|
Hating actual plays is a long and proud history that goes back to the creation of the Dragonlance campaign setting.
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 13:15 |
|
|
Kai Tave posted:To put it another way, GMs have historically had no trouble building up unrealistic expectations of roleplaying game grandeur in their heads only to have their aspirations dashed, even before podcasts and actual plays were a thing. I'm sure everyone here has a handful of stories about playing in a game (or attempting to run one) with lofty ambitions of being some sprawling epic campaign for the ages full of drama and excitement and comedy that was actually funny only for it all to implode about three sessions in due to various reasons. The last time I played Reign at the tabletop the GM went to the trouble of writing up all sorts of handouts and setting guides that he'd written up himself, without any prompting from anyone else I should add, he just seemed really, really into it. Game lasted two sessions and then he decided he didn't want to run it after all. Sure. It's just that - hiding all the side-of-table talk could create the expectation that if it happens the group is failing, when in fact it's essential - hiding prearrangements could create the expectation of the "perfect sandbox" which is unreasonable - group members accepting situations they normally would not in return for podcast success could lead to them being expected to accept them in regular games too
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:21
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Sure. It's just that its really weird to characterize editing as "hiding" imo. on your 3rd point, what sort of situations are you worried about people accepting?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:24
|
|
|
I always get it in my head that I've imbibed enough "how to be a good GM" articles and Actual Plays that the next game I'm going to run is to be this richly plotted drama with intrigue and drama and perforce and forthwith and all that, but within ten minutes it's down to "use sword on man? y/n"-levels of kicking down the door gameplay. On the other hand, the players always seem to think that the stuff I've been pulling out of my rear end is a lot more clever than it sounded to me when I was doing it, so maybe that's okay!
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:26
|
|
|
Serf posted:its really weird to characterize editing as "hiding" imo. Well, as I said the case I tend to think of is with Dragon Friends. I do like it very much, but Michael Hing/Freezo very much dominates the table, often taking actions out of the blue that threaten to mess up the adventure and grab attention for himself. The DM has called him out for it on the podcast once, but it's kind of continued since then, and sometimes he specifically targets other players such as stealing a box with a magic item meant for another player (he did give the other player his box in return, but the item inside was class specific and useless to them although they didn't know that). In any real group he would be an annoying, disruptive player. In DF he continues because it's funny and makes his character popular, and even means that he's been given unique points in the plot, to the extent that he had critical roles in the plot in both Seasons 3 and 4. And unlike any of the other shows/strips with disruptive players such as Game Night or Knights Of The Dinner Table, there's very little sign of complaint or objection about the disruption or any indication that this is not how to behave at an actual table.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:35
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Well, as I said the case I tend to think of is with Dragon Friends. I do like it very much, but Michael Hing/Freezo very much dominates the table, often taking actions out of the blue that threaten to mess up the adventure and grab attention for himself. The DM has called him out for it on the podcast once, but it's kind of continued since then, and sometimes he specifically targets other players such as stealing a box with a magic item meant for another player (he did give the other player his box in return, but the item inside was class specific and useless to them although they didn't know that). i haven't listened to the show, so i can't say whether you're getting this right, but this doesn't sound out of place for some of the shows i listen to. but the shows aren't pitching themselves as instruction manuals or guides on how to play. they're entertainment, and they do what is entertaining, not necessarily what is best practice. luckily most games have extensive sections of gming advice, and barring that you just gotta experience it firsthand a time or two and then you'll quickly learn what you enjoy and what you don't different shows do different things of course. like friends at the table and taz are about storytelling, while stuff like play better and one-shot are about showcasing systems. i've yet to come across one that pitches itself as a guide for how to play and behave
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:46
|
|
|
Serf posted:different shows do different things of course. like friends at the table and taz are about storytelling, while stuff like play better and one-shot are about showcasing systems. i've yet to come across one that pitches itself as a guide for how to play and behave
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:53
|
|
|
