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So I'm kind of confused, on the one hand this guy wants to throw shade at the idea of trying to totally own Nazis in the Marketplace of Ideas (which, for the record, I agree is real fuckin dumb) but then he also wants to throw shade at people who don't think that trying to court anti-fascist allies among groups who are typically only too happy to hitch their wagon to burgeoning fascists is a great idea, but isn't that basically just the same thing?
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Sep 23, 2018 05:17
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The root cause is he doesn’t actually know anything about any of the groups in question beyond what you’d glean from a half-assed skim of the respective Wikipedia articles.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:19
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Like, I can see there being a valuable reminder that not every religious person believes that god hates gays and abortions or not everyone who owns a gun is feverishly beside themselves with the urge to murder minorities in the streets, but none of what he deigned to preview for people interested in giving him money displayed any of that, and in fact the overall point seemed to be "oh yeah, these groups actually suck a lot and given the slightest opportunity will become just as bad as the No Name Fascists you're fighting" but you're still supposed to try and wrangle them towards a common because I guess there wasn't anyone better available.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:24
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he's literally a centrist who's mad that centrist is being said as an insult
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Sep 23, 2018 06:02
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Centrists are going through the same cycle TERFs did by trying to make you the bad guy for hating their garbage politics.
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Sep 23, 2018 06:12
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:no, gently caress you, rear end in a top hat, and anyone else who thinks that murdering protesters is cool as long as it's a guy with the right enemies doing it 
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Sep 23, 2018 08:30
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The main thing I got from Sigmata wasn't the weird choice to have at least half of the factions you're forced to ally with be the kind of people who would straight-up support a fascist regime in reality, but the hand-wringing "b-b-but you'll become AS BAD AS YOUR ENEMY if you use actual insurgency tactics!" blather in the 'ethical insurgency' explanation in the Kickstarter. (Big no-nos: political assassinations, attacking enemies if they're on leave or out of uniform, harming or threatening civilians even if they're active collaborators with the enemy, etc.) Like the French Resistance should have had long debates about whether it was right to kill a Nazi after his shift was over as he wasn't actively oppressing the people at that exact moment, or decide they couldn't do anything mean to a Milice spy in their ranks because he wasn't in uniform. (The Kickstarter also had lots of talk about real-world counter-insurgency tactics, which is, er, the exact opposite of what the players should be using.  )
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Sep 23, 2018 08:33
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Casting the most natural allies of fascism as resistance against it is basically another expression of the American liberal's desperate holding out for the Reasonable Republican to ride over the hill to deliver them from terrible indecorous fascists and insurgent leftists.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:54
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You guys have done a good job calling out most of the bullshit he had in that thread, but there was one other thing I saw near the top that stuck out to me as pure crap. He says that people just "assumed" that the same marginalized groups of 2018 would be the ones fighting against fascism in his fictional world. But the marginalized groups of 2018 have been oppressed and marginalized for loving centuries! It's not like everyone in the 1800s was totally cool with gay people and people from other ethnic backgrounds. And in the history of political revolutions going all the way back to the Haitian revolution, these are the groups that have been fighting back against authoritarian conservative regimes. In Haiti and in South America the left fought against racist rigid caste systems. France had a whole bunch of revolutions and when you learn about those, you see women leading demonstrations, leftists asking for equality for women and being betrayed by liberals, people fighting for the right to unionize and strike. The same loving battles we have to fight today as the right wants to dismantle labour and oppress women and people of colour. The Bolsheviks legalized abortion when they came to power. It's been over 2 loving centuries of these same fights and this dumb rear end in a top hat can't see where the lines are drawn.
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Sep 23, 2018 14:56
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lmao, the anecdote he's crowing about where a conservative group have a couple of members concede that maybe antifa are alright is some real Chuck Schumer "for every blue collar Democrat we lose..." poo poo.
Saguaro PI fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 15:14
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Jimbozig posted:You guys have done a good job calling out most of the bullshit he had in that thread, but there was one other thing I saw near the top that stuck out to me as pure crap. He says that people just "assumed" that the same marginalized groups of 2018 would be the ones fighting against fascism in his fictional world. I mean if his point is that the literal modern manifestations of those movements wouldn't be the movements acting in his fictional, fantasy alt-1980s setting then, yes I guess that makes sense? But that's a trivially true position and, as you point out, the forces that fight fascism now have also largely fought it historically. Imagine though, then he'd have to make "extremist" versions of real world actors against fascism. Imagine what those would like in his mind. I almost prefer his absurd fetishization of classically fascist collaborators. Because based on his track record, I don't want him to do "extremist" versions of actual marginalized groups.
