There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

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GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

*in the nick mullen Rain Man voice*

definitely. def- definitely a big fund. def- definitely socialism.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:18

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# ? May 9, 2024 09:57

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

GalacticAcid posted:

*in the nick mullen Rain Man voice*

<dsa member detected>

hello, liberal....

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:22

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

I was a member but left when they endorsed nixon lol

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:25

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

nixon is a softer maoist than you or i will ever be. truly aspirational.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:27

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The imperialist core is the United States.

US and UK/France/Germany, yeah. think you would need both to fall pretty quickly or capital would just flee to the other and/or nuke the world rather than lose power.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:29

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1043658565217603584?s=19

cmon matt

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:30

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

He's using the word capital to mean the actual thing, raw material, factories, wealth, and not the capitalist class which I feel like people are getting hung up on

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:36

Dreddout: Oct 1, 2015; You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

US and UK/France/Germany, yeah. think you would need both to fall pretty quickly or capital would just flee to the other and/or nuke the world rather than lose power.

Let them flee, it's not like Taiwan is a threat to China

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:45

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Graphic posted:

Does anyone have something concrete on how exactly the economy works in Rojava? I'm curious how it's socialist apart from rhetoric and equal rights for women.

obviously a biased source but this is pretty interesting (careful with link it redirected me to some popup)

https://mesopotamia.coop/the-economy-of-rojava/

quote:

Economic model

The most complicated topic is the conceptual development of Rojava�s economy. The Kurds don�t have an elaborate, detailed economic plan. There is a list of fundamental ideas on which, in their opinion, the economy of the region must develop. The ideological inspiration for the Kurdish revolution came from the political prisoner and revolutionary Abdullah �calan. It is with his ideas as a foundation that the Kurds strive to build a new society.

�calan writes: In a democratic nation, society must take control of the economics. Between nation states and the democratic nation there should be at least an agreement on economic self-government; any agreement or decision which is below this level means surrender.

The essence of economic autonomy is that it is not based on private capitalism, nor on state capitalism. Economic autonomy is a democratic form of economy. The bases are an ecologically-viable industry and a communal economy. The limits posed to industry, progress, technology, production and property � these are the limits within which an ecological and democratic society will prosper. In the economic autonomy, there is no place for industry, technology, progress, property, and neither for rural or urban populations who oppose themselves to an ecological and democratic society.

While the economy must not be the domain of accumulation of profit and capital, it does not need to deny the market, trade, a variety of products, competition and productivity. Yet, it must not let the accumulation of profits and capital lead in any of these fields. As for the financial system, it must be involved only in as far as it serves economic efficiency. (�calan, A. �Democratic life with woman as the basis of equality and freedom is the essence of life itself!�, Association of the women of Kurdistan, 2015, pg. 37-38)

Afr�n�s Minister of Economy Dr Ahmad Yousef characterised �calan�s concept as a �third way� in the economy, (the first way being neoliberalism, the second way Soviet socialism). Such a comparison immediately identifies �calan with the Social Democrats, who were the real pioneers of the Third Way. From the moment the Soviet Union broke down, big corporations did not need to make concessions to the working class anymore. The social-democrats� program of forcing big capital to accord small benefits to others became ineffective [36].

The Kurds of Rojava have a fourth way: to build a �people�s economy�. The 42nd article of the Social Contract says: �The economical system in the provinces shall be directed at providing general welfare and in particular granting funding to science and technology. It shall be aimed at guaranteeing the daily needs of people and to ensure a dignified life. Monopoly is prohibited by law. Labour rights and sustainable development are guaranteed.� [37].

Dr Ahmad Yousef defines the core of the new economy with the following words: �Historical facts assure us that the economy becomes a science to meet the needs of communities, it isn�t a science to maximise wealth for specific groups. From this definition we must know that the economy would not be economical if it is not social, in other words, any economy that is not aimed at achieving the social welfare of all members of society cannot be defined as economy, but is a sophisticated mechanism for financial, intellectual and cultural looting. This definition of economics is the theoretical basis for the development of economic and social policies in Rojava.� [38].

