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BattyKiara posted:This is really outside of what this thread is about, but I think I'll have more luck here than in The Book Barn. It's been forever since I've read it and I don't recall if the story you mention is part of it (though it feels like the sort of thing that would be) but the first thing I thought of when you mentioned "Biblical stories, rewritten" was "The Book of God" by Walter Wangerin Jr.
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Sep 22, 2018 15:04
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Paladinus posted:Don't know if it will help with finding the book, but there is a Jewish midrash on returning to God with a similar message. Google says it's in Pesikta Rabbati. Man every time I learn something new about Jewish theology it sounds rad as hell. Mind there's probably a bit of a filter at work given I mostly hear about it here, but still.
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Sep 22, 2018 19:39
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Man every time I learn something new about Jewish theology it sounds rad as hell. This actually isn't an uncommon kind of theme, that it is best to do as much as you are able even if you fail, especially with regards to attaining wisdom. To seek wisdom is the highest calling, even though humans can never actually attain it, and seeking it profits them. To truly understand the way to wisdom is the province of God, yet man should still seek it (and respect God in the process).
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Sep 22, 2018 19:53
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It's only half-relevant but I'm reminded of the Ezra Pound poem, The River-Merchant's Wife. (an adaptation of an original by Li Bai)Ezra Pound posted:While my hair was still cut straight across my forehead HopperUK fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Sep 22, 2018 |
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Sep 22, 2018 20:03
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Thank you for trying, everyone. But the book was more of an anthology. Several authors I think, and very differing styles and quality of the stories. Thank you for trying.
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Sep 23, 2018 10:55
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https://twitter.com/gaabrielIa/status/1043331270850342914
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Sep 23, 2018 19:38
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Senju Kannon posted:he made a bunch of notes in word, sent it to the editor's of the paper i tried to publish in, and they forwarded it to me but the knowledge that paul knitter, who is a bit of a powerhouse in theology of religions (despite without buddha i could not be a christian...) thought i wrote like poo poo made me too depressed to read it. that, coupled with living across the country from my friends and family for three years, transitioning, and being incapable of making new friends made me feel so isolated and disaffected that i just wanted to go home. if it weren't for my adviser suggesting i switch to master of theological studies from master of arts, which meant i only had to do a 15 page paper he graded instead of a masters thesis, i would have just dropped out after doing all my coursework. That's a bummer about the paper. It resonated with me. My own experience in the academy was that it suffered from a lot of dualistic thinking, which is enough to depress any aspirant. I also think I see what you mean about the comparatively less amount of analysis that has so far come from engaged Buddhism. citybeatnik posted:It mostly came down to "yeah nawh that's cool for the baptism. now, if you're planning on getting married here we'll have to have a different talk." Tell me about it. Although, looking deeper, it does appear the conversation as already begun.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:13
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So, uh, we're going over the monophysicists in class, and that's some serious poo poo. If they think all bits of God is all god-stuff, does that mean Jesus was a kind of hologram of divine power? Because that owns
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Sep 24, 2018 08:09
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I like how when God chooses Moses as his personal representative to the Israelites he basically says 'No, I suck.'
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Sep 24, 2018 09:40
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Which bible would be the one used (or most widely used ) in Europe in the late 1200s.
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Sep 24, 2018 12:29
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Tias posted:Which bible would be the one used (or most widely used ) in Europe in the late 1200s. The Vulgate, most probably? Although I don't know if the Vulgate per se was actually established in modern form until Trent? Keep in mind that before the Reformation, biblical literacy beyond what was used in Mass was low. Mind-bogglingly low.
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Sep 24, 2018 12:32
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Spacewolf posted:The Vulgate, most probably? Although I don't know if the Vulgate per se was actually established in modern form until Trent? anyway the answer is the vulgate. also depending on where your characters are the Mass (if it's in Latin) / Liturgy (if it's in anything else) will not look like the modern Tridentine Rite, which achieved its present form in 1962. there are many rites, in the west and in the east
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Sep 24, 2018 12:44
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Please pray for my student "B," who attempted suicide this weekend. He's a bright young man and is now getting help, so I hope he'll be back to school in the future.
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Sep 24, 2018 15:11
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Pellisworth posted:Please pray for my student "B," who attempted suicide this weekend. He's a bright young man and is now getting help, so I hope he'll be back to school in the future. I hope that he gets better!
