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Blaze was envisioned as a main tank? But they gave him huge wave clear and self sustain? Uhhhhh....
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Sep 21, 2018 13:39
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Erdricks posted:Blaze was envisioned as a main tank? But they gave him huge wave clear and self sustain? Uhhhhh.... That's what the devs have said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Sep 21, 2018 13:55
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Erdricks posted:Blaze was envisioned as a main tank? But they gave him huge wave clear and self sustain? Uhhhhh.... I mean, couldn't you say the same of Diablo? His wave-clear is pretty good and he has some of the best self-sustain in the game.
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Sep 21, 2018 14:30
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Blaze just is not very good in the 4 man. Diablo theoretically is lacking things that main tanks want but he's great in the 4 man so it doesnt really matter. Double tank Diablo is imo great (on the right maps) and I'm usually happy to have diablo/mura on my team. But diablo is very killable while rotating which is probably why it's not done by actual good players and his wave clear is worse than you'd think (it was actually better pre-rework, his flames did much more damage). No Wave fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Sep 21, 2018 |
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Sep 21, 2018 14:31
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Blaze’s first problem as main tank is that he doesn’t peel for his team. If you’re playing, say, Jaina, and Sonya gets on you, Garrosh can taunt or throw her away or throw you to safety. Jo can blind and pull/stun her. Blaze can, uh, maybe toss an oil slick that’ll slow her a little so you can walk away? He also doesn’t have lockdown aside from his long cooldown, blockable stun with a windup. Again, he has that slow, but it doesn’t lock someone down, it just makes it slightly harder to get away (unless he’s used his main damage ability to light it up and you didn’t spend a talent on adhesive petroleum, in which circumstance it does nothing). He doesn’t root people like Arthas or stun them in place like Mura or toss them into his team like Garrosh. He’s got incredible self sustain and waveclear and when he comes in for a flank he can brutalize a team fight but he’s not remotely MT material
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Sep 21, 2018 14:55
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No Wave posted:The part about hidden MMR and ranked points somehow diverging even further since some recent change (causing longer queue times) was very strange. Not terribly strange. If you believe their other statement that their changes to matchmaking have resulted in 'better matched games', which would imply that they're putting together games with lower MMR variances; then those games would end up having a larger impact on each individual player's MMR than games did previously, which would cause MMR to move faster than the relatively slow moving rank can keep up. The players on an average 2200 ranked team will gain more points from winning a game against an average 2200 ranked team than they would if they won a game against an average 1900 ranked team because MMR is designed to give more meaning to games won against more even matchups than it gives to matchups that were slanted one way or the other. The core problem is that they have two different systems. One is a mathematically sound system: MMR; and the other is a completely arbitrary system that's not at all based in any sort of rigor: ranking -- and they're both fed by fundamentally different inputs. So it's not surprising in the least that they're going to diverge, and they're going to diverge faster when either one of the two moves faster. And that leads to the result where someone might queue up and there be plenty of good opponents for them also in the queue, but they can't be matched with them because the matchmaking restrictions tied to the broken ranking system prevent it from happening. The solution is to get rid of ranking entirely and just use MMR, but they aren't going to do that for.... reasons.
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Sep 21, 2018 15:09
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I didn't know that mmr weighted even games more significantly but it makes sense. Your analysis is totally correct otherwise - not only are ranked points pointless but they're hurting matchmaking and queue times, often quite significantly. Currently the system has to essentially satisfy two distinct matchmaking algorithms.
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Sep 21, 2018 15:23
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Blaze’s first problem as main tank is that he doesn’t peel for his team. If you’re playing, say, Jaina, and Sonya gets on you, Garrosh can taunt or throw her away or throw you to safety. Jo can blind and pull/stun her. Blaze can, uh, maybe toss an oil slick that’ll slow her a little so you can walk away? I came here to post basically this but you already covered all of the bases for me fake edit: the only thing you didn't do was compare him to Sonya to explain why he's terrible MT material Kith fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Sep 21, 2018 |
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Sep 21, 2018 18:23
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B-but Sonya isn't a main tank either?
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Sep 21, 2018 18:42
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Bogart posted:B-but Sonya isn't a main tank either? 
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Sep 21, 2018 18:44
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Tyrael is another character who fails lots of main tank metrics but he's still used because he's good in the 4 man (has aoe buffs, can get in and out reliably, etc). I don't think Blaze's moveset is fundamentally flawed, if you removed his aoe attack and weakened his pve damage and buffed a bunch of crap to compensate it might be plausible. But that's a lot of ifs, and i doubt it will happen.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 21, 2018 |
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Sep 21, 2018 18:47
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Tyrael is weird cause he's kinda a feel-bad character. He can make a serious impact on the game, but always kinda looks and feels like he's not doing anything, because he's not a playmaker. He's more a constant presence the other team has to play around.