He continues: �The market is a main part of social economy, but the use-value must be greater than the exchange-value, and there is no stock market� [39].

Dara Kurdaxi, economist and member of the Committee of Economic Revival and Development in Afr�n, says:

�We need new models for organisations and institutions. Those which are called collective, communal economic models, sometimes referred to as social economies. This is the method we are using as a foundation, so that the economy in Rojava can pick up and develop. The method in Rojava is not so much against private property, but rather has the goal of putting private property in the service of all the peoples who live in Rojava, for them to use. Naturally we�re only at the beginning. But nonetheless, even if only in small ways, we�re seeing some positive developments. We must be clear that we don�t need an economic revival and development which has no clear goal for the community [�] It shouldn�t be a capitalist system, one without respect for the environment; nor should it be a system which continues class contradictions and in the end only serves capital. It should be a participatory model, based on natural resources and a strong infrastructure.

The democracy of a society must always be measured against the democratisation of its economy. For this end, the project in Rojava is an outstanding example. Some development can already be witnessed in Rojava. For instance, the oil industry is under the control of the councils and managed by the workers� committee.

The refineries produce cheap benzine for the cooperatives and the staff of the autonomous government. A great deal of land which was previously nationalised under Assad as part of the anti-Kurdish policies is now managed by free Rojava through agricultural cooperatives. Doctors� committees are working to form a free health system.

A people�s economy should thus be based on redistribution and oriented towards needs, rather than on being oriented exclusively towards accumulation and the theft of surplus value and surplus product.

The artificial creation of needs which ventures forth to find new markets, and the boundless desire for ever more gigantic profits makes the gap between rich and poor ever wider, and expands the camp of those who are living on poverty line, those who die of hunger. Such an economic policy is no longer acceptable to humanity. The greatest task of a socialist politics lies therefore with the implementation of an alternative economic policy, one based not on profit but on the fairer redistribution of wealth.� [40].

Abdurrahman Hemo, the Economic Development Adviser for the Ciz�r� Canton, speaks of a �three-fold� economy in the case of Rojava: 1. Community economy 2. War economy 3. Open economy [41].

The concept of �community economy� implies a popular economy based on cooperatives and communes. Rojava has given a new revolutionary impulse to the cooperative movement. Today, cooperatives are springing up and developing further in small industry, building and trade, although most cooperatives are in rural areas. This is one of the greatest strengths of the Kurdish revolution─because of the relative ethnic and social unity, the Kurdish cities are in good contact with the countryside and are able to carry their revolutionary message there. According to Afr�n�s Minister of Economy, 60% of the poor population were Syrian Kurds, living compactly in the agricultural north of the country. Wealthy Kurds lived in Aleppo and Damascus, building good relations with the regime [42]. This did not preclude different layers of class existing within Kurdish society, although such class division was minimal.

Cooperatives are either entirely made up of women or are mixed-gender. Membership is voluntary, management is collective. The main goal of cooperatives is to develop collective work. The property of the cooperative is collective. It takes the form of shares. Every participant has between one to five shares. The amount of shares a person has does not have an influence on their power to make decisions within the cooperative. There is one vote per person, it is not negotiable. A person without any financial means can also become a member of a cooperative, by taking a loan from it.

The profit is split into three: one part is spent on the planned production and future projects (30%), the second part (50%) is divided between the workers according to their needs and expended efforts, the third part (20%) is spent on the immediate needs of the cooperatives: health insurance, education, electricity, water, upkeep of roads, etc. [43]

The main objectives of Rojava�s economy consist of two major tasks: 1) providing the population with basic necessities 2) financing the armed forces.

