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Nuns with Guns posted:I'd buy that more except killing "fascists" is right there in the game's title and he's constantly going on about how it's a fight against Nazis, and therefore a universal cause across the political spectrum. Or perhaps... you were the fascist all along? 
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Sep 23, 2018 21:07
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Payndz posted:For a game that literally touts killing fascists as a selling point in its subtitle, it seems to want to make you feel bad about doing so. and then john was a fascist
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Sep 23, 2018 21:11
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Yeah, reading Sigmata in the context of his attitudes and writing, I think it’s a bit poo poo and looking to justify respectability in revolution and resistance while cloaking it in direct action terms for gameplay purposes. Yes, marginalized groups will ally with other groups with different purposes and who don’t see eye-to-eye, but the issue is that the most visible element here (for the public) is the larger allies-of-convenience groups, rather than the people fighting, which changes the whole tone. Not to mention all the problems evident in the chosen groups. Hell, top of my head, here’s some other groups you could go with that are actual left-wing groups that might fight this kinda stuff: Union that gets integrated via concessions into acting as an arm of the state after making inroads, eco-activists who move from “preserve natural wonder” to “no people in woods, ever, because it’s better that way” (ecofascists are weird as hell), or even revolutionary journalism that is eventually co-opted for “access” and the belief that they’re still doing good by publishing weak thinkpieces about how, yes, the Skull-troops are eating babies, but one of them was fired for filming it! Hell, looking at how various groups have been absorbed and neutered gives you a good idea. I’m in a union, and my officers are actually pretty good, but I have friends in union shops where they’ve lost a lot of ground due to lovely reps. Work with that! Show why there’s the whole continual evaluation of ideas and debate! Yeah, it’s not as easy to make it into Saturday Morning They’re-Evil-And-We-Are-Correct Skull Fascists because the basics are actually appealing to people, but that’s how you deal with this poo poo - learn to see when things are going bad, organize, and fight that injustice. I know nuance and elfgames are worlds apart most of the time, but it’s not exactly hard to step out of a bubble and look at how you can deal in a way that doesn’t initially gamify appealing to insane survivalists and tankies.
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Sep 23, 2018 21:13
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I think this quote from the intro fiction says all you need to know:quote:When the fascist said the Christians were persecuted, Payndz posted:For a game that literally touts killing fascists as a selling point in its subtitle, it seems to want to make you feel bad about doing so. Hey the regime doesn't have death camps, just work camps that people who can no longer work disappear from, and people don't know or want to know about this, but maybe they would want genocide, but that's controversial? Also ostensible women and people of color can vote but both parties instead courted "white Christian nuclear family" ideals and whoever did it more grotesquely won which led to the Regime which is explicitly the Executive, which the legislature doesn't check even though there is often a vocal opposition party, also the Judiciary isn't even alluded to as a check, at least not in the first 80 pages of fiction. Anniversary fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 21:18
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Sigmate "Doctrine" posted:Just and Unjust Wars by Michael Walzer, Waging Insurgent Warfare by Seth G. Jones, Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism by Robert Pape, Resistance to Tyranny by Joseph P. Martino, Twitter and Tear Gas: The Power and Fragility of Networked Protest by Zeynep Tufekci, Burning Country: Syrians in Revolution and War by Robin Yassin-Kassab and Leila Al-Shami, The Ethics of Insurgency: A Critical Guide to Just Guerilla Warfare by Michael L. Gross, The Hacker Crackdown: Law and Disorder on the Electronic Frontier by Bruce Sterling, “Why Terrorism Does Not Work” by Max Abrahms, and the “Magic Diamond” framework by Gordon McCormick. We thank these authors for their brilliant insights and apologize in advance for simplifying (and potentially misrepresenting) their arguments in our attempt to make a game about radio-powered cyborg revolutionaries fighting a fascist military occupation. So this is the literature that's referenced as the "Doctrine" in the front of SIGMATA. Most are by US academics who have worked in or are adjacent to the US security state. These are the people thinking about how to either crush insurgencies, or empower the ones active in enemy countries. You're going to get a weird view of how to fight an insurgency in your home country if these are the people you are looking towards for liberation. Not on the list are any guerrilla fighters or popular theorists they've historically turned to; there's no Che, Mao, or even Sayyid Qutb. I believe Robin Yassin-Kassab and Leila Al-Shami profess anarchist leanings, but even their writing on the Syrian war blames insufficient US government support as the reason the rebels are losing. I had to look up Joseph P. Martino for this post, but he seems to be involved in survivalist militia websites so he's probably the closest thing to theory potential guerrillas are planning to use. I feel like this list provides a good insight about why the politics of the game are so weird.