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Sep 23, 2018 15:18
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He also kind of doesn't understand fascism. Like. The fascists have no ideology, they don't like. Show any fascists in the book, because there's no group of people perpetuating the fascism. He has a whole ethical insurgency chapter where the politicians making the fascist machine run are described as collaborators and thus off limits targets for action. After President Joe McCarthy set up the American Fascism Machine, and wound it up it just kept going no matter who was in charge, which is why it's off limits to kill the president. In fact, the insurgent group won't even talk about the president that's how irrelevant he is.
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Sep 23, 2018 15:26
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Pulsedragon posted:He also kind of doesn't understand fascism. Like. The fascists have no ideology, they don't like. Show any fascists in the book, because there's no group of people perpetuating the fascism. He has a whole ethical insurgency chapter where the politicians making the fascist machine run are described as collaborators and thus off limits targets for action. After President Joe McCarthy set up the American Fascism Machine, and wound it up it just kept going no matter who was in charge, which is why it's off limits to kill the president. In fact, the insurgent group won't even talk about the president that's how irrelevant he is. This is debilitatingly worse than I imagined.
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Sep 23, 2018 15:28
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the idea that there has to be an extremist angle to it at all is weird and counter-revolutionary. the whole "be careful or you might go too far" thing seems unfun and dumb in an rpg about alt-80s magic cyberpunk rebels fighting against some sort of nondescript fascism. its basically what they did to killmonger in black panther. here's a dude who wants revenge for the injustices of the past and plans to start a worldwide revolution against the imperialist oppressors, which is a cool and good goal so they have to depict him as some sort of megalomaniacal psychopath because otherwise he's just straight up the hero (he's still the hero despite their best efforts). meanwhile the supposed hero of the film collaborates with the loving cia lol
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Sep 23, 2018 15:32
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nope
Anniversary fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 15:48
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Anniversary posted:Uh, I think the writer screencapped your twitter post and reposted it to "own" you. Without context, of course.
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Sep 23, 2018 16:00
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Anniversary posted:Uh, I think the writer screencapped your twitter post and reposted it to "own" you. Without context, of course. lmao and he blocked me. that rules
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Sep 23, 2018 16:01
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nope
Anniversary fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 16:02
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"We want the same thing, which is why I'm choosing to mock him in a way that explicitly disbars him from any kind of response, unlike the far right who I believe should be engaged in radical dialogue".
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Sep 23, 2018 16:08
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Pulsedragon posted:He also kind of doesn't understand fascism. Like. The fascists have no ideology, they don't like. Show any fascists in the book, because there's no group of people perpetuating the fascism. He has a whole ethical insurgency chapter where the politicians making the fascist machine run are described as collaborators and thus off limits targets for action. After President Joe McCarthy set up the American Fascism Machine, and wound it up it just kept going no matter who was in charge, which is why it's off limits to kill the president. In fact, the insurgent group won't even talk about the president that's how irrelevant he is. Yes, why don't we look at the portrayal of the regime in this? The chapter on them starts out detailing their merged military/law enforcement organization that's replaced the traditional military corps and police: the Freedom Fist. Over half are deployed overseas in anti-soviet proxy wars while the other half are stationed in the US, particularly in urban centers. They behave like an occupational force within the US. They also wear loving skull masks, which are described as "iconic". The entire force is "at least 95% of them are Caucasian males between the ages of 18 and 40". The regime is rooted in discontent soldiers coming back from years of proxy wars to find women and refugees from the countries they'd been fighting in had taken their jobs. Reactionaries were voted in to #makeamericagreatagain and started putting journalists, immigrants, and anyone else critical of the regime in massive interment camps. They'd be transported to these camps in repurposed rail cars. Then the regime merged the military and cops and this was a great betrayal to the bitter veterans who voted the fascists. The regime is also described as apolitical: "The administration has absolutely no ideological nexus. Its agenda can be summarized quite simply as consolidating all wealth and power to the President and his loyalists. The Regime’s direct and indirect promotion of white supremacy, religious intolerance, and anti-Soviet paranoia do not reflect its ideological principles so much as provide it with highly effective avenues of usurping wealth, property, and power from the people." Everyone is cool with this because it still means that the liberals and minorities are being punished. And hey, fair, that's exactly what's happening right now, but wait I thought we were hiding behind this game being rooted in the ideologies of the 1980s? I mean sure, you can fairly argue that manipulating white anxieties and working class discontent is an ancient pillar of American politics. But then why have you contrived it so that you have to fight alongside people who are have happily run over to our own outrageously authoritarian, oligarchical presidency for belly rubs when apparently it's ridiculous to use the real historical revolutionary and resistance forces? Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 16:16
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spectralent posted:"We want the same thing, which is why I'm choosing to mock him in a way that explicitly disbars him from any kind of response, unlike the far right who I believe should be engaged in radical dialogue". dumb stuff Anniversary fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 16:16
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Hey folks. I'm okay with the general thrust of this discussion, as how games handle politics in today's political climate is relevant to the TG industry, but who's blocking who and an offsite guy's Twitter owns aren't. Please stop posting about Twitter. Thanks.