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Sep 24, 2018 15:23
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HEY GUNS posted:also depending on where your characters are the Mass (if it's in Latin) / Liturgy (if it's in anything else) will not look like the modern Tridentine Rite, which achieved its present form in 1962. there are many rites, in the west and in the east when i was growing up i think one of the churches we went to switched off every other week between Liturgy A and Liturgy B. another one only did communion once a month im genuinely interested if any of you read the above paragraph and cringed
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Sep 24, 2018 15:57
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just found out my friend from saint john’s cancer has progressed. he has two brain tumors now, and has spent the last week in the hospital. i would appreciate any prayers for him
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Sep 24, 2018 19:15
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Pellisworth posted:Please pray for my student "B," who attempted suicide this weekend. He's a bright young man and is now getting help, so I hope he'll be back to school in the future.
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Sep 24, 2018 20:31
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HEY GUNS posted:it isn't his fault: http://ww1.antiochian.org/node/22478 well, he's also bipolar / manic depressive I'm hardly blaming him for it, the tragic reality is that suicide rates are extremely high among Native American youth. I had another student drop out last spring because his 17yo sister took her own life. Like I told him, I wish you a speedy recovery and hope to see you back next semester! 
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Sep 24, 2018 20:36
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Senju Kannon posted:just found out my friend from saint john’s cancer has progressed. he has two brain tumors now, and has spent the last week in the hospital. i would appreciate any prayers for him quote:And now I will make answer to you, O my judges, and show that he who has lived as a true philosopher has reason to be of good cheer when he is about to die, and that after death he may hope to receive the greatest good in the other world. And how this may be, Simmias and Cebes, I will endeavor to explain. For I deem that the true disciple of philosophy is likely to be misunderstood by other men; they do not perceive that he is ever pursuing death and dying; and if this is true, why, having had the desire of death all his life long, should he repine at the arrival of that which he has been always pursuing and desiring?
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Sep 24, 2018 22:02
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I have a prayer request  Some of you folks know that my dad, Lutha Sr., is a pastor. He is having some stressful times in his professional life. He is right now searching for a new employment. Specifically, he would like to seek a new call at a parish. This is because of some professional tensions in his current situation, which I don't want to talk more about, in order to protect privacy and not bad-mouth anyone. This is especially stressful for him because he is not a spring chicken. It is difficult in his denomination to get work as a pastor ages, for a few reasons, and this is true even though when his paperwork is submitted to a parish (or any other post), his actual age is note disclosed. Number one is that it is pretty clear how to construct an age range from someone's resume: it lists your college years and how many years you are in ministry. If you have been in ministry for, I dunno, 30 or 40 years, you are obviously going to be near retirement age. This brings us to number two, which is that a lot of parishes don't want to pay for an experienced pastor. His denomination has a pay scale, of which one component is years of ministry. More ministry --> more dolla dolla bills y'all. Haha just kidding, it isn't a megachurch situation so the amount of money is not very large in first-world absolute terms. But the reality here is that all parishes are controlled locally as independent units, so you have small-time non-profit volunteers running the show and oh boy we can't spend an extra $2, $5, $13 extra thousand dollars on pastor payroll!! The third thing is the general older-employee bias that people of those ages have to deal with. Oh boy we can't hire somebody nearing retirement age because they're just going to quit on us! Or oh no, they're going to have health problems and milk us dry on sick days! Garbage like that. Lutha Sr. is of course, like I said, getting old, but that guy will continue to work as long as he can if he feels like he can do the work and do a decent job. He might even have to take a gig in........ Wisconsin, but even so I would appreciate any support from you folks 
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Sep 25, 2018 05:21
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yeah, there are a few things about orthodoxy i do not agree with and one of the big ones is they don't pay the priests well (in the us). it sucks.