Rojava is, above all, a society at war, and this leaves a big mark on the local economy. 70% of the budget goes towards the war effort. The bulk of weapons and ammunition is paid for by the budget of the Autonomous Administration. The YPG also obtains arms as booty in military campaigns, but this constitutes a smaller percentage. The Kurds don�t have heavy weapons except for some trophy tanks [44]. They are armed with light weapons (АK-47, М-16), heavier machine guns (DshK, KPV), anti-tank grenade launchers (RPG-7) and mortars. They also have a limited number of American Humvees [45]. ISIS constitutes a serious enemy for the YPG. The jihadists have equipped themselves abundantly with looted material from the Syrian and Iraqi armies. They have captured several dozens of T-55 tanks, Soviet-produced BRDM, and American armoured vehicles, M1117 and MRAP [46]. At the time of the siege of Kobane, the jihadists shot at the city with rocket launchers. Despite their superiority in terms of heavy armament, ISIS was defeated by the YPG forces. Thanks to the help of the PKK and the growth of the grassroots movement in Syria, they managed to liberate a territory the size of 18,000 square kilometres, while neutralising more than 5,000 jihadists. The YPG lost 680 people in one year of fighting [47].

The impact of the war on the economy is nothing surprising. The economic situation is extremely difficult now. The stream of refugees arriving is never ending, and this population growth makes things more complicated. On top of that, the embargo deals a heavy blow to trade. Syrian Kurdistan, 70% of whose economy is agrarian, does not have the resources to diversify its economy. In connection with this, the Kurds announced the need to create an open economy which attracts investments from international sources.

Abdulrahman Hemo, the Economic Development Advisor in Ciz�r�, speaks about this in an interview:

�We don�t have the means to develop our economy. We are not able to create an environment where everyone is able to work and where professionals can get jobs, because we don�t have the means to create companies.There is revenue from the social economy, but costs are rising due to the war.

To raise the quality of life as a whole, we need some kind of industry, we need electricity. Our oil industry is very primitive�we can just barely produce diesel. We need to build a refinery, but we need $300 million for that. Unfortunately, the community cooperatives can�t pay for it.
We need electricity. To build ourselves a power plant would cost us $400 million, but we don�t have it. Community cooperatives can�t finance it. Yet we still need electricity. So we need help from outside, private or public. We don�t have any factories to produce fertiliser for the farmers. We have all the raw materials to produce fertiliser, but don�t have the factories. We have to buy fertiliser from Iraq now. We need $5 million to build a fertiliser factory. Community cooperatives can�t provide that kind of money.� [48]

According to the book, A Small Key Can Open a Large Door [49], there are three types of property in the Kurdish economy: 1. Public 2. Private property based on direct use 3. Collective property in the hands of self-organised workers. The right to large private property was abolished in 2012. The social contract stipulates that natural resources, land, infrastructure and some businesses are public wealth [50]. Speaking of nationalisation would be misleading, since the Kurds of Rojava have adopted a clear anti-state position.

Two types of de-facto private property remain: personal property (cars, electronic goods and so on), and property based on direct use. The latter form of private property is especially interesting due to the fact that it is conditional. One person or a group of people can use a tract of land or structure, yet they cannot sell it on the market.

Dutch social researcher J. Jongerden remarks: �In Rojava, the distribution of energy and food is organised through the organs of democratic autonomy. In the social contract of Rojava, land was declared to be under common ownership � but the land of big landlords has not been expropriated because the movement �does not want to use force�. Still, if the social contradictions deepen, what is the alternative? At the moment the movement in Rojava has not really been confronted with this issue yet. Many of the landlords have fled and it is not clear what will happen when the war ends, and whether these landlords will return. I think it was a choice of the movement to remain cautious for the moment� [51].

Аhmed Yousef says that � of property that was once private is now used by rural and urban councils. The rest is used by individuals. Around 1/3 of all industry is used by workers� collectives, whose activity is coordinated by councils [52].

Despite the fact that the autonomous government denies engaging in any state planning, an �Institute for Economic Development� has been founded to coordinate economic life. Its main office is in D�rik [Derik / Al-Malikiyah]. Xel�l Koban�, a member of its executive council, explained that the institute operates in six main areas: trade, service, building, agriculture, industry and fuel. The main task of the establishment is the development of projects for the modernisation of agriculture and industry. The institute has the authority to regulate import and export trade, and it issues trading licences to individuals [53].

