by the loving tribals by simply in groups of three to five doing enough damage with sticks and poo poo to cause them all to self-destruct before they could reliably down handful of low-tech enemies. So you need to babysit them, which causes the enemy to focusfire on your colonists with their magical bows which out-range most rifles and are more accurate than sniper rifle. Also, the minefield has restrictions now on adjacent placement, but the trigger only works if someone walks right over. And everyone "learns" the placings magically after the first raid. Not to mention that the artillery shell isn't powerful enough to reliably down a human enemy, not to mention scrabs or mechanoids. Der Kyhe fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Sep 17, 2018 |
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Sep 17, 2018 18:33
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Party Plane Jones posted:I'm running some of the various faction mods and the Federation faction has mechanoids that drop pod, shoot laser blasts, and explode like boomalopes when you kill them. Is now a bad time to say that the drop pod raid I was referencing in my post was a feddy raid? If you're running the rest of the Rimsenal packs, think about using jumpsuits for heat resistance, and melee is your friend. Like mechanoids, the federation is weak to blunt attacks, but if you're at the plasteel longswords point, those work just as well. As far as the exploding ones, there are suicide bombers and the big plasma caster bions to worry about. The bions' weapons have very slow projectiles, so if you see hovering green orbs, move. The suicide bombers are a bigger problem, but they also don't come wearing any armor. Just shoot them from a distance. Everything else is your standard cover-and-shoot enemy. Cup Runneth Over posted:I had problems with mechanoids too. Melee colonists solve them. My colonists are about half-and-half melee and ranged. And for god's sake train melee infantry. In the best case they'll go ham on unprepared enemies with their swords. At worst, they'll soak a suicide bomber or absorb bullets that would otherwise be aimed at your ranged DPS.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:36
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melee being a hard counter to turrets is now pretty problematic for me from a planning perspective. i'm still not really able to figure out a good way to automate defenses like i did in previous versions, even with a somewhat unlimited budget. i tried adding perpendicular defenses but it really doesn't change the equation that much. on the up side, getting wounded is no longer quite as severe as it used to be since infections don't occur with every goddamned bleeding wound ever and a good doctor can beat a normal infection with herbal medication just fine, but you still lose a ton of time to fighting and it's the single biggest time and resource sink i have in my current game. have to think about it more.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:38
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Coolguye posted:melee being a hard counter to turrets is now pretty problematic for me from a planning perspective. i'm still not really able to figure out a good way to automate defenses like i did in previous versions, even with a somewhat unlimited budget. i tried adding perpendicular defenses but it really doesn't change the equation that much. Armor, too. The armor change make it so that "glancing" blows only ever cause crush damage, so bullets that hit above half your armor rating but don't exceed it don't cause bleeding unless said damage rips off a limb. My pawns have a MUCH higher survival rate from this fact alone.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:41
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speaking of, question: what has the overall experience been with spike traps so far? what percentage of the time do they disable or kill someone who sets one off, and are they impeded by shield belts?
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Sep 17, 2018 18:46
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Coolguye posted:speaking of, question: what has the overall experience been with spike traps so far? what percentage of the time do they disable or kill someone who sets one off, and are they impeded by shield belts? They are seriously nerfed by the B19 change requiring you to rebuild them after each use. The cost might become negligible, but you have to dedicate 1-2 deep drills to pump out suitable rocks (also a change in the B19). They also are somewhat underwhelming and do not reliably disable animals nor humans, and basically do nothing against the mechanoids or scrabs.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:58
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nuts. i'm aware of the rebuild nerf, but honestly at this point i am considering defensive structures that mean less expenditure, rather than durable automated defenses. the latter dream just seems dead right now. i had a trap idea in my head but it basically relies on spike traps reliably disabling melee attackers in one go. if spike traps can't do that then they're no dice right off the bat.
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Sep 17, 2018 19:05
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Warmachine posted:
Out of interest is this map normal sized or bigger? It looks bigger but I might be imagining it.
