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I feel compelled to point out that while Zak S and the RPGPundit are terrible people, they are also terrible game designers. Do I need to link the Zak S rule challenge?
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Sep 24, 2018 04:44
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I feel compelled to point out that while Zak S and the RPGPundit are terrible people, they are also terrible game designers. They are grogs that thought that everything past od&d was unneeded. Of course they are awful at it.
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Sep 24, 2018 04:46
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Let's not forget the last time this came up MonsterEnvy was seriously about to go ask Mearls if he believed Zak S or the Pundit were bad people, and in doing so throw all of their harassment campaign victims under the bus AGAIN. MonsterEnvy is completely unwilling to accept any criticism about Mearls, and is intentionally blind to it up to and including twisting criticisms of Mearls into deflections or outright denial of guilt. He is dangerous and is willing to intentionally injure and harm marginalized people to support his favourite edition of D&D.
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Sep 24, 2018 04:51
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I don't care
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Sep 24, 2018 04:53
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I feel compelled to point out that while Zak S and the RPGPundit are terrible people, they are also terrible game designers. If I asked for a quick gist, how much would I regret it?
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Sep 24, 2018 04:54
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Seriouspost how does one get people to buy in for another game anyway? I feel like there's a certain class of person for whom D&D's renewed visibility makes it the thing they seek and want for more than just familiarity reasons. And both my groups are made of those people. I don't know how I could ever get these folks to buy in on, like, Secret Armies or Spirit of the Century, etc even at the conceptual level, let alone on the level of "here's some new materials to buy and mechanics to learn." And I feel like D&D's network effects are amplified by the expectation that campaigns are a long-lasting thing. They either have to implode or complete before most people would be interested in trying something else.
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Sep 24, 2018 04:56
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Seriouspost how does one get people to buy in for another game anyway? I feel like there's a certain class of person for whom D&D's renewed visibility makes it the thing they seek and want for more than just familiarity reasons. And both my groups are made of those people. I don't know how I could ever get these folks to buy in on, like, Secret Armies or Spirit of the Century, etc even at the conceptual level, let alone on the level of "here's some new materials to buy and mechanics to learn." Figure out what your group would want instead of 5e D&D. If they want more tactical, look at 4e. If they want classic D&D, look at BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia D&D. If they want something more narrative, try Dungeon World, Fellowship, or 13th Age. The first step of getting buy in is identifying what people actually want to play and responding to that. If you can sell a replacement game as not just "D&D, but" or "D&D and different because" and instead respond to particular likes or dislikes from your players, you're going to get far more buy in from the get go. Sell your actual game that is going to be customized for your players, and not just the system. There's a great little book called Odyssey: The Complete Guide to System Management https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/116551/Odyssey-The-Complete-Game-Masters-Guide-to-Campaign-Management that individually breaks down assessing what your players want, what you want, how to suggest new games, and how to make them stick. It'll also explain when to end your current game should you wish to do something else. If your players are responding to Actual Plays, find a good one from the system you want to try (or something close) and show that to them. Most any system you're going to do as your first step outside of 5e is gonna have something out there.
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Sep 24, 2018 05:03
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Seriouspost how does one get people to buy in for another game anyway? I feel like there's a certain class of person for whom D&D's renewed visibility makes it the thing they seek and want for more than just familiarity reasons. And both my groups are made of those people. I don't know how I could ever get these folks to buy in on, like, Secret Armies or Spirit of the Century, etc even at the conceptual level, let alone on the level of "here's some new materials to buy and mechanics to learn." This is actually more complex than it sounds. People learn about D&D from other media and start to conceptualize characters based on those ideas - they see what a 'ranger' or a 'wizard' is in D&D context and think great, I want to do that! I honestly find non-fantasy media easier to get people into since they suddenly aren't thinking about it with the fantasy/RPG goggles and might instead try out an X-Files-like WoD game or do some Cthulu poo poo or play Mad Max in AW. EDIT: Don't underestimate the power of the familiar either. I've found a lot of people are deeply nervous about playing new games with new groups, and having even the faintest grasp of what is going on can be comforting. "Read this book, watch this vlog you weren't already interested in!" is generally not fun for people who aren't already doing it. Mendrian fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 05:23
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Mendrian posted:This is actually more complex than it sounds. This is genuinely important things to know. It's kind of a nightmare to get something that isn't coming from one of these touchstones running. It's why D&D5e is booming so well, that podcast/AP scene is thriving like crazy to the point that people from wildly different social groups are all being told about it. I feel for a lot of these people its less about playing a roleplaying game and more about playing the game thats taking place in the media they are consuming. I mean thats fine of course but it means its not necessarily possible to get them into something else, especially not right out the gate.