The question of money collecting in the enclave is one of the most intricate ones. It�s clear that Rojava is missing a centralised tax system. Beyond that there is contradictory information. For example, Abdulrahman Hemo, the Advisor for Economic Development of Ciz�r�, announced that the administration of the canton does not have any income from tax [54]. However, Alexander Rybin, who visited the Ciz�r� Canton, cites Elizabeth Gaurie, Vice President of the Executive Council of the canton: �We have taxes. For example, when someone buys a car, they need a licence plate for it, and to receive it, they pay a due amount. There are taxes that have to do with business and so on� [55]. In Afr�n, taxes have been introduced that respond to specific needs of the local administration [56]. The Economic Minister of Afr�n says, �We are looking into the tax system from the Autonomous Basque Region. Taxes are collected and these taxes are distributed to the ministries depending on the need. There is transparency around these questions. The citizens know where the taxes they pay are being spent. However we cannot say that this system is entirely in place yet� [57]. It is worth clarifying that in Spain three different tax collecting instances exist (federal, regional and local). The Basque country has autonomy. This allowed the local government to introduce its own tax system; a certain percentage of their taxes goes to the federal budget [58]. On average the Basque people pay �468 less into the treasury per year than other Spanish people [59].

The leaders of the Rojava administration have expressed themselves as opposed to a bank system and the issuing of their own currency. An important tenet for Rojava is the economically durable development of production. Given the fact that the level of industrial development of the region is very low, the problem of environmental pollution is not urgent [60].

Conclusions

If we summarise our findings, we can say this: Rojava is trying to build an agrarian form of socialism based on cooperatives. As a result of the revolutionary transformations, around 2/3 of the big private property has been �socialised�, put at the service of everyone. A broad system of councils and cooperatives was built, which enables ordinary people to be active participants in economic and political life. The autonomous administration deliberately lowers prices on essential products to make them accessible even to the poorest members of society. The Kurdish revolution improved the situation of women in society enormously, making them active participants in the Kurdish revolution. Janet Biehl may exaggerate only a little bit when she writes: �In this revolution, the women play the role that the proletariat played in the Marxist-Leninist revolutions of the last century� [61]. The Rojava administration introduced free primary and secondary education. Efforts are being made to create a new health insurance. Rojava has become a safe haven for countless refugees, who were welcomed by the Kurds. This is just a short list of the achievements of the Rojava revolution.

The main weaknesses of the Kurdish cantons is the agrarian character of their economy (70%) and the economic embargo.

Lenin once said that in order to make a stick straight, you need to bend it in the other direction. The economic policies of the Kurds came about as a reaction to the ultra-centralised economic model of Assad, under which Damascus dictated every detail of what could be planted and what not. Because of this, the Kurds wanted to build an economy from the bottom-up. This also explains naive misconceptions such as rejecting the sale of oil and central planning. Assad used these things─is that reason enough to refuse them categorically?

In our opinion, Rojava does not have very good future prospects in its current form. Not one single country in the world is interested in investing in Rojava and developing the three cantons. Again, as all throughout history, the Kurds can only rely on themselves.

The agrarian character of Rojava�s economy helps people avoid hunger, but this is only half a victory. Political independence is always built on the foundation of a strong, modern industry. However big the mistakes were that the communists committed in the past, they were right with one thing: without a strong industrial basis, socialism will be crushed.

The only economic chance Rojava has is the full diversification of its economy. One of the sources for this can be oil, which the Kurds so far cannot and do not want to sell. Generosity is a wonderful quality, but it is pointless to show respect to a predator who wants to eat you.

Rojava successfully defends itself as a third side in the conflict. What chances does it have if it comes to withstanding Assad or the jihadists on its own? We have to admit, they are quite small.