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Sep 17, 2018 19:10
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Stone spike traps are okay. It’s not a one hit guaranteed ko at all though, but they’re good for slowing down and seriously injuring those that survive
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Sep 17, 2018 19:56
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I roofed over all the major pathways in my colony during a long toxic fallout, and months later saw another side benefit to this - namely, if you live in a cold region, roofed walkways save you a shitload of effort in shoveling snow.
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Sep 17, 2018 20:07
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Mister Bates posted:I roofed over all the major pathways in my colony during a long toxic fallout, and months later saw another side benefit to this - namely, if you live in a cold region, roofed walkways save you a shitload of effort in shoveling snow. There is the downside that some colonist might take a hit on never being under the open sky but that usually is mitigated by them doing random stuff outside your colony.
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Sep 17, 2018 20:11
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Also, if you cram enough sculptures everywhere you can get a +15 from the beautiful environment which usually counteracts the cabin fever.
Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 17, 2018 |
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Sep 17, 2018 20:19
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Coolguye posted:nuts. i'm aware of the rebuild nerf, but honestly at this point i am considering defensive structures that mean less expenditure, rather than durable automated defenses. the latter dream just seems dead right now. Spike stone block traps need 2-3 hits to reliably disable a pawn. One will sometimes work, but its not something you can count on. I use traps pretty liberally and I try to add another layer to the trap maze every year. As long as I can keep that up they work tolerably well. Well enough that I only build a handful of turrets most games. What turret/trap mods are goons using? When I went looking for mods to roll back the b19 nerfs I didn't find any that did that specifically and only 1 or 2 mods that had even been updated to B19.
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Sep 17, 2018 22:07
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LLSix posted:What turret/trap mods are goons using? When I went looking for mods to roll back the b19 nerfs I didn't find any that did that specifically and only 1 or 2 mods that had even been updated to B19. Use Rimsenal security pack, most of the emplacements aren't turrets but stationary guns for colonists to use. On top of that add More Vanilla Turrets. Both are pretty balanced plus stuff like the shredder turret (in More VT) is invaluable for some areas since when they die they don't explode.
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Sep 17, 2018 22:54
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One nice change I like is that water tiles degrade whatever you put on them. So I'm currently throwing all my corpses in a peat bog 
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Sep 18, 2018 03:12
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OwlFancier posted:One nice change I like is that water tiles degrade whatever you put on them. Careful, that's how you get Swamp Things
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Sep 18, 2018 03:16
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Archenteron posted:Careful, that's how you get Swamp Things Mate if swamp thing shows up and fights off the giant spiders, deep ones, dark young, and doesn't fall in the cthonian pit on the way here, he can join the drat colony for all I care.
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Sep 18, 2018 03:26
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OwlFancier posted:Mate if swamp thing shows up and fights off the giant spiders, deep ones, dark young, and doesn't fall in the cthonian pit on the way here, he can join the drat colony for all I care. Kill swamp thing, throw HIM into the swamp corpse pile and see what comes out next.
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Sep 18, 2018 04:39
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Yeah a swamp thing farm/corpse pit could be just the defensive solution we've been looking for
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Sep 18, 2018 04:45
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Keeshhound posted:Kill swamp thing, throw HIM into the swamp corpse pile and see what comes out next. In this hypothetical, my guess would be Worms
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Sep 18, 2018 05:26
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Archenteron posted:In this hypothetical, my guess would be Worms A concrete donkey would do wonders against mega-raids, too.