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 07:56
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with orthodoxy it's probably a bit different though. for Lutherans there is a super long tradition in this country where many different ecclesiastical, political, and organizational issues were experimented upon, tried, and tested. this is not some kind of dig on Orthodox americans, of course. it's just an acknowledgement that there are differences so, interesting thing. i did some cursory googling and i actually did find an ELCA synod where their top tier very experienced pastor salary guidelines were really quite close to almost reaching $100,000 per year. to me this is crazy. it's crazy because i've not heard of anyone making that much. it wouldn't surprise me that a few pastors in comparable synods are clearing close to that, but it has to be in some rather more affluent enclaves of those synods. the reason i say this is because i haven't really ever heard of a pastor getting a salary offer that was way above the recommendations Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 08:12
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that's loving nuts not only that there's some place, somewhere, where ministers make that, but also that we think this is weird. Like, why shouldn't a job that requires a PhD or years of specialized training make that? Other PhD level jobs do. the fact that the Lutherans and the Orthodox are so completely fine with this situation should bother us. most of the priests i know have multiple jobs and are exhausted. these are small conservative OCA parishes and ROCOR, it's possible that in the bigger parishes or among the Greeks and Arabs this is different. I hope.
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Sep 25, 2018 09:08
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Lutha Mahtin posted:with orthodoxy it's probably a bit different though. for Lutherans there is a super long tradition in this country where many different ecclesiastical, political, and organizational issues were experimented upon, tried, and tested. this is not some kind of dig on Orthodox americans, of course. it's just an acknowledgement that there are differences
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Sep 25, 2018 10:58
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It's not remotely comparable, but my eyes looked at priest payscales in a Catholic diocese once and my eyes bugged out. Like, I don't care what kind of non-wage benefits you get (because those can be so parish-dependent) - if you have the minimal qualifications a priest in the US requires, as a matter of dignity you should not remotely be making "low enough that you could possibly qualify for medicaid". I know budgets on a parish level are tight af and frequently a reason parishes get closed, but seriously, if you cannot pay the priest according to what he'd be worth at a bare minimum, the salary you'd pay someone with a reasonably-competitive BA or BS (and a decent GPA), then...I hate to say it, you have a problem. I think I was seeing that a priest, and I believe this was in San Diego or somewhere out west, made like $25-30k on the upper end. You look at numbers like that, and you realize most priests don't take a vow of poverty, and you realize "hey wait, if in our society wage is a measure of how much a function is valued, no wonder the guys in seminary aren't the greatest catches and there aren't many to boot!" I hate to say it, but if we paid more maybe we could be pickier about who we ordain, and that'd solve a host of issues!
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Sep 25, 2018 13:14
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pidan fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Sep 25, 2018 13:21
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pidan posted:In Germany priests are paid pretty well, certainly comparable to other academics. there you get the opposite problem--people who don't really want to be priests and who don't care, doing it because "at least it's a secure job." you hear a lot of horror stories about guys like that from countries with state churches HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 13:38
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Good news, the student I mentioned was released from treatment and will be back to school after a few days' rest! Thanks for the prayers folks 
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Sep 25, 2018 15:24
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Pellisworth posted:Good news, the student I mentioned was released from treatment and will be back to school after a few days' rest! God be praised.
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Sep 25, 2018 16:01
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pidan posted:In Germany priests are paid pretty well, certainly comparable to other academics. I don't think the job attracts a fundamentally different, better class of men here than in America. Plus they often get free board in the rectory.
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Sep 25, 2018 16:15
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well priests' wives usually also work two or three jobs apiece, as well as running the parish edit: even if you do not believe in god, religion, or the supernatural, this situation is basically expecting someone to be a therapist that can't prescribe drugs and the leader of a small community center/walk-in hangout, for almost no money. It's poo poo. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 16:45
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HEY GUNS posted:edit: even if you do not believe in god, religion, or the supernatural, this situation is basically expecting someone to be a therapist that can't prescribe drugs and the leader of a small community center/walk-in hangout, for almost no money. It's poo poo. Well, yes. The fact is though that it's not going to change as long as "keeping human beings mentally healthy and alive" isn't as valued by society as "moving fake numbers around to make my bonus bigger".