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Sep 24, 2018 06:02
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gradenko_2000 posted:One of the credited consultants for D&D 5th Edition is a serial harasser of LGBT people, and another is an alt-right shithead. When the consultants were accused of this, Mearls tried to crowdsource proof of it, and then sent the submissions back to the consultants themselves to ask them if they were true, which has lead to at least one person having had to pull out of the industry entirely on the back of a concerted campaign of harassment that was reignited by Mearls himself allowing them to be re-targeted. Serf posted:it does if you want to know if the people making the game are subhuman dreck UP AND ADAM posted:I don't care I came into this thread completely ignorant of the issues and history. It's obvious there is a lot of venom attached to that history and for what I read I can understand why the emotional investment is there. However, monsterenvy is right in so far as: for an outsider or newcomer, the venom lingering from this doxxing / harrassment case does make you look like assholes when you mistake someones enthusiasm for an elfgame for nazi apologism. It's possible to understand that Mearls is an rear end in a top hat and people in this thread were personally affected by that - and still play 5e with friends because that's the game you enjoy and have already invested in. If you think the TTRPG industry is a fascist cesspit then I applaud you for opting for different games and encouraging others to do the same but meanwhile most of the clothes we wear were made in some third world sweatshop you'd consider hell on earth. The world is hosed and we still have to live in it. If you don't personally know the sweatshop workers maybe you don't give a gently caress like you do about this case. So thanks for informing me of the different better games and the history of Mearls. It seems to me he approached the problem of accusations of harrassment in a lazy and negligent way and I'm sorry your friend was hurt. For what it's worth I think the anti 5e crusade is more effectively sold when you demonstrate solid 5e knowledge and compare to other rules systems than attacking 5e fanboys. That just reeks of the venom involved in the history which undermines the case for playing different games because it's easy to write off otherwise reasonable arguments as emotionally motivated.
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Sep 24, 2018 06:12
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clusterfuck posted:For what it's worth I think the anti 5e crusade is more effectively sold when you demonstrate solid 5e knowledge and compare to other rules systems than attacking 5e fanboys. That just reeks of the venom involved in the history which undermines the case for playing different games because it's easy to write off otherwise reasonable arguments as emotionally motivated. I really don't know how else to say this, but I've written extensively about how 5e works (and doesn't work), and I don't think the rest of the thread regulars are inexperienced with the system either. The reason why we frequent the thread at all is that when someone does come into the thread to ask about "this is what I'm doing, how can I make it better?", you can actually get an answer from people who've already done that before. (and the reason why we're more than a little down on this game is that we also understand that it's a failing of 5e that it keeps maneuvering people into that space, when ideally you either wouldn't be so lost, or the rules would set you straight)
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Sep 24, 2018 06:55
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KingFisher posted:Any of you nerds good at converting 3.5 systems and such to 5th? You might find the link on this page useful. I haven't read it carefully but would most likely give it a go.
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Sep 24, 2018 06:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:I really don't know how else to say this, but I've written extensively about how 5e works (and doesn't work), and I don't think the rest of the thread regulars are inexperienced with the system either. Ah, sorry for confusion - absolutely you have, it's very helpful and I have often said that in the past. I actually deleted a sentence from my post which said something like "I'm amazed how well many posters here know 5e while they also hate the game." - but I thought it wasn't really helpful. To be clear, many posters here have an excellent knowledge of 5e which they share frequently. There is also an undercurrent of anger about the doxxing / Mearls history. The post you quoted is intended as meaning: the knowledge of 5e rules and other system rules on display in this thread serves the purpose of winning gamers to other games more than the tendency to attack 5e fanboys. clusterfuck fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 07:10
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lightrook posted:If I asked for a quick gist, how much would I regret it? So on another forum I frequent Zak S followed the google alert about himself (someone reposted his blog entry) and made the claim that he was SO GOOD at rules and his houserules worked that he would accept anybody's challenge to make a rule. The Challenge posted:Some people around here want a "Social Currency" system. A way of representing and recording gratitude, fear, and honorable debts. "Zak's answer posted:Assign a given transaction a bonus and an "expiration", like "This is worth +something on your next charisma rolls for a month. How's that sound, player?" The forum ripped him a new rear end in a top hat for failing to meet some of the requirements (such as heralds) and making a rule that required as much adjudication as having no rule at all. Zak flipped his poo poo, invented ex post facto rulings, and basically screamed obscenities at everyone. The end results were: -no one on the form uses the words "Zak S" but just calls him "shitmuffin" -someone made a Hitler Downfall meme about the incident, which I'm not sure I'm allowed to link by forum rules. TheGreatEvilKing fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 07:11
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Gonna just say responding to arguments that people should be aware of actual notable harm people have enacted around their luxury entertainment with insisting we’d care about sweatshops if we knew a worker personally is an extreme scumfuck of an argument.
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Sep 24, 2018 08:08
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clusterfuck posted:I came into this thread completely ignorant of the issues and history. It's obvious there is a lot of venom attached to that history and for what I read I can understand why the emotional investment is there. However, monsterenvy is right in so far as: for an outsider or newcomer, the venom lingering from this doxxing / harrassment case does make you look like assholes when you mistake someones enthusiasm for an elfgame for nazi apologism. The thing is that the whole garbage with Mearls et al doesn't actually factor in discussions about the quality of the game, and in fact is tacitly ignored by the thread until either someone tries to explicitly vouch for Mike Mearls' character, or some rear end in a top hat decides to bait. His Mearls apologism is the major contributing factor why no longstanding thread regular will stand up for MonsterEnvy, but his is a very singular case of a garbage poster and, again, conversation with him is kept civil until he decides to go and play with the poop because he can't just loving help himself.
