|
CeallaSo posted:I mean, it makes sense that you would need a crutch in the beginning, doesn't it? You haven't even really settled into your role; the adventure you're on is as much a part of your training as everything that came before it. How are you getting a +4 damage on your attacks? A +4 damage modifier shouldn't be possible in 5e until your first ASI at the earliest without the help of class features like Fighting Style: Dueling. The real problem, though, is that punching people is much, much worse than two-handing for 1d8 damage. At level 1, a fighter with a two-hander does 2d6+3 (10), a monk throwing punches does 2d4+6 (11), and a monk with a spear does 2d8+6 (15). The gap only widens when you flurry, since getting a third hit in is an extra 50% damage, and the deficit grows from 4 points to 6 points. Monks get a lot of their damage from landing a large volume of hits, so losing damage per hit hurts them even more than it would for, say, a paladin or barbarian who only needs to land one big swing.
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 20:07 |
|
|
Toshimo posted:Monks get dex bonus applied to off-hand damage? Yes, why wouldn't they? CeallaSo posted:I mean, it makes sense that you would need a crutch in the beginning, doesn't it? You haven't even really settled into your role; the adventure you're on is as much a part of your training as everything that came before it. The problem is when everyone starts getting magic weapons, which are very significant: a simple +1 on the attack and damage rolls translates to ~17% more round to round damage output. Even if you consign yourself as a support martial, you *want* to hit more often to land those Stunning Strikes. And then when you actually factor in the other guys doing simple optimization and making use of their class abilities...
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:11
|
|
|
CeallaSo posted:I mean, it makes sense that you would need a crutch in the beginning, doesn't it? You haven't even really settled into your role; the adventure you're on is as much a part of your training as everything that came before it. "It makes sense" is a terrible argument for class balance issues such as these. You can "make sense" of anything, as the fluff is ours to define. (Well, the designer's. You know what I mean.) And by that argument we can also say that it "makes sense" for spellcasters to be stuck with cantrips and don't learn any actual leveled spells until such a time where a Monk's damage would improve to 1d6. That's at level 5, by the way. Finally, let's not forget that you're comparing the damage rolls of a special class feature with anybody at all who picks up a weapon and has a decent Str. Your example of the "Fighter" uses no special Fighter ability at all, it's purely the equipment and the stat. Which contrasts with the Monk's core defining feature, and still does good. Plus the Fighter also has better HP, AC, and can use some pretty good magic weapons later on. And the Fighter has actual class abilities on top too. (Fighting Style means the Fighter's average damage is 12.5) I love the idea of the Monk. But man does 5e not make them shine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:21
|
|
|
Double-post, my shame is great.Conspiratiorist posted:Yes, why wouldn't they? Well... no, Monks don't add their Dex to an off-hand attack. Technically. But their bonus action attack with Martial Arts is not a dual wielding off-hand attack. It's just an additional attack. Yes, even if could describe it as a strike with your other arm, because that doesn't matter for Martial Arts. It's just an extra attack. And the rule which says you don't add Dex to dual wielding doesn't apply here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:25
|
|
|
On that topic, reminder that Quarterstaff + Polearm Master + Dueling Fighting Style does 1d6+1d4+10 at level 1 (level 2 for Paladins and Rangers), with 18 AC from equipping a shield.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:29
|
|
|
Sage Genesis posted:"It makes sense" is a terrible argument for class balance issues such as these. You can "make sense" of anything, as the fluff is ours to define. (Well, the designer's. You know what I mean.) Kensai monks do use weapons quite a bit though. Also any monk can always use magic monk weapons and use the monk dice if that's better or the weapon's normal roll is that's better. You can actually get the +1 or +2 to hit and then use the monk damage dice. Your gm can just flavor the weapons as magic bracers or brass knuckles if you want to keep the punching theme.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:31
|
|
|
It just makes sense that a wizard should be better at using a crossbow than casting spells for the first few levels. They should need that crutch until they settle into their role.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:38
|
|
|
Nitrousoxide posted:Kensai monks do use weapons quite a bit though. Also any monk can always use magic monk weapons and use the monk dice if that's better or the weapon's normal roll is that's better. You can actually get the +1 or +2 to hit and then use the monk damage dice. The argument isn't that monks can't use weapons, but that the system doesn't support exclusive punching as a good strategy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:38
|
|
|
It's weird when "punching and kicking stuff should be just as good as a weapon for a literal martial artist" is controversial. I get it, kung fu has tons of sweet-looking weapons. But you're not picking a weapon because it's cool, you're picking a weapon because 1d4 vs 1d8 is a no-brainer. (And when you get to high enough levels, no more weapons because reasons - those reasons being 'this is better for my dpr now.')