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Sep 25, 2018 17:35
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HEY GUNS posted:that's loving nuts. not only that there's some place, somewhere, where ministers make that, but also that we think this is weird. Like, why shouldn't a job that requires a PhD or years of specialized training make that? Other PhD level jobs do. the fact that the Lutherans and the Orthodox are so completely fine with this situation should bother us. Yeah, Lutha Sr. has a master's degree in divinity. This included three years of classroom work and a one-year internship. All of that and then by the last year before you retire, you will still probably have a lower salary than the starting salary compared to degrees with similar schooling requirements. Off the top of my head these degrees will earn you more right off the bat: physical therapy, physician's assistant, lawyer, MBA, a masters-level STEM degree. And unless you get a nice scholarship, you're probably looking at broadly similar levels of debt. On the other hand, I think it's comparable to other arts and humanities degrees. Unless you take your advanced degree in like, history or music, and hit it big as a popular artist, author, etc., you are probably looking at the world of academics, non-profit grants and fellowships, and that whole world. These are jobs where you are never going to get super rich and in order to hack it you have to deal with powerful gatekeepers, patrons, volunteers, and the general public will be very opinionated about what you are doing regardless of whether they support your mission or work. These jobs also involve a lot of passionate debate and conflict about complex concerns in areas like ideology, doctrine, emotions, history, ethics, and culture. Sounds like church, right? P.S. In my previous post comparing US Lutherans to Orthodoxy I didn't mean to sound like I was saying Orthodox people are "new" to America. I meant it as a comment on how the history of Lutherans in the US, in terms of organizational structure and mergers and schisms, is a lot "messier" and dynamic compared to the more top-down structure of Orthodox church organizations. e: I will also note that I'm not complaining about my upbringing or that churches are super wrong for not paying pastors zillions of dollars. My dad (and mom) were able to provide for us, and the ELCA does a good job in providing good benefits, such as decent health insurance. I just know how hard my dad worked to get his degree, and how hard he's worked his whole career, and how much he believes in the mission of the church to help people in need and to help people grow. Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 18:46
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HEY GUNS posted:likewise in many orthodox countries that are not the us Not in Russia either.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:29
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at the end of the day, capitalism is the problem. the low wages faced by priests for graduate level degrees isn't unique, and is in fact the normal in this current economy. in fact, in a lot of ways the situation facing priests and religious is slightly better in the sense that "at least they're employed in their field, even if it's for poo poo pay" i might be biased about that, though, what with the "the only job i've been able to get is retail working for 12/hour for 32 hours a week, until my back gave out and i became physically unable to do the job so now i'm unemployed trying to find work with a master's degree and failing"
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Sep 25, 2018 21:02
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It's the church that pays them, isn't it? If priests and ministers are underpaid, it's not that "society " does not view them. It's that their church and congregation doesn't value them.
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Sep 25, 2018 22:46
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parishes are financially independent and depend on tithes and donations from parishioners for funding so, a lot of the time it's just a reflection of the parishioners' own financial stability we live in an economy, guys
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Sep 25, 2018 22:52
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Epicurius posted:It's the church that pays them, isn't it? If priests and ministers are underpaid, it's not that "society " does not view them. It's that their church and congregation doesn't value them. are you seriously making an Ayn Rand argument to explain why a poor parish can't afford to pay their pastor very much e: whoops i forgot to quote epicurious when i posted vvvvvvvv Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 22:55
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i'm saying a parish that lives paycheck to paycheck and has a large number of undocumented immigrants who cannot receive government subsidies are not going to be able to offer the same level of financial support as a parish full of government contractors it's why rich neighborhoods tend to have churches with better upkeeps than churches in the hollers of appalachia. as long as there's class, that's going to extend everywhere, from the pews to the pulpits edit: oh you weren't talking to me cuase i was like "whaaaaaat" Senju Kannon fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 22:57
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what i'm saying is that the issue of pastors receiving less than living wages is part of the same system that oppresses every worker and depresses all wages. a capitalist economy does not value teachers, pastors, or anyone else who makes a living contributing to the public good. the issue should be looked at as part of a system, and not as an individual problem that needs an individual solution. the question of "why does a job requiring highly skilled education and which requires a lot of personal sacrifice not pay a living wage?" is "because the capitalist society does not deem any work which does not generate profit as worth doing." janitors are necessary to keep a hospital sanitary, and without them we'd have 19th century levels of infection. yet their paycheck does not reflect their necessity for keeping society moving. pastors, especially those from poor parishes, should be part of a movement seeking the destruction of wage slavery. instead, they often offer half measures at best or support the gutting of the welfare state and the castration of unions at worst.
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Sep 25, 2018 23:02
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