|
Trolls are just big orcs, as long as you stick to the contemporary explanation of the origin of orcs and don’t fall for the Noldor’s moralistic lies
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 13:33 |
|
|
skasion posted:Trolls are just big orcs, as long as you stick to the contemporary explanation of the origin of orcs and don’t fall for the Noldor’s moralistic lies I think an explanation of Trolls as Morgoth-warped earth spirits makes more sense. I know from the various Bombadil debates that in at least some drafts and notes, there were or may have been many "other orders" that Illuvatar sent into Middle Earth: quote:'...in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä.' quote:'...brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great... they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much...' So trolls make sense as earth/stone-spirits warped by Sauron / Morgoth (much as Dragons may have, and Balrogs definitely did, have origin as Maiar warped by Morgoth).
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:45
|
|
|
Tolkien repeatedly uses the word "spirit" in the Silmarillion. In some cases it clearly means Ainur but in others it's pretty ambiguous. Ungoliant is a spirit, for instance. One plausible reading of the text is that Ungoliant is a being not created by Iluvatar at all (though I doubt that this was the intended reading and even if it was the Silmarillion is written by a historian in-universe, not an omniscient narrator)
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:48
|
|
|
In the primitive material of BOLT Morú/Ungwë Liante is clearly increate. She’s primordial void incarnate. That’s another thing that had to be done away with though Tolkien never really came up with a convincing alternative and explained the question away with “The Wise dunno lol”.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:01
|
|
|
“Spirit” may also be the Middle Earth catch-all term for “no idea what this is but it’s real.” They don’t know that Ungoliant touched down from outer space but they do know she’s real.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:21
|
|
|
In the published Silmarillion the timeline for the earliest days of Ea seems to be --A bunch of the Ainur descend into Ea; it clarifies that the Valar then went to Arda proper but doesn't clarify if any Ainu stayed outside of Arda -- In the Ainulindale, Manwe "called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwë". Whatever a "spirit" is, it's something that can exist outside of Arda; i.e. in outer space. In the Silmarillion proper, the same structure is there but instead of a host of spirits it's Tulkas that expels Melkor. --With the aid of these spirits and/or Tulkas, Melkor is forced out of Arda --While exiled, Melkor "gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service", and with this army he overthrew the lamps and took over half the world, forcing the Valar back to just Valinor. Ungoliant is described with "some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service". So assuming this unreliable elven historian is right, she's one of those spirits from the halls of Ea described above. The easiest reading of this text is that the spirits from outside Arda are Ainur; this is supported by the idea that Tulkas may be one of those spirits and explains where the Maiar came from when they're notably absent from the paragraphs describing the creation of Arda. Maiar are also described using the word "spirit" in the section describing them in the Valaquenta. To make things confusing, the word "Maia" seems to specifically describe the "people of the Valar" and Sauron and Balrogs should maybe properly be called former Maiar. In other words I think it's reasonably likely that in the published Silmarillion Ungoliant is an Ainu, who didn't enter Arda in the first wave but hung out in outer space until Melkor was gathering his army.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:28
|
|
|
I think that passage also implies, or at least leaves open, the possibility that there are spirits of / arising within Eä , i.e., spirits of the land, earth, hills, etc., which are not of the Ainur, but distinct.quote:Goldberry appears in the massively multiplayer online role-playing game The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar. She can be found in "Goldberry's Glade" in the Old Forest. Her race is referred to as "River-maid". The game also features another member of this race, Goldberry's sister Naruhel, known as the Red Maid, who is of a darker and crueler nature. This is an original character not featured in Tolkien's writings. I'm so glad I don't play online games no more Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Sep 20, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:35
|
|
|
Maia just means “beautiful (one)”; the Ainur serving Melkor are more properly called “Úmaiar” or in older versions, where the Valar bred and their children were the Vanimor, they were called Úvanimor. Properly speaking “Ainur” probably shouldn’t be used to describe Melkor and his servants either, since its denotation is that of holiness, but I don’t think even JRRT adhered to that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm so glad I don't play online games no more This is Shelob in one of the lotr games 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
Of all properties to fall prey to Ethics in Gaming Journalism