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:On that topic, reminder that Quarterstaff + Polearm Master + Dueling Fighting Style does 1d6+1d4+10 at level 1 (level 2 for Paladins and Rangers), with 18 AC from equipping a shield. Using a longbow with archery fighting style and sharpshooter gets you either 1d8+3 and +7 to your attack roll(compare to everyone else's +5) or 1d8+13 and +2 and you can stand 600 feet away from the monster(effectively near-infinite AC) and ignore cover and also still do a punching attack if you want. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Sep 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:41
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:It's weird when "punching and kicking stuff should be just as good as a weapon for a literal martial artist" is controversial. You must be misreading something because using weapons is always better, or at worse inconsequential, to your DPR as a Monk.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 18:51
|
|
|
Okay Monks.... There has been some confusion and wrong beliefs about 5e Monks, though some of it has been corrected by other people. No Monk's don't get an ability modifier to off hand attacks made as a bonus action. But most Bonus Action attacks are not off-hand from Dual Wielding. Many Bonus Action attacks don't have that restriction. Polearm Momentum's 1d4 bonus action attack adds the stat modifier, the bonus action attack from Great Weapon Mastery on a crit or kill adds the stat modifier, the bonus action attack from Monk's Martial Arts or bonus action attacks from Flurry of Blows adds the stat modifier. When a Monk attacks with a Monk Weapon they can use their Dexterity for attack and damage, and they can use their Martial Arts damage die if it is better than the weapon, this last will almost never happen until the Monk's unarmed damage goes up to d8 or d10. The bonus action attack from Martial Arts, or bonus action attacks from Flurry of Blows, must be made with an unarmed strike and not with just any Monk Weapon. During the playtest the Monk changed a lot, but the most recent part that happened before the final release the Monk unarmed damage was higher. It started at 1d6 and scaled to 1d12. Which wasn't great but was better than it is now. Before 4e Monks unarmed damage started low but scaled to the point it did a lot more than any, nonmagical, weapon. They also got more attacks when fighting unarmed to the point they got more attacks than any other class. That said their attacks didn't have any of those various magical bonuses magic weapons could get.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 19:02
|
|
|
lightrook posted:Wow, so unarmed strikes are somehow even worse than I thought. And Open Hand doesn't even require, you know, an open hand to apply any of its effects. So 5e really hates letting us punch people.  I'm sure there is some math that proves "Actually, two handing your staff then using a bonus action for 1d4 unarmed is as good/better than that Two-weapon fighter with the pair of shortswords!" but it still feels silly that your punch expert starts with the worst possible damage dice size outside of pointing out a gimmick 1d2 weapon. (Though I had also always assumed the bonus unarmed strike got DEX mod. So loving wow if not). It's not"You should punch as good/better than any weapon!". so much as "Why do I have to work my way up from WORST weapon?" that is the head scratcher to me. Section Z fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 19, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 19:10
|
|
|
The standard offhand unarmed strike that all characters have does not get the modifier. The monk martial arts one does.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 19:32
|
|
|
Unarmed Strike is 1+STR mod for all other classes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 19:35
|
|
|
There's just no reason for a dnd character attacking something on purpose to ever have a damage value lower than 1d6. I let my ranger have 1d6 for a knife and fork because it was cool and funny and fit the scene-without-her-bow well. I gave her her proficiency bonus in exchange for telling us about the previous time she fought with a knife and fork.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 19:42
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The standard offhand unarmed strike that all characters have does not get the modifier. The monk martial arts one does. Actually that never comes up. Because Unarmed Strikes are not Light Weapons and cannot be "wielded" in the off hand and you can't two weapon fighting with them. The Monk's Martial Arts/Flurry of Blows thing is kind of like off-hand attacks but not so it doesn't matter. For non Monks, or anyone else who doesn't somehow have a special Unarmed Strike, an Unarmed Strike is an attack that does 1 damage with no traits, it does add Str mod normally but you can't two weapon fight with it, it doesn't count as a 2-handed weapon for things that require that, cannot be used with Dex, etc. Tavern Brawler changes it to 1d4+Str, but doesn't let you two weapon fight with it. There might be some race options that give a natural/unarmed strike that might be light and thus usable with two-weapon fighting, and if there is then in that situation it would not add the stat modifier to the bonus action off hand strike. But yes I agree that Monks should have started out at 1d6 unarmed damage, or at least something better than 1d4. That said daggers are 1d4, as are darts, and some characters might use those, though most of those classes would probably be better off with a shortsword and some actual ranged weapon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 20:05
|
|
|
Nobody has ever used darts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 20:10
|
|
|