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Sep 23, 2018 22:05
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The list of influences reads like something one would read to write a COIN-style boardgame, not a trpg about fighting pulp-style nazis in a Red-Dawn´ized ´85 America....makes you wonder if Volko Ruhnke could write a good game about this instead. Probably not, as the design goals between board games and trpgs are wildly different...
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Sep 23, 2018 22:24
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Anniversary posted:I think this quote from the intro fiction says all you need to know: WOW. Is this guy seriously trying to "shame" leftists for not embracing police and bible-thumpers? For real? No wonder he thinks there is too much purity policing in the left! He has no standards himself!
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Sep 23, 2018 22:38
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Also the systems used seem so mechanically rote that I am hella disappointed even if narrative they are neat in the sense that they are crazy permissive and accepting of the fiction as collaborative.paradoxGentleman posted:WOW. Yeah, that's his thing. Radical Empathy is what the chapter calls it, which is probably a thing. But the next time someone tells you the reason their a racist is because you call them one, remember the antifascist author who writes: quote:I’m telling Mr.Misfit posted:The list of influences reads like something one would read to write a COIN-style boardgame, not a trpg about fighting pulp-style nazis in a Red-Dawn´ized ´85 America....makes you wonder if Volko Ruhnke could write a good game about this instead. Probably not, as the design goals between board games and trpgs are wildly different... As an "intentionally political" work I'm going to suppose that those references were intentionally chosen. If not, then why were those the works chosen? Were there others omitted for space or fear of implication? Anniversary fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 22:41
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so if I buy that Stigmata game does my armband come in the mail later automatically or do I need to fill out a rebate form thing?
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Sep 23, 2018 23:36
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So to be clear, he never says who the fascists actually are, right? Like, it isn't the evangelicals or the cops or the corporations, it's just some vague Other group of US Nazis?
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Sep 23, 2018 23:47
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:So to be clear, he never says who the fascists actually are, right? Like, it isn't the evangelicals or the cops or the corporations, it's just some vague Other group of US Nazis? Those are explicitly your initial allies? I think? They've been alluded to in throw away lines 3 times so far and I'm just under halfway through I think. Inspite of their being ~80(!) pages of fiction up to this point I honestly couldn't tell you. It spins out of McCarthy winning the presidency. Then "both sides" court the white Christian nuclear family vote, which it calls "Real America" (or rather that's perceived as the Real America?). Even though women and PoC explicitly maintain the right to vote throughout. "The administration has absolutely no ideological nexus." "Real America is the nexus of American fascism." I don't know how you reconcile those statements and the claim that the Regime is fascist (because if it has no ideological nexus, but the white Christian nuclear family is the nexus of fascism, that sounds like an ideological nexus to my ignorant self.) The "Regime" is literally the executive, everyone else just goes with it? The Judiciary is never mentioned as a check, but the Legislature explicitly collaborates.