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 21:43
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:This is Shelob in one of the lotr games I love the 21st century t-shirt.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:16
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:This is Shelob in one of the lotr games i say
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:18
|
|
|
Okay tho making Shelob into a sexy lady puts an extraordinarily uncomfortable spin on Sam’s battle with her. That ain’t a passage to read in mixed company if you’re picturing a 5f8i 122lb Yennifer instead of three tons of exoskeletal horror
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:23
|
|
|
I haven't played the game but here's an article talking about it (warning, it's extremely dumb): https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-08-15-why-shelob-is-a-woman-in-shadow-of-war The tl;dr is that the writer for the game, who I assume must have a gold medal in missing the point, wanted to turn Shelob into a good guy by saying she knew Frodo would fail to destroy the ring and wanted to take it away from him for that reason.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:28
|
|
|
skasion posted:In the primitive material of BOLT Morú/Ungwë Liante is clearly increate. She’s primordial void incarnate. That’s another thing that had to be done away with though Tolkien never really came up with a convincing alternative and explained the question away with “The Wise dunno lol”.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:28
|
|
|
Yeah but on the other hand, Satan was less cool back then. At the end of the story they chase him up a tree to the sky and then cut the tree down so he’s stuck there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:34
|
|
|
I really need to reread the book of lost tales
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:35
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:This is Shelob in one of the lotr games Oh, I'm aware when I'm eventually diagnosed with brain cancer the tumor will look like Sexy Shelob
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:45
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:This is Shelob in one of the lotr games She tried to sit on Sam's face but he wasn't having none of that
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:00
|
|
|
“Those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men.”
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:03
|
|
|
"Shelob was a spirit, not a real spider, she can look like anything." Nah, she was just a big spider, guys.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:24
|
|
|
skasion posted:Yeah but on the other hand, Satan was less cool back then. At the end of the story they chase him up a tree to the sky and then cut the tree down so he’s stuck there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:28
|
|
|
sassassin posted:"Shelob was a spirit, not a real spider, she can look like anything." There was a point made ... maybe in the comments on a Rock, Paper, Shotgun article about Sexy Shelob there, asking about how appropriate it is to gender a spirit, what Shelob's nature was, etc. The point was: It's in her name. 'lob' means spider. Her name is just she-spider.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:30
|
|
|
Also pretty much every spirit in Tolkien's works is gendered. He even spends a paragraph in Valaquenta talking about how the Valar have genders even though they don't have permanent bodies.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:32
|
|
|
Vavrek posted:There was a point made ... maybe in the comments on a Rock, Paper, Shotgun article about Sexy Shelob there, asking about how appropriate it is to gender a spirit, what Shelob's nature was, etc. The point was: It's in her name. 'lob' means spider. Her name is just she-spider. And yet they miss the grotesque sensuality of Shelob forebearer. Sigh.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:45
|
|
|
sassassin posted:"Shelob was a spirit, not a real spider, she can look like anything." Large being that appear spider shaped Not a spider
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:48
|
|
|
I'm phoneposting so I can't look up the passage, but isn't Shelob the daughter (descendant?) of Ungoliant by some unnamed male spider monster made by Morgoth? Luthien is half-Maia but her nature is still basically elven. Seems reasonable to me that Shelob's nature would be basically spider monster even if she has a spirit for a mother.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:51
|
|
|
No one knows. Elves didn’t keep good records on that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:52
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I thought the cops finally bust into his death metal album fortress and throw him out the airlock. Where's the tree chase come into it! They shut him up in Lumbi and Mandos sent his dog to guard him, but Tevildo Prince of Cats after ages chews through Melko’s chains and he walks (no mention of the dog). Naturally Melko decides to go to Tol Eressea (=Britain at this point) and tries to start poo poo between the Gnomes and the other elves. The gods do gently caress all to help the elves out except Tulkas, who sends his son Telimektar. Telimektar with the help of Ingil son of In(g)wë chases Melko up the tree (it’s somewhere in Staffordshire) and remain in the sky, as Orion and Sirius respectively, to keep him occupied while the tree is cut down. Melko is still a jerk and tips the sun-maiden out of her ship, which is why the sun is no longer magic and the fairies only come out at night. Eventually he’ll come back down and if men choose to aid him at that time, he’ll straight up loving kill all the gods and the world will end. Otherwise Fionwë and Turambar will kill him, Valinor will be reopened for business and we all live happily ever after.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:54