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Sep 23, 2018 16:41
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Ettin posted:Hey folks. I'm okay with the general thrust of this discussion, as how games handle politics in today's political climate is relevant to the TG industry, but who's blocking who and an offsite guy's Twitter owns aren't. Sorry. I'll edit. To try and state myself more elegantly: I think creating an explicitly political work that tries to "persuade" what the author perceives as the enablers of fascism to be against fascism is an interesting idea, except that considering oneself anti-fascist doesn't mean that one doesn't enable fascism. Does this take make any sense or seem accurate? Anniversary fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 16:43
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I'd say it's fair to propose a game about an underground resistance fighting a brutal dictatorship that has to make uncomfortable compromises. The Spire has shown it's possible to create a strong game built around that, too. Where Sigmata falls short is in trying to force a very specific scenario where you have to herd around people that you know would happily sell you out and set up their own flavor of fascist government if they felt slighted or got too much power. And to what purpose? Making you think about how everyone is human and has some relatable motivation? Thanks, I can read any of the numerous profiles on white nationalists that have been running on major news publications to get that irl without a game making me play that out.
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Sep 23, 2018 17:22
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'd say it's fair to propose a game about an underground resistance fighting a brutal dictatorship that has to make uncomfortable compromises. The Spire has shown it's possible to create a strong game built around that, too. Where Sigmata falls short is in trying to force a very specific scenario where you have to herd around people that you know would happily sell you out and set up their own flavor of fascist government if they felt slighted or got too much power. And to what purpose? Making you think about how everyone is human and has some relatable motivation? Thanks, I can read any of the numerous profiles on white nationalists that have been running on major news publications to get that irl without a game making me play that out. I think, think, think I figured out my issue with its framing of the fictional fascist state. It's not, definitionally, fascist. It's totalitarian. In that light, the allies of convenience start to make more sense? (Because they want to subvert the totalitarian state into an actual fascist state.) I could be totally off base with this line of thought though. So please call me out if you disagree.
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Sep 23, 2018 18:40
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Anniversary posted:I think, think, think I figured out my issue with its framing of the fictional fascist state. It's not, definitionally, fascist. It's totalitarian. I think this is a case where you're both putting in more thought and more well-informed on the topic than the writer was. It seems like the evil fascist regime might as well be COBRA. Hell, that'd be a better game.
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Sep 23, 2018 18:43
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Nice to know his chat with me a while ago about issues I had and him admitting he hosed up .in a few places was bullshit.
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Sep 23, 2018 18:48
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Anniversary posted:I think, think, think I figured out my issue with its framing of the fictional fascist state. It's not, definitionally, fascist. It's totalitarian. I'd buy that more except killing "fascists" is right there in the game's title and he's constantly going on about how it's a fight against Nazis, and therefore a universal cause across the political spectrum.
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Sep 23, 2018 19:06
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'd buy that more except killing "fascists" is right there in the game's title and he's constantly going on about how it's a fight against Nazis, and therefore a universal cause across the political spectrum. So I bit the bullet and am in the process of trying to F&F this thing. But so far, he uses those words but I'm not convinced they mean what they should? If that makes sense?
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Sep 23, 2018 19:09
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Having read the F&F as it you were doing it, seeing it compared to Spire really puts it into frank relief that the part that is compelling and interesting- the act of rebelling against a repressive regime- wasn't as important within Stigmata as being a retread of a Stranger Things suburban 80s wunderlend where you're more likely to run into a racist than a person of color. "Write what you know", indeed.