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Sep 23, 2018 23:55
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quote:[We] apologize in advance for simplifying (and potentially misrepresenting) their arguments in our attempt to make a game about radio-powered cyborg revolutionaries fighting a fascist military occupation. gently caress this game.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:01
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Anniversary posted:Those are explicitly your initial allies? I think? They've been alluded to in throw away lines 3 times so far and I'm just under halfway through I think. Inspite of their being ~80(!) pages of fiction up to this point I honestly couldn't tell you. Yeah, he keeps saying the fascists are apolotical which is frankly impossible, and always throws me for a loop.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:11
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Enola Gay-For-Pay posted:So to be clear, he never says who the fascists actually are, right? Like, it isn't the evangelicals or the cops or the corporations, it's just some vague Other group of US Nazis? The history of the setting is that McCarthy got elected president in 1960, started some more pointless proxy wars, was kind of bad but successfully seeded the mainstream consciousness with a fear of infiltrators toppling traditional America from within. This led to future politicians succefully running on MAGA platforms and merging the police and military. Some of the MAGAlings regretted that and that's the origin of the rebel rightwing militiamen, I guess. But like I said before the current regime are a bunch of oligarchs who coopted the fascism to rob the public coffers while everone watches and chants "Own the libs!!!" Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 00:13
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I mean Fascism has never been entirely coherent as an ideology- it co-opts a lot of little things to help sell itself. It’s right wing but it’ll implement some social programs to keep the plebs happy (and co-opts class rhetoric by placing the blame for inequality on an outside “elite”). The swastika is a symbol in Buddhism and some Native American lore but they ruined it. They discard whatever’s really threatening to their authority but keep whatever looks nice. The Nazis called themselves “national socialists” because socialism was starting to look nice in wake of the Weimar Republic not working, even attracted a few actual socialists, then killed them in the Night of Long Knives. That’s why debating with fascists never works. You cannot point out logical flaws in their reasoning because logic isn’t the point. They have no code.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:26
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So if the socialist party becomes too powerful, they become Nazis.  V Dude likes to use libertarian buzzwords all over, and its kinda weirding me out. Anniversary fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 00:45
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This guy seems convinced that there was some organized campaign to try and smear his game but if you go look through the Kickstarter comments 99% of them are full of eager anticipation with a handful of people questioning his decisions and I've yet to come across any real significant attempts at takedowns via reviews (most of which seem to be positive) so either he's completely full of poo poo or he really is talking about posters on Something Awful Dot Com saying his game is bad.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:50
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Anniversary posted:So if the socialist party becomes too powerful, they become Nazis. You joke, but this is what a lot of people in conservative America basically get taught.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:52
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S.J. posted:You joke, but this is what a lot of people in conservative America basically get taught. And the author seemingly agrees. That this is true in his fictional alt-history game. Kai Tave posted:This guy seems convinced that there was some organized campaign to try and smear his game but if you go look through the Kickstarter comments 99% of them are full of eager anticipation with a handful of people questioning his decisions and I've yet to come across any real significant attempts at takedowns via reviews (most of which seem to be positive) so either he's completely full of poo poo or he really is talking about posters on Something Awful Dot Com saying his game is bad. We are a CIA front after all.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:57
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Maxwell Lord posted:I mean Fascism has never been entirely coherent as an ideology- it co-opts a lot of little things to help sell itself. It’s right wing but it’ll implement some social programs to keep the plebs happy (and co-opts class rhetoric by placing the blame for inequality on an outside “elite”). The swastika is a symbol in Buddhism and some Native American lore but they ruined it. It's true that facism is as variable and vague of a concept as possible, and that'd be super interesting to explore in a game, but he also keeps drawing pretty specific comparisons to Nazism and that has defined tropes and ideological notions in the American consciousness. He even borrows a few for his game world, but still seems uncomfortable committing to a full Wolfenstein II US for some reason.
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Sep 24, 2018 01:03
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Creating a fuckin' leftist branded RPG and ensuring it's ideologically impure in exactly the way that inspires internet leftists to bloviate about it is some next level marketing. If the game had been what you want, you never would have spent this time talking about it - this was the point. I kinda wanna pay for it out of respect even if the idea of playing an RPG about modern politics sounds worse than FATAL. The tweets probably coincide with a dip in sales - gotta get some fresh folks from twitter in there hate-reading.