The economic embargo of the Kurdish cantons is carried out by Turkey and the Barzani clan of Iraqi Kurdistan acting in collusion. It�s naive to think that any kind of admonition from outsiders could make these two allies open the gates to let economic help through to Rojava. The only way out of this is a regional revolution. The Kurdish self-defence forces are already fighting de-facto against the Turkish army in the south-east of Turkey. The Kurds number several million in Turkey─this is a huge human resource pool for Rojava and Erdogan understands this perfectly. In order to crush the Kurdish autonomy project in Syria, he uses systematic terror to �clean the hinterland�. In Iraqi Kurdistan the masses are not politicised by the PKK, they look to the bourgeois-tribal system of the Democratic Party of Kurdistan instead. The example of Shengal shows that Rojava can receive help from Iraq. The Kurds of Rojava stress that democratic confederalism can be a model for the whole of Syrian society [62]. Self-isolation for Rojava will mean death; the expansion of the social revolution to include the rest of Syria and Turkish Kurdistan means life.

We commit a big mistake if we assume that the state borders of countries like Syria, Iraq and Turkey are inviolable. A century ago the European countries divided the Kurdish people into four states, taking any type of autonomy away from them. What happens now in the Middle East is not an evil accident, but a predictable process, the premises of which has ripened for many decades. Even if Assad destroys the open resistance of the jihadists, forcing them into the underground, this will only be a tactical victory. Nationalist, bourgeois regimes are a thing of the past in the Middle East.

Today, Rojava resembles an injured lion which is chased by a pack of hyenas. The lion has little chances to win, but it will fight to the last breath.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:46

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

US and UK/France/Germany, yeah. think you would need both to fall pretty quickly or capital would just flee to the other and/or nuke the world rather than lose power.

The UK/France/Germany are wimpy little crushing fetishists, and the United States is a morbidly obese woman sitting on their faces and farting until they can't breathe.

Karl Barks posted:

He's using the word capital to mean the actual thing, raw material, factories, wealth, and not the capitalist class which I feel like people are getting hung up on

When people who have read Marx talk about "capital" they're thinking of "capital" as an abstraction in the form of finance capital (to Marx this was more concrete, because money in his day was still a hard currency and not credit produced by fiat). It makes sense that Matt Bruenig doesn't think of himself as being antagonistic to capital, because his big goal is to nationalize finance. But nationalizing finance isn't good enough, because it still depends on the profit motive to perpetuate itself and accumulate value. Nationalization or socialization of finance should only ever be a transitory phase in the development of socialism towards communism, but Matt doesn't see things that way because he doesn't understand Marxism.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:52

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

The US falls to Communism and establishes shabby little socialist client states across Western Europe as capital flees to free Eurasia and Mar�chal Putin builds Capitalism In One Country

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:56

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1043652295823695872

Everything about this sentiment is hideously, woefully naive. Taking over capital and controlling it democratically is the literal aim of revolutionary socialism. You're not going to think tank and lobby your way into taking control of capital lmao.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 05:57

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

wrong

https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1043708525036417024

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:05

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The UK/France/Germany are wimpy little crushing fetishists, and the United States is a morbidly obese woman sitting on their faces and farting until they can't breathe.

When people who have read Marx talk about "capital" they're thinking of "capital" as an abstraction in the form of finance capital (to Marx this was more concrete, because money in his day was still a hard currency and not credit produced by fiat). It makes sense that Matt Bruenig doesn't think of himself as being antagonistic to capital, because his big goal is to nationalize finance. But nationalizing finance isn't good enough, because it still depends on the profit motive to perpetuate itself and accumulate value. Nationalization or socialization of finance should only ever be a transitory phase in the development of socialism towards communism, but Matt doesn't see things that way because he doesn't understand Marxism.

I don't think Bruenig even considers himself an orthodox Marxist though, so I don't think he's thinking of it in those strict terms. I might have missed a tweet (and I didn't read the economist article) but I don't think he's claiming to be talking about marx explicitly, ie. this is what Marx thought

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:06

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Karl Barks posted:

I don't think Bruenig even considers himself an orthodox Marxist though, so I don't think he's thinking of it in those strict terms. I might have missed a tweet (and I didn't read the economist article) but I don't think he's claiming to be talking about marx explicitly

He's talking about finance capital.