Is there a general buy/sell RPGs thread in SAMart? I see one for board games and one for MtG.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:55
|
|
|
I don't have a problem with streaming/podcasting RPGs in theory, but I've yet to find one that is better than a decent audiobook for story and character or better than a non-rpg podcast for banter. So I just listen to audiobooks and other podcasts instead. The one RPG podcast I listened to all the way was the first series of TAZ and by the end, it was such a slog - such truly awful play and so drat maudlin. All the others I've tried started out worse than TAZ and never caught my attention at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 13:57
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I think I have an idea for my game to make it easier for the players to get invested. Split sessions into explicit scenes, maybe about 2 or so per session where a scene 1. immediately relates to the players and 2. immediately gets us into the action. This might help prevent the “2 hour shopping trip-slash-villager inquisition” problem and helps us get to the meat of the game while bypassing the boring poo poo. As soon as the game starts to drag, cut the scene, narrate how some poo poo goes down, and dive straight into the action of the next scene.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:06
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:I think I have an idea for my game to make it easier for the players to get invested. Split sessions into explicit scenes, maybe about 2 or so per session where a scene 1. immediately relates to the players and 2. immediately gets us into the action. This might help prevent the “2 hour shopping trip-slash-villager inquisition” problem and helps us get to the meat of the game while bypassing the boring poo poo. As soon as the game starts to drag, cut the scene, narrate how some poo poo goes down, and dive straight into the action of the next scene. that's a perfectly fine cycle: scene 1 deals with the fallout of the last fight, informs what the next fight is going to be about, and sets up the circumstances of the fight, and scene 2 is the fight itself repeat until the players end up having significant agency within the world as the fallouts escalate
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:12
|
|
|
I don't have a problem with podcasting as long as you use it to enter the hobby or learn about a system you haven't tried but being someone whose only contact with TRPGs is listening to the loving McElroy podcast is beyond the pale for me because the 'barrier' that separates spectating from doing the actual hobby is nothing like being someone who watches the world cup on TV but doesn't play football.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:13
|
|
|
Yeah the comparison to professional sports is deadly stupid. It's more like watching some reality show about a fairly mundane job, then expecting high drama and comedy when you join that profession.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:17
|
|
|
have we discovered the mythical "listens to ap podcasts but doesn't play games" person yet? i know several people who got into stuff like the adventure zone and then asked me how they could play too. i think that people understand how low the barrier to entry is and they get in that way. i've yet to meet anyone who listens to these podcasts and isn't playing rpgs in some form or fashion or looking to get started
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:23
|
|
|
People in this thread have mentioned having acquaintaces like that? It's not my social circle, in any case.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:28
|
|
|
Serf posted:have we discovered the mythical "listens to ap podcasts but doesn't play games" person yet? i know several people who got into stuff like the adventure zone and then asked me how they could play too. i think that people understand how low the barrier to entry is and they get in that way. i've yet to meet anyone who listens to these podcasts and isn't playing rpgs in some form or fashion or looking to get started Yes, that's why I'm talking about it at all. The rpg group at my local game store picked up a guy who listened to Adventure Zone, wanted to play 5e desperately, talked a few people into switching away from pathfinder/13th age, played for like three sessions, hosed with his phone the entire time, then stopped showing up. He still posts about Adventure Zone all the time in the game store group and likes to hear stories about what happens in other people's games.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:35
|
|
|
Serf posted:i haven't listened to the show, so i can't say whether you're getting this right, but this doesn't sound out of place for some of the shows i listen to. but the shows aren't pitching themselves as instruction manuals or guides on how to play. they're entertainment, and they do what is entertaining, not necessarily what is best practice. luckily most games have extensive sections of gming advice, and barring that you just gotta experience it firsthand a time or two and then you'll quickly learn what you enjoy and what you don't That's where it gets tricky though. Like in the specific case of DF it was picked as one of the showcase groups for the Stream of Annihilation which was used to advertise D&D 5e. That shows that Wizards, at least, think that you're going to listen to it and think "hey, I want to play like that too" - not just "hey, that was fun entertainment".