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Sep 23, 2018 19:15
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Gerund posted:Having read the F&F as it you were doing it, seeing it compared to Spire really puts it into frank relief that the part that is compelling and interesting- the act of rebelling against a repressive regime- wasn't as important within Stigmata as being a retread of a Stranger Things suburban 80s wunderlend where you're more likely to run into a racist than a person of color. Wait, someone already F&F'd it, phew, saves me a headache. e: There is always more and it is always worse. Anniversary fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 19:23
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Plutonis posted:The what. I was referencing the 2016 Dem primary (still running on Twitter from now until the end of time!) where folks would claim that Bernie's supporters (and by extension, supporters of socialism in general) were all obnoxious white bro-dudes. Thus, "Bernie Bro." It's a way to diminish an argument or movement by being like, well, the only people who ACTUALLY believe this are Rick & Morty types.
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Sep 23, 2018 20:06
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BinaryDoubts posted:I was referencing the 2016 Dem primary (still running on Twitter from now until the end of time!) where folks would claim that Bernie's supporters (and by extension, supporters of socialism in general) were all obnoxious white bro-dudes. Thus, "Bernie Bro." It's a way to diminish an argument or movement by being like, well, the only people who ACTUALLY believe this are Rick & Morty types. I know I just thought you were one of the people who use that term and was calling the SIGMATA guy that. Apologies.
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Sep 23, 2018 20:14
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Ahh! Gotcha. Sorry for the confusion.
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Sep 23, 2018 20:17
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Its one of those things where it originally referred to the weird tendency for a bunch of lovely white dudes to shout down (mostly) women and poc who had any kind of criticism of the Sanders campaign and other chair-throwing histronics, that over the course of the campaign morphed into the above assertion that all Bernie supporters were obnoxious white dudebros. edit: honestly I feel like %90 of this is twitter poisoning. Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 20:19
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Anniversary posted:So I bit the bullet and am in the process of trying to F&F this thing. But so far, he uses those words but I'm not convinced they mean what they should? If that makes sense? Oh I'm sure he's totally misusing those words. He's trying to have a fascist punching game that's also painting the regime in the vaguest possible way because the factions you're working to keep passive have to be able to slot into the regime seamlessly if you piss them off.
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Sep 23, 2018 20:27
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Anniversary posted:I had no idea i was the only non 'cishet white dude' to be critical of them. It's a weird piece of performance art in some social justice circles to assume that critics on the internet cannot possibly be minorities, even when it's very clear that they are. Part of it is due to simple ignorance of unfamiliarity with non-USA forms of race (like presuming Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews benefit from white privilege even when they have dark skin), but quite a lot of it is willful blindness.
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Sep 23, 2018 20:30
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He's gonna make a WW2 hack where you play as the heroic Forest Brothers and the OUN and the Vlasov regiment fighting against Soviet tyranny
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Sep 23, 2018 20:33
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Nuns with Guns posted:Oh I'm sure he's totally misusing those words. He's trying to have a fascist punching game that's also painting the regime in the vaguest possible way because the factions you're working to keep passive have to be able to slot into the regime seamlessly if you piss them off. I'm 60 pages in and wow, I have no idea how to play this game. I have a write up of contradictory things. I have a headache. But that makes a lot of sense. And is... really gamifying solidarity? Libertad! posted:It's a weird piece of performance art in some social justice circles to assume that critics on the internet cannot possibly be minorities, even when it's very clear that they are. Part of it is due to simple ignorance of unfamiliarity with non-USA forms of race (like presuming Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews benefit from white privilege even when they have dark skin), but quite a lot of it is willful blindness. Yeah, my nature as a non 'cishet white liberal dude' isn't obvious. But uh, yeah, at best he decided I was.
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Sep 23, 2018 20:47
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Kai Tave posted:Right, I got that much even from the Kickstarter previews where one of the bits being previewed was a sample adventure where you as the resistance super-cyborgs were having to convince your herd of dumb idiot cats what to do with a bunch of immigrants. I don't think anybody here was necessarily confused on that point so much as why those particular factions were the ones chosen to be your allies of convenience in the first place. Are there other factions to choose from, like the aforementioned Black Panthers? Or is it just those four and it's basically up to you to go "actually I don't really feel like teaming up with the religious right and people who think Stalinist purges were actually cool and good?" Because if it's just those four groups then honestly it really does seem to me like he deliberately chose four factions he knew would get pushback in a game about fighting ambiguously-defined generic brand fascists so he could then turn around and play this "oho clearly you aren't interested in REAL revolution if you aren't willing to hold your nose and work with people who'd gladly throw you under the bus for being gay/poor/a minority, you just want to be ideological purists and call centrists mean names" card afterwards. Oh do tell. (☭ ͜ʖ ☭)
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Sep 23, 2018 21:00
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