Slanderer posted:

wrong

https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1043708525036417024

Oh cool, just keep winning elections in a bourgeois democracy and never lose to a right wing party. So simple.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:08

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

tbf the socdems in scandinavia consistently won until they all turned neoliberal and suddenly started losing.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:13

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

He's talking about finance capital.

Oh cool, just keep winning elections in a bourgeois democracy and never lose to a right wing party. So simple.

where is he talking about finance capital? when he talks about a SWF?

hey, no one said it would be easy. the other options aren't great either!

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:14

Infernot: Jul 17, 2015; "A short night wakes me from a dream that seemed so long."; Grimey Drawer

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

tbf the socdems in scandinavia consistently won until they all turned neoliberal and suddenly started losing.

Just magically decided to be neoliberal?

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:15

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Oh cool, just keep winning elections in a bourgeois democracy and never lose to a right wing party. So simple.

yes this is how democracy works. the two choices are democracy or monarchy. pick one.

EDITORS NOTE: xi jinping is not king of china, which is a democracy

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:15

Graphic: Sep 4, 2018; It's like Lenin said

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Oh cool, just keep winning elections in a bourgeois democracy and never lose to a right wing party. So simple.

also the most all-powerful class in the history of the world, with trillions at risk and also at their disposal, who are willing to let billions die and live in misery for the sake of their profits, definitely has no survivial instinct or means of reprisal and repression. they will totally step down and go to work at an iron mine when "The Socialism Act" is passed in congress.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:15

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Graphic posted:

also the most all-powerful class in the history of the world, with trillions at risk and also at their disposal, who are willing to let billions die and live in misery for the sake of their profits, definitely has no survivial instinct or means of reprisal and repression. they will totally step down and go to work at an iron mine when "The Socialism Act" is passed in congress.

presumably there would be a political movement behind the socialism act that gives it some oomph

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:17

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

Graphic posted:

also the most all-powerful class in the history of the world, with trillions at risk and also at their disposal, who are willing to let billions die and live in misery for the sake of their profits, definitely has no survivial instinct or means of reprisal and repression. they will totally step down and go to work at an iron mine when "The Socialism Act" is passed in congress.

luckily we have found their one weakness: staying inside and Posting

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:17

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

�cuba, but in a rich country� imo

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:19

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

Infernot posted:

Just magically decided to be neoliberal?

no, no magic involved at all

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:20

Graphic: Sep 4, 2018; It's like Lenin said

Karl Barks posted:

presumably there would be a political movement behind the socialism act that gives it some oomph

the only oomph that the capitalist class would respect is the credible threat of violent revolution if they don't give in to the popular will; the threat of cutting their heads off if they resist expropriation. otherwise you're just shaming/begging them into following the rules like a democrat. these people barely adhere to the laws we have now and that's with the entire system tailor made to suit their interests.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:20

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Graphic posted:

the only oomph that the capitalist class would respect is the credible threat of violent revolution if they don't give in to the popular will; the threat of cutting their heads off if they resist expropriation. otherwise you're just shaming/begging them into following the rules like a democrat. these people barely adhere to the laws we have now and the entire system is tailor made to suit their interests.

sure that can happen along the way, i'm not saying it can't or shouldn't

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:22

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

It�s crazy how all the social democratic parties around the world just independently decided to become neoliberal

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:22

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

GalacticAcid posted:

It’s crazy how all the social democratic parties around the world just independently decided to become neoliberal

yeah thats what i said

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:24

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

Graphic posted:

the only oomph that the capitalist class would respect is the credible threat of violent revolution if they don't give in to the popular will; the threat of cutting their heads off if they resist expropriation. otherwise you're just shaming/begging them into following the rules like a democrat. these people barely adhere to the laws we have now and that's with the entire system tailor made to suit their interests.