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Sep 21, 2018 19:00
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Team Dignitas vs Roll20 Esports is starting off with a bang. Munky/onepricktony, the famous Samuro one-trick, is subbing in for Wubby on Team Dignitas and they first-picked Samuro. Mephisto is also now live in HGC and playing. https://www.twitch.tv/blizzheroes
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Sep 21, 2018 19:40
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i know HGC is boring for a lot of people here but wubby is referred to by other pros as the best solo laner in the world and is by most estimates the best player period outside of korea. And they replaced him with a guy who has a level 300 samuro.
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Sep 21, 2018 19:53
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No Wave posted:i know HGC is boring for a lot of people here but wubby is referred to by other pros as the best solo laner in the world and is by most estimates the best player period outside of korea. And they replaced him with a guy who has a level 300 samuro. And he showed why.
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Sep 21, 2018 20:01
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No Wave posted:Tyrael is another character who fails lots of main tank metrics but he's still used because he's good in the 4 man (has aoe buffs, can get in and out reliably, etc). I don't think Blaze's moveset is fundamentally flawed, if you removed his aoe attack and weakened his pve damage and buffed a bunch of crap to compensate it might be plausible. But that's a lot of ifs, and i doubt it will happen. I haven't seen a tyrael Ingame since I returned to the game, so maybe 150 matches. I assume he's played some in pro?
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Sep 21, 2018 20:04
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:I haven't seen a tyrael Ingame since I returned to the game, so maybe 150 matches. I assume he's played some in pro? He's got a very specific niche as a force multiplier in good hands with good teammates. Otherwise he's kind of a drag and just not that fun to play as.
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Sep 21, 2018 20:13
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:I haven't seen a tyrael Ingame since I returned to the game, so maybe 150 matches. I assume he's played some in pro?
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Sep 21, 2018 20:22
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No Wave posted:i know HGC is boring for a lot of people here but wubby is referred to by other pros as the best solo laner in the world and is by most estimates the best player period outside of korea. And they replaced him with a guy who has a level 300 samuro. We all know that it is alextheprog that’s the best.
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Sep 21, 2018 20:34
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No Wave posted:i know HGC is boring for a lot of people here but wubby is referred to by other pros as the best solo laner in the world and is by most estimates the best player period outside of korea. And they replaced him with a guy who has a level 300 samuro.
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Sep 21, 2018 20:37
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It makes some sense to bring in someone who constantly splitpushes in that situation. Much easier to coordinate on macro than to rely on winning teamfights without having practiced.
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Sep 21, 2018 20:39
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Tyreal's moves all barely register as having done anything. Not a single one of his moves other than judgement feels like you're even hitting buttons. IMO they should replace smite with a cooler more that has more umph to it
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Sep 21, 2018 20:41
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He's just an older hero without many of the kinetic and stun moves that newer heroes have, and his warp-back-to-his-sword move should probably have some kind of displacement.
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Sep 21, 2018 20:58
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Bake in five or so talents to Tyrael and make W and E do more and he'd be fine. or make judgment his new Trait 
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Sep 21, 2018 21:43
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it loving owns seeing y'all say all of the poo poo that i said about tyreal years agoNo Wave posted:I don't think Blaze's moveset is fundamentally flawed, if you removed his aoe attack and weakened his pve damage and buffed a bunch of crap to compensate it might be plausible. But that's a lot of ifs, and i doubt it will happen. As a character, there's nothing wrong with him - he's an amazing offlaner and an amazing offtank. However, none of his design beats hit what makes a good Main Tank. Main Tanks need to be able to apply effective peel (ETC, Muradin), generate pick opportunities (Garrosh, Stitches), or mitigate damage (Tyreal, Leoric). Blaze isn't really capable of doing any of those things (or if he is, he's not very good at them) and so his abilities are going to need a major overhaul if Blizzard wants him to fulfull the Main Tank role.
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Sep 21, 2018 21:53
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Bogart posted:make judgment his new Trait Im changing my tyreal vote to this
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Sep 21, 2018 22:15
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I mean, what is judgment really other than a fancy Diablo q on a longer cooldown?
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Sep 21, 2018 22:34
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Hey I need a vod for this Munky subbing in!