The Crotch posted:Nobody has ever used darts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 20:18
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:Looks like SOMEONE never cheesed out an AD&D Fighter! Darts were fantastic. To this very day, a friend of mine ever now and then goes and makes machinegun noises and we all know he's thinking about AD&D darts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:Looks like SOMEONE never cheesed out an AD&D Fighter! The ever popular newly dual class fighter mage "I could cast a 1d4 magic missile, or I could throw a dart through 3 walls and kill that ogre"
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 20:55
|
|
|
In an attempt to get out of my house more, I'm planning to start attending D&D Encounters. Any particularly good options? I assume spellcasters in general. I was thinking about maybe playing a wizard. I briefly played one when 5e first came out, but it's been a while.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 21:05
|
|
|
Also, Open Hand monk is the monk that punched and kicks more than normal? Like, what else would the extra knockdown and pushes be besides extra-hard punching. Unless whoever said that meant literally having more attack rolls than other monks, but gently caress that, 4 is enough. I just wish Avatar Monk wasn't hot garbage thanks to it's overpriced everything. The fact that they actually bothered to nerf water whip in the same game that Hexblade and full spellcasters exist in is laughable.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 21:09
|
|
|
Darts were more fun when I realized they meant plumbata and not, you know, bar darts. They suck but I did do some fun and weird poo poo by throwing them at random objects as a monk. There was once a room filled with crystal pillars that shattered into shrapnel at any sound louder than a whisper, and the whole room was trapped with alarm spells that would set them off. I did an anime toss of like, five at the pillars and walked out like an action hero from the explosion. I know this isn't unique to darts I just have a fond memory of it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 21:12
|
|
|
Malpais Legate posted:Darts were more fun when I realized they meant plumbata and not, you know, bar darts. 2e darts were basically lawn darts
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 22:28
|
|
|
Murdering stuff with lawn darts is exponentially more funny and thus better.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 22:58
|
|
|
JackMann posted:In an attempt to get out of my house more, I'm planning to start attending D&D Encounters. Any particularly good options? I assume spellcasters in general. I was thinking about maybe playing a wizard. I briefly played one when 5e first came out, but it's been a while. Paladins and Clerics are both strong, survivable, and have magic versatility. Wizards are alright but require a fair understanding of spellcasting (workings and options) to really come onto their own. Bards are good at everything except dealing damage, so that's the way to go if you want to be good at everything except dealing damage.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 23:25
|
|
|
ChaseSP posted:Murdering stuff with lawn darts is exponentially more funny and thus better. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 00:12
|
|
|
indeed I miss the deep gnome acid darts. It was a living embodiment of bad childhood safety of the 70's. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 01:07
|
|
|
Dart throwing svirfneblin were insanely overpowered just like everythinf else from the underdark in tsr days
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 01:34
|
|
|
Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:There's just no reason for a dnd character attacking something on purpose to ever have a damage value lower than 1d6. I let my ranger have 1d6 for a knife and fork because it was cool and funny and fit the scene-without-her-bow well. I gave her her proficiency bonus in exchange for telling us about the previous time she fought with a knife and fork. it's funny because in Ye Olden Dayes, everything dealt damage with a 1d6, but we've somehow actually backslid from that
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 03:22
|
|
|
Damage on SotDL is in d6 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 03:23
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:Damage on SotDL is in d6 Wrong thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:14
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Wrong thread. yeah you're in it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 05:37
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:Wrong thread. C'mon, man.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 08:19
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:C'mon, man. It's a joke.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 10:50
|
|
|
Edit: wrong thread, sorry.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 12:59
|
|
|
Ah, great. The DM's are gonna be picky about Wave. "You may bring it, but we will be handling the weapon. So it may or may not do what you request it to do." So once again, any options that could give me a fighting chance? Probably none quite like Wave would have, obviously.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:40
|
|
|
Even if monks aren't super great I like playing monk because they feel like the best monk has ever been in D&D, even if that's a low bar for a traditionally subpar class
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 20:07 |
|
|
Glagha posted:Even if monks aren't super great I like playing monk because they feel like the best monk has ever been in D&D, even if that's a low bar for a traditionally subpar class
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:50
|
|