reporting this vile post to the FBI. you're finished sucker

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:25

Slanderer: May 6, 2007

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

yeah thats what i said

you said it didnt involve magic, which is laughably wrong. read up on chaos magick and you'll see the truth about the IMF

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:26

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

yeah thats what i said

No I said it, just noting it to marvel at how crazy it is

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:26

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

it's hilarious to me that a progressive dem like Matt and an anti-abortion tradcath like Liz have so much of the online left rose emoji crowd wrapped up in their bullshit lol

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:28

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

ShriekingMarxist posted:

it's hilarious to me that a progressive dem like Matt and an anti-abortion tradcath like Liz have so much of the online left rose emoji crowd wrapped up in their bullshit lol

yeah i mean the online left rose emoji crowd generally doesn't get wrapped up in bullshit so this is out of character

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:31

Graphic: Sep 4, 2018; It's like Lenin said

GalacticAcid posted:

It�s crazy how all the social democratic parties around the world just independently decided to become neoliberal

it makes you wonder how much governments really interferes in their own politics, passively, directly, or otherwise.

the UK Labour party situation is a perfect example. many of the party MPs and a large portion of the party membership never actually did go neo-liberal, it seems like just the face of the party changed with the succession of imperialist pro-capitalist goons. were they bribed? subtly cultivated? i don't know why they were there. but it turns out the Labour constituency actually wanted someone like Corbyn.

in what was the First World, social welfare never existed because it was the moral thing to do, it existed to stave off revolutions. the threat was especially pronounced with the Soviet Union around that had a gigantic state-funded aparatus that could stoke workers' disaffection. so during the Cold War the ruling class saw the necessity of having social democratic politics and parties to act as a pressure release valve. but it really seems like the fall of the USSR is when they started to infiltrate and mutate left wing parties into parties that are non-hostile to the capitalist and imperialist world order, and to offer harmless social victories as an outlet.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:34

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Slanderer posted:

yes this is how democracy works. the two choices are democracy or monarchy. pick one.

EDITORS NOTE: xi jinping is not king of china, which is a democracy

I choose making liberalism illegal.

GalacticAcid posted:

It’s crazy how all the social democratic parties around the world just independently decided to become neoliberal

Sweden was hit by a major financial crisis in the early 90s because the bubble burst on a real estate boom that had been cultivated in the 80s through over-lending. They resorted to neoliberalism because the GDP was declining at a rate which was unsustainable with all their welfare obligations, so they cut spending to get their budget under control. Sweden still has an extensive welfare system, but it's not what it used to be.

http://www.oecd.org/employment/emp/38749309.pdf

In 1991 the unemployment rate in Sweden was 1.7%, and then it shot up to almost 10% due to the crisis and has hovered around 5 since then in the wake of reforms. 6% of Swedish workers also have low pay, which performs a lot better than other OECD countries but the fact it happens at all is a serious concern.

Even in conditions where you have a vibrant social democracy, you cannot avoid a crisis of capital which will be seized upon by liberal reformists. Matt's ideal conditions can't achieve the overthrow of capitalism, because as long as capitalism is allowed to exist in any form it will reify itself through crisis.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:35

Sheng-Ji Yang: Mar 5, 2014

ShriekingMarxist posted:

it's hilarious to me that a progressive dem like Matt and an anti-abortion tradcath like Liz have so much of the online left rose emoji crowd wrapped up in their bullshit lol

hes a good poster and hes good at what he does, which is make simple graphs that show how brutally unequal american capitalism is and organize harassment campaigns of twitter libs. luckily we dont have to be purist assholes about everything all the time.

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:35

Graphic: Sep 4, 2018; It's like Lenin said

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

hes a good poster and hes good at what he does, which is make simple graphs that show how brutally unequal american capitalism is and organize harassment campaigns of twitter libs. luckily we dont have to be purist assholes about everything all the time.

we don't but we can still harmlessly laugh at him for thinking socialism is when the government does stuff

# ? Sep 23, 2018 06:36