|
|
|
There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 23:57
|
|
|
From the Silmarillion:quote:For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. So we have a reasonable guess at Shelob's father. The idea that those foul creatures were monsters made by Morgoth is a supposition but it seems reasonable. Of course it says "spider form" there as well. Maybe it's just to clarify that these are monsters that look like spiders, rather than all spiders being creations of Morgoth? It could easily be read as meaning that they're spirits (whatever that means) wearing a spider-shaped body though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 00:03
|
|
|
If he meant spider he would have said spider. Spider form is not spider.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 00:07
|
|
|
Oh sure I'm on board with them not being literally genetically spiders I was mostly pushing back on the idea that she's just a spirit who can shapeshift--we have no indication that Shelob or the other spider-form monsters were anything other than bound to their spider-forms.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 00:10
|
|
|
Oh sure. That video game was an abomination.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 00:10
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:I'm phoneposting so I can't look up the passage, but isn't Shelob the daughter (descendant?) of Ungoliant by some unnamed male spider monster made by Morgoth? Luthien is half-Maia but her nature is still basically elven. Seems reasonable to me that Shelob's nature would be basically spider monster even if she has a spirit for a mother. Technically it only says "of spider form", so probably the same amount of spiderness that Ungoliant herself has. The Silmarillion posted:With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to fight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant, no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last. edit: this is what I get for not refreshing the page before posting edit 2: given that evil cannot create life, only twist it, wouldn't normal size spiders be considered like any other animal, ultimately stemming back to Iluvatar and not inherently evil? The giant "foul" spiders would therefore be the twisted version, meaning that it would be impossible for them to be "true" spiders in that sense. Radio! fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Sep 21, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 00:19
|
|
|
skasion posted:They shut him up in Lumbi and Mandos sent his dog to guard him, but Tevildo Prince of Cats after ages chews through Melko’s chains and he walks (no mention of the dog). Naturally Melko decides to go to Tol Eressea (=Britain at this point) and tries to start poo poo between the Gnomes and the other elves. The gods do gently caress all to help the elves out except Tulkas, who sends his son Telimektar. Telimektar with the help of Ingil son of In(g)wë chases Melko up the tree (it’s somewhere in Staffordshire) and remain in the sky, as Orion and Sirius respectively, to keep him occupied while the tree is cut down. Melko is still a jerk and tips the sun-maiden out of her ship, which is why the sun is no longer magic and the fairies only come out at night. Eventually he’ll come back down and if men choose to aid him at that time, he’ll straight up loving kill all the gods and the world will end. Otherwise Fionwë and Turambar will kill him, Valinor will be reopened for business and we all live happily ever after. i just want you to know that i laughed pretty hard at this. thank you
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 07:30
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:rather than all spiders being creations of Morgoth? There's the thing about elves refusing to touch spiders because Ungoliant, so maybe we are supposed to take it that they're all spawn of Morgoth?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 08:21
|
|
|
Runcible Cat posted:There's the thing about elves refusing to touch spiders because Ungoliant, so maybe we are supposed to take it that they're all spawn of Morgoth? Elves are a superstitious cowardly lot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 11:58
|
|
|
euphronius posted:Oh sure. Actually it was real cool and good and seeing someone have the balls to actually do something interesting with lotr rather than just letting it sit static forever was dope and I hope we see more things like that. It's also a small part of the game really and if you are skipping out on Orc Murder Simulator 2017 cause Shelob can shapeshifting you're being a whiny baby.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 13:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 13:33 |
|
|
I don’t enjoy murdering orcs. They’ve suffered enough.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2018 13:59
|
|