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Sep 24, 2018 01:57
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Creating a fuckin' leftist branded RPG and ensuring it's ideologically impure in exactly the way that inspires internet leftists to bloviate about it is some next level marketing. If the game had been what you want, you never would have spent this time talking about it - this was the point. I kinda wanna pay for it out of respect even if the idea of playing an RPG about modern politics sounds worse than FATAL. I don't think this dude is a puppetmaster. And I don't think he means for this product to really appeal to leftists. e: Maybe I'm a big ole idiot though? Anniversary fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 02:00
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"If something was actually good nobody would bother talking about it" is some next level galaxy braining.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:13
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Kai Tave posted:This guy seems convinced that there was some organized campaign to try and smear his game but if you go look through the Kickstarter comments 99% of them are full of eager anticipation with a handful of people questioning his decisions and I've yet to come across any real significant attempts at takedowns via reviews (most of which seem to be positive) so either he's completely full of poo poo or he really is talking about posters on Something Awful Dot Com saying his game is bad. I didn't look too closely, but the reception seems mostly positive over on RPG.net in the one thread on the game, and it's not even a huge one. SA could be the mote in his eye.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:14
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Well my hypothesis would be that he's not trying to appeal to leftists, but rather their desire to type many words about things that don't like. People are driven nuts by things that purport to represent their views but fail to, much moreso than actual opposition views - we inoculate ourselves against those. This got way more discussion here than, say, varg's white supremacist game. Maybe I'm an optimist who sees the best in people, but it's pretty drat perfect in that respect. Offend leftists into advertising the product far and wide, sell to the liberals who normally just read their tweets and seethe.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:16
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Kai Tave posted:"If something was actually good nobody would bother talking about it" is some next level galaxy braining. That's the thing - the alternative isn't a good RPG, it's a bad rpg with good politics. The game part was never going to be good or worthy of discussion.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:17
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Creating a fuckin' leftist branded RPG and ensuring it's ideologically impure in exactly the way that inspires internet leftists to bloviate about it is some next level marketing. If the game had been what you want, you never would have spent this time talking about it - this was the point. I kinda wanna pay for it out of respect even if the idea of playing an RPG about modern politics sounds worse than FATAL. lol this isn't an ideological purity test and those tweets aren't a 5th dimensional mental marketing. You've been spending too long modding GBS if you think every well-meaning-but-oblivious white guy printing an RPG book is running around with a sevenfold veil of ironic detachment and a tome of elder mercenary marketing tactics. Given the history of tabletop publishing, its safer (and healthier) to assume it's just another RPG with a wobbly commitment to its premise and a defensive creator reassuring himself to his social network. e- Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This got way more discussion here than, say, varg's white supremacist game. MYFAROG is 3 years old and written by a very open nazi. What exactly needs to be discussed? We don't constantly revisit FATAL or RAHOWA, either. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 02:22
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You kinda figure that a dude who ended up writing a game that appeals hard to liberals is probably really a liberal.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:22
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:That's the thing - the alternative isn't a good RPG, it's a bad rpg with good politics. The game part was never going to be good or worthy of discussion. Honestly, I can see your argument toward it being a cash grab. It does some neat retrotechthriller descriptions of powers, but most of the rest of the narrative is pretty dicey not just ideologically, but both conceptually and with regards to consistency. And he coulda just made it PbtA and made his mechanics, and keep the narrative elements, be a lot better than roll 5 dice, d10s equal to attribute, d6s for the rest. 6+ is a Success, 1 is an AntiSuccess. And then uses for those are: Deal 5 Damage +1/S and take 5 Damage Deal 1 Damage per S Heal 1 Damage per S from you / an ally Like its new(?) but not original, if that makes sense. gradenko_2000 posted:You kinda figure that a dude who ended up writing a game that appeals hard to liberals is probably really a liberal. Honestly I think he's libertarian adjacent based on language use and some textual elements.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:27
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I kinda wanna pay for it out of respect even if the idea of playing an RPG about modern politics sounds worse than FATAL. if you really wanted to blow your cash on a game just because a dude is capable of some really obnoxious marketing, Zweihander is right there
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Sep 24, 2018 02:39
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Libertad! posted:Oh do tell. (☭ ͜ʖ ☭) I don't remember this well, but it involved talking your allies out of genociding a bunch of refugees and only killing the loyalist refugees? Or maybe that's a different one. Or maybe I imagined this one? My memory is bad, yo. Mors Rattus posted:Nice to know his chat with me a while ago about issues I had and him admitting he hosed up .in a few places was bullshit. Have you posted about this / willing to share this? I'm working on an F&F and as much as I've been posting how frustrating I find some things he's done with this work I kinda want to have more perspective. gradenko_2000 posted:if you really wanted to blow your cash on a game just because a dude is capable of some really obnoxious marketing, Zweihander is right there That's #ZweihanderRPG to you. 