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Sep 18, 2018 07:09
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Der Kyhe posted:They are seriously nerfed by the B19 change requiring you to rebuild them after each use. The cost might become negligible, but you have to dedicate 1-2 deep drills to pump out suitable rocks (also a change in the B19). You don't want to build traps out of stone anymore. Your optimal trap choices are either ridiculously long corridors full of wood traps or a lesser number of steel traps. When they reworked how traps work to not be resettable, they hosed with the damage values enormously. Stone traps used to be the most efficient damage, but now they're barely better than wooden ones(45 damage for wood vs 50-65 depending on hardness of stone) and they take a loving eternity to build; it takes nearly ten times as much work to build a single granite trap as a single wood trap(323 work for the granite vs 38 for the wood) in exchange for +20 damage, which adds up to an insane amount of pawn hours to reset your traps after a big raid. The real money traps are now steel traps, which are relatively fast to build(54 work) while doing a whopping 100 damage. They will reliably and horribly maim anything that happens to touch them except ridiculously armored targets like power armored raiders or centipedes. A steel trap can nearly take a leg off an elephant or a rhino in one go and will instantly obliterate whatever part of an unarmored human happens to touch it. Oddly, plasteel traps only do 110 damage despite the increased rarity of plasteel and the one-shot nature of traps. Replacing steel traps all the time can be very spendy, but a steel trap corridor is extremely lethal. I'm not sure if it's indefinitely sustainable on a large scale, though. Maybe if you're mining out additional tiles or you're operating caravan trade routes constantly. Kanos fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Sep 18, 2018 |
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Sep 18, 2018 11:07
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I stick with wooden traps for now because at least the material's renewable. I think they might come up a bit short for 20 man raids, but at the least they're effective in dealing with smaller groups as well as mad animals etc. The weird thing about not being able to have traps adjacent to each other anymore is that, you know when half the raiders panic at seeing their pals get turned into shish kebobs and escape and take with them the knowledge of those traps? Well, you can cancel the rebuilds and set up new traps in the gaps where the old ones weren't. So the next time these idiots turn up, they're all "yeah this is where they put the traps last time... oh, it's not here? OK, cool, let's just keep moving... *THUNK* AH poo poo THEY MOVED THEM" I don't think you have to deconstruct the traps they didn't see, though.
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Sep 18, 2018 12:34
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I've had a lot of success with the steel traps. They've killed scythers and raiders who walk over them. With a 13 year colony using them an awful lot I've found they're probably better than the vanilla turrets. If the traps are set in the home area they'll get rebuilt automatically. I dont know if tynan lowered the accident rate with them, but I've only had 2 accidents and one was because I set a deep drill work spot on top of a trap
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Sep 18, 2018 14:06
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I haven't gotten a chance to play since the latest update. I noticed the patch notes stated leather is no longer as animal specific. Does this mean I can no longer build Yorkshire terrier couches?
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Sep 18, 2018 15:29
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No, but you can specifically make dog leather couches.
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Sep 18, 2018 15:34
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Yeah, Traps are still pretty lethal to raiders and mechaniods, but they don't scale to huge mobs (which makes sense). In my B19 mid-game map the traps are there to take out the first few and hit the morale, melee and ranged pawns are still doing most of the damage. I think a lot of the complaints about traps/turrets are coming from people who want to survive raids without putting pawns at risk, but that is the explicit purpose of raids. The game is far more interesting when your pawns are not in protective bubbles. Melee Pawns and Pawns with guns give you the biggest reward because you need to take the risk with a valuable resource.
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Sep 18, 2018 15:58
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actual steel traps do 100 damage? holy poo poo. the reason I'm asking is because I have half of an idea on making a turret supported by a spike trap checkerboard that exists just to scare ranged pawns into positions of cover (their cover will have an incendiary IED on it). the problem then becomes melee dudes, who will charge forward as they do. a 3x3 firebreak surrounding the turret supported by spike traps in a checkerboard would not be that spendy (you're looking at 5 spike traps total) and would constitute a real chunk of the melee involved in a wave. if you can ensure that the melee dudes will die when hit, you have half of an expectation that a ranged dude will take cover and set the area on fire. just a thought at this point, i still haven't implemented this.
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Sep 18, 2018 16:27
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