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:36
|
|
|
If you're watching some high-profile, heavily produced AP like Dragon Friends or Critical Role or whatever, then yes, there's going to be a lot of editing to "remove" the table-talk that normally happens, and there's also going to be player behavior that might not be kosher if you were doing it at your own table. And the reason that happens, is because it's a heavily produced AP, because the podcast is (relatively) popular enough to have an audience that matters, and so they're crafting it as a piece of entertainment rather than as an example of play. Is it "misleading"? Sure, in the same way that video game segments of Conan O'Brien's show also don't show him flailing around except if him flailing around is the funny part. It's capitalism. They want to monetize that poo poo, and so they're polishing it up. They're are APs out there that are very raw and very unedited, where it's just people who are literally putting a mic in the middle of the table during their regular game, and you get to see all the warts like a Night's Black Agents character with maximum points in forging and sniping.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:54
|
|
|
fool_of_sound posted:Yes, that's why I'm talking about it at all. The rpg group at my local game store picked up a guy who listened to Adventure Zone, wanted to play 5e desperately, talked a few people into switching away from pathfinder/13th age, played for like three sessions, hosed with his phone the entire time, then stopped showing up. He still posts about Adventure Zone all the time in the game store group and likes to hear stories about what happens in other people's games. seems like he tried it, found that it wasn't for him. nothing wrong with that. i do hope he gives it another shot at some point because sometimes you gotta take more than one run at it. hyphz posted:That's where it gets tricky though. Like in the specific case of DF it was picked as one of the showcase groups for the Stream of Annihilation which was used to advertise D&D 5e. That shows that Wizards, at least, think that you're going to listen to it and think "hey, I want to play like that too" - not just "hey, that was fun entertainment". i'm not sure i agree with the assertion that advertisement is meant as an instruction on how to play and behave, especially in a time when i think most people are capable of understanding that most advertising is hokum. of course this is wotc we're talking about, and they're banking on the idea that people will watch a bunch of professional actor/comedian types bash their lovely game into something entertaining and get interested in buying it. a rational strategy, but a predatory one and not one i'd endorse
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 14:56
|
|
|
Serf posted:i'm not sure i agree with the assertion that advertisement is meant as an instruction on how to play and behave, especially in a time when i think most people are capable of understanding that most advertising is hokum. of course this is wotc we're talking about, and they're banking on the idea that people will watch a bunch of professional actor/comedian types bash their lovely game into something entertaining and get interested in buying it. a rational strategy, but a predatory one and not one i'd endorse Exactly. I tend to hear "D&D became popular because of Critical Role" as "D&D became popular because of something that is not D&D". As for not believing advertising, there's a kind of distrust combined with a void of information. Storage Wars is still increasing the popularity of storage auctions even after it was shown to be fake.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 15:15
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Exactly. I tend to hear "D&D became popular because of Critical Role" as "D&D became popular because of something that is not D&D". the distinction i'm making is between critical role the show, which is entertainment, and wotc's attempt to sell the game using these many shows/podcasts/etc. (again i didn't watch the stream in question, so i actually shouldn't assume based off of your assertion but it does seem like a relatively safe bet that this is what they were doing) i tried listening to critical role but it was pretty boring and hard to follow, which is actually decent advertisement for d&d 5e i guess
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 15:25
|
|
|
WOTC definitely wants to support those shows, it's great advertising. They sent a bunch of PHBs, an adventure, baseball caps and some other stuff for that show my buddy did with the WWE.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 16:30
|
|
|
LongDarkNight posted:WOTC definitely wants to support those shows, it's great advertising. They sent a bunch of PHBs, an adventure, baseball caps and some other stuff for that show my buddy did with the WWE. Just as long as they also included the following sign for prominent display: 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:02
|
|
|
As much as I love (not-awful) APs, it’s like fashion magazines for RPGs. Unrealistic sadness.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:04
|
|
|
hyphz posted:Just as long as they also included the following sign for prominent display: I'm more talented than any podcast dipshit except than maybe Joe Rogan, Stav and Carl Zha