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Sep 24, 2018 02:51
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It's in my twitter DMs and I could dig out screenshots but I posted the gist of it last time this game came up.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:52
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Has White Wolf said who their next CEO will be?
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Sep 24, 2018 02:53
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Mors Rattus posted:It's in my twitter DMs and I could dig out screenshots but I posted the gist of it last time this game came up. That's fair. I thought I remembered reading something about it from you.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:53
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Kavak posted:Has White Wolf said who their next CEO will be? The creator of the hit indie RPG MyFAROG himself, Varg Vikernes.
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Sep 24, 2018 02:58
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Plutonis posted:The creator of the hit indie RPG MyFAROG himself, Varg Vikernes. Bringing things full circle, time is an illusion, buy gold etc. Something to point out, while we're discussing whether Sigmata guy is a secret marketing chessmaster, is that when the project was first linked here people were actually pretty excited about it based on the immediately presented premise of resistance cyborgs fighting fascists. It wasn't until after it came out that the game was more interested in this weird "team up with people who are a bad day away from becoming the fascists themselves" deal that opinions soured. I think it's making some assumptions only with the benefit of hindsight that the game was obviously never going to be good even if the politics weren't dumb, because if this guy hadn't made such a big deal out of having to wrangle the religious right and tankies to try to (ethically) smash the (non-descript) state that a bunch more people here, myself included, would probably have gone in on the project. Hi yes it's me, one of the 16 people who pulled their pledge from the Kickstarter. For the record, nobody had to go to great lengths to convince me to do this.
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Sep 24, 2018 03:05
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Kai Tave posted:Hi yes it's me, one of the 16 people who pulled their pledge from the Kickstarter. 16 Angry Democrats! It's too good a show to miss.
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Sep 24, 2018 03:11
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I think the author of Sigmata is being earnest and a person speaking out when their political beliefs are being attacked is a fine reaction. I just think he has bad politics. Part of what makes it interesting is I think the focus on the US theories about counter-insurgency and the popular US coverage of Syria seems to have influenced gameplay. It seems like in Sigmata, players are encouraged to be "moderate rebels" who will overthrow the regime by earning the trust of the international community all while outmaneuvering extremists in the movement. This idea is sort of ridiculous as picking up a gun and participating in a civil war is basically the opposite of what a US liberal would consider moderate. The concept doesn't really exist in real life and it seems like it makes for a lovely role-playing game when it's codified in the mechanics. Honestly, the author of this game seems to have the sort of politics I had for a few years so I get where he's coming from, and I'm trying to restrain myself from posting too much about why I disagree with it. Otherwise I'd basically be posting a tankie's Fatal and Friends review of the game.
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Sep 24, 2018 03:37
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Atrocious Joe posted:It seems like in Sigmata, players are encouraged to be "moderate rebels" who will overthrow the regime by earning the trust of the international community all while outmaneuvering extremists in the movement. This idea is sort of ridiculous as picking up a gun and participating in a civil war is basically the opposite of what a US liberal would consider moderate. The concept doesn't really exist in real life and it seems like it makes for a lovely role-playing game when it's codified in the mechanics. the author probably also believes that there are still "moderate rebels" to be found in Syria in the first place, which is in itself a rather ridiculous assumption
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Sep 24, 2018 03:43
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Kai Tave posted:"If something was actually good nobody would bother talking about it" is some next level galaxy braining. On the other hand is does distract from the actual rules, which fall squarely into "I've only ever played D&D and think I have revolutionary insights into TTRPG mechanics, which mostly amounts to calling things by pretentious names."
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Sep 24, 2018 04:22
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