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Sep 21, 2018 22:36
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lucifirius posted:Hey I need a vod for this Munky subbing in! http://www.twitch.tv/blizzheroes/v/312868882?sr=a&t=10683s
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Sep 21, 2018 22:47
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Thanks! He's one of my favorite streamers just because of the skill required to use Samuro to full potential.
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Sep 21, 2018 23:14
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Tyrael works as a main tank because when he's used you generally don't need peel. He dives in with his team (and is v. good for diving), gives the other divers shields and buffs, can talent a magnificent displacement, and at 10 makes the entire dive invulnerable. He's dreadful in a more standard comp because he has none of the tools that MTs bring to the table. IMO he's a bad example when discussing the broader 'tank or solo laner' because he isn't either - I don't think there's another warrior with as specific a niche as him.
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Sep 22, 2018 04:20
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Shibawanko posted:He's just an older hero without many of the kinetic and stun moves that newer heroes have, and his warp-back-to-his-sword move should probably have some kind of displacement. A long time ago, he used to have a talent that gave him a displacement on his Smite, but Blizzard removed it, presumably because it was too disruptive.
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Sep 22, 2018 04:55
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https://twitter.com/HeroesHearth_gg/status/1043318981304754176 Tomorrow's match means absolutely nothing to HHE, so tomorrow at 4 PM CST bambam will make his return to HGC.
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Sep 22, 2018 07:42
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https://twitter.com/blizzheroes/status/1043201563513245702?s=21code:e: pithy comment aside, it seems this was actually undoing some lovely code the community asked for. They had made matchmaking care about MMR (yeah sure) plus Rank to avoid "rainbow games" where ranks were spread out more. If someone's MMR differed from their Rank, it'd take time to find a game with someone else whose MMR differed from their rank in the same way. After the hotfix, it'll go back to mostly caring about MMR, not Rank. Some people will complain "OMG gg we have a silver on our team" but long queue times are worse than triggering morons I guess BrianBoitano fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Sep 22, 2018 |
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Sep 22, 2018 12:43
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Gobbeldygook posted:https://twitter.com/HeroesHearth_gg/status/1043318981304754176 Any idea what the rules are for replacing Arthelon? I'm more than a little surprised they didn't plug in a permanent replacement before Blizzcon, if for no other reason than to put some serious work in and make the team gel. E: I know they can't plug in a guy that has not lived in NA for at least six months, is in the Crucible or was part of an HGC team when the rosters locked, so I'm kind of surprised they aren't just rolling with Homicidal. Corsair Pool Boy fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Sep 22, 2018 |
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Sep 22, 2018 15:56
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Tanks need to do 4 things (in pro play): 1. Control Vision Be able to wait in a bush and see the enemy coming and being able to not die if they collapse on you. Generally this means some sort of escape. 2. Initiate Be able to isolate a target reliably so that your team can blow them up. Generally, hard cc that is hard to counterplay. 3. Peel Be able to get the enemy team off your backline so they don’t die. Generally, displacement is the best, healing and slows are also good. 4. Survivability Not dying to poke or the enemy diving on you. Armor, high health, sustain, etc. If you’re missing one of these others on your team can make it up, but if you’re missing more than one you probably can’t main tank. Blaze doesn’t control vision well and his initiate is poor. Both require his E which is telegraphed and blockable. Tyrael however controls vision great, initiates with move speed, has amazing peel after 13 with Holy Ground plus his shields, and is pretty hard to kill. He really wants a dive team and he’s really hard to play well, partially because his abilities don’t feel impactful.
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Sep 22, 2018 16:13
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All this tank talk reminded me of this overview JHow made about different tank types, their synergies and counters. Engagement/All In
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Sep 22, 2018 16:31
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CavalierGuest’s Art of the Tank hasn’t been updated in a while, but the general information is still good. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1efiJPDPIvUez4tD0B1mfp9Kq9d-sLhvh6aPB5O045M0/edit?usp=sharing
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Sep 22, 2018 16:38
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unpronounceable posted:All this tank talk reminded me of this overview JHow made about different tank types, their synergies and counters. Things like this mostly just remind me how few tanks and off-laners there actually are in the game.
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Sep 22, 2018 16:42
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unpronounceable posted:All this tank talk reminded me of this overview JHow made about different tank types, their synergies and counters. I would include Garrosh as having pretty good area control by the threat of his ability to pick off a target. Stitches doesn't create the same space denial, probably because the hook doesn't come with a body block.
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Sep 22, 2018 18:17
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