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:06
|
|
|
i'm not sure that they are more talented, or at least i'm unconvinced that their talents are things that matter for an actual game. the ability to act passably and do fun voices is nice, but far more important to a show than it is at an actual table, which probably places less value on those things than an entertainment product. the one thing i do think most of these players are actually talented at that is useful to learn is improv, but that's something you just develop over time unless you're like taking classes or something. and plenty of games, especially modern games, have advice on genre conventions and fiction-first thinking that gives you at least some guidelines on how to improvise when the players do the unexpected. nothing is gonna be better than practice for developing those skills
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:10
|
|
|
Serf posted:i'm not sure that they are more talented, or at least i'm unconvinced that their talents are things that matter for an actual game. the ability to act passably and do fun voices is nice, but far more important to a show than it is at an actual table, which probably places less value on those things than an entertainment product. the one thing i do think most of these players are actually talented at that is useful to learn is improv, but that's something you just develop over time unless you're like taking classes or something. and plenty of games, especially modern games, have advice on genre conventions and fiction-first thinking that gives you at least some guidelines on how to improvise when the players do the unexpected. nothing is gonna be better than practice for developing those skills Nootropics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:12
|
|
|
fool_of_sound posted:iirc all the duck gods are just duck versions of the core orlanthi gods And if you try to tell them that to their faces, they'll be happy to demonstrate how "duck versions" of things - namely you - are inherently changed from the original.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:13
|
|
|
I really enjoy playing on Discord by text. We play at our own pace. I don't have to wrangle cats trying to get everyone online or together at once. It gives you something fun to think about every day. It does take a lot of time to accomplish anything and it's like, if we do two encounters in a day that's a busy day. I also like being able to search the chat history to remember what I said about something two weeks ago. We do have to make some adjustments to play that way without maps or minis and be super clear about who's doing what, to whom, when, but I think those are good habits anyway. We've had a game continually rolling slowly but surely every day for over a month now and it's been great.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:31
|
|
|
whydirt posted:Is there a general buy/sell RPGs thread in SAMart? I see one for board games and one for MtG. Wondering about this too, got some Shadowrun and Star Wars SAGA Edition stuff I need to offload
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 18:23
|
|
|
LuiCypher posted:And if you try to tell them that to their faces, they'll be happy to demonstrate how "duck versions" of things - namely you - are inherently changed from the original.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 18:23
|
|
|
FMguru posted:And the great thing about Glorantha is that both groups are right. This is actually the worst thing about Glorantha.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 19:19
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:This is actually the worst thing about Glorantha. Why?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 19:32
|
|
|
And so it begins again; we are thrust once more into the archetypal roles of debates about God Time, in the hopes that we will change the qualities of God Time and the world to end the debates.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:26
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:And so it begins again; we are thrust once more into the archetypal roles of debates about God Time, in the hopes that we will change the qualities of God Time and the world to end the debates.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:34
|
|
|
does every joke get mistaken for fightin' words now? or am I still just being too generous and assuming we're a chill forum?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:34
|
|
|
Coolness Averted posted:does every joke get mistaken for fightin' words now? I just wanted to make a joke about Heroquesting the myth of Arguments About God Time, myself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:36
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:I just wanted to make a joke about Heroquesting the myth of Arguments About God Time, myself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:44
|
|
|
Yawgmoth posted:Similarly, I just wanted to make a Zybourne Clock reference. It was very good. Now, we just need two more abstruse fictional metaphysics references, on the edge of a cliff...
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 13:15 |
|
|
Yawgmoth posted:Similarly, I just wanted to make a Zybourne Clock reference. Oh man, those never get old.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 00:29
|
|