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Sep 24, 2018 08:12
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clusterfuck posted:I came into this thread completely ignorant of the issues and history. It's obvious there is a lot of venom attached to that history and for what I read I can understand why the emotional investment is there. However, monsterenvy is right in so far as: for an outsider or newcomer, the venom lingering from this doxxing / harrassment case does make you look like assholes when you mistake someones enthusiasm for an elfgame for nazi apologism.
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Sep 24, 2018 08:22
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FRINGE posted:It doesnt help that TG was the home of one of the internet-wide DnD troll crusades that made SA infamous as being "those assholes" everywhere else. (The long grognards.txt harrassment/bragging campaign.) Some of the loudest people here were a part of that and dont like talking about it when they are whining about the other assholes. Okay, I've had to google this though I'd vaguely heard of it. Fun times readings I guess... Mr. Maltose posted:Gonna just say responding to arguments that people should be aware of actual notable harm people have enacted around their luxury entertainment with insisting we’d care about sweatshops if we knew a worker personally is an extreme scumfuck of an argument. I hear you but we are all just privileged arseholes arguing about our luxury entertainment. Again, sorry your friend was hurt by it. Mearls strikes me as a genuine fuckhead (in charge of a genuinely successful product). I hope that's enough genuflections for you. Sometimes I struggle with SA's violent swings between hardened sarcasm and profound earnestness. The response to korebans post is a good example of this. Conspiratiorist posted:The thing is that the whole garbage with Mearls et al doesn't actually factor in discussions about the quality of the game, and in fact is tacitly ignored by the thread until either someone tries to explicitly vouch for Mike Mearls' character, or some rear end in a top hat decides to bait. Understood. Just because it isn't mentioned doesn't mean it isn't a motivating factor. I don't think it's controversial to point out there is a crusade in this thread to get people away from 5e and into other systems and that crusade is motivated by both reasonable arguments about rules as well as Mike Mearls being a shithead who doesn't deserve your money. However, koreban also pointed this out just a little more flippantly and people are losing their poo poo.
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Sep 24, 2018 09:05
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FRINGE posted:It doesnt help that TG was the home of one of the internet-wide DnD troll crusades that made SA infamous as being "those assholes" everywhere else. (The long grognards.txt harrassment/bragging campaign.) Some of the loudest people here were a part of that and dont like talking about it when they are whining about the other assholes. man people reposted things that others said in public and made fun of them, what assholes
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Sep 24, 2018 09:25
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clusterfuck posted:I don't think it's controversial to point out there is a crusade in this thread to get people away from 5e and into other systems and that crusade is motivated by both reasonable arguments about rules as well as Mike Mearls being a shithead who doesn't deserve your money. Okay, you're partly right, but you're fundamentally misunderstanding something here: By and large, people don't decry Mearls just because they feel personally slighted by what he did re the Zak S situation. They criticize Mearls because he's a spineless shithead - as strongly evidenced by how he handled that particular situation - and along with his work history, this pattern of behavior is an important context when discussing the past and continuing development of D&D given his leading role in such. You know RAW vs RAI arguments? Well, you inevitably have to insert Mearls into those, because so many bad design decisions can be directly tied to him, and his fingerprints are likewise all over every newly released supplement, and him being a terrible loving developer does nothing but cast doubts on the future quality of the franchise.
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Sep 24, 2018 11:29
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Conspiratiorist posted:Okay, you're partly right, but you're fundamentally misunderstanding something here: I think it's pretty clear that people's opinions of Mearls as a person are informing their views of the quality of 5e. it's interesting that you've literally contradicted your last post on the matter. Conspiratiorist posted:The thing is that the whole garbage with Mearls et al doesn't actually factor in discussions about the quality of the game It's either: The thing is that the whole garbage with Mearls et al doesn't actually factor in discussions about the quality of the game or it's: Mearls pattern of behavior is an important context when discussing the past and continuing development of D&D given his leading role in such but you can't have both. I think you really mean the latter.
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Sep 24, 2018 12:26
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MonsterEnvy posted:None of that has anything to do with the actual game. Hahaha what the hell. gently caress you, Nazi. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 24, 2018 12:27
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But anyway, I get the distinction between loathing Mearls out of personal spite and loathing Mearls for his personal failings which continue to affect the operation of 5e. I'll save you the typing.
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Sep 24, 2018 12:33
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clusterfuck posted:I hear you but we are all just privileged arseholes arguing about our luxury entertainment. Again, sorry your friend was hurt by it. Mearls strikes me as a genuine fuckhead (in charge of a genuinely successful product). I hope that's enough genuflections for you. sounds like you don't know what the gently caress you're talking about because you still don't get it
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Sep 24, 2018 12:37
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Serf posted:sounds like you don't know what the gently caress you're talking about because you still don't get it Perhaps you don't like the soviet regime?
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Sep 24, 2018 12:48
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I’d compare this thread to a gulag, certainly. (gently caress Zak and Mearls by association)
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Sep 24, 2018 13:01
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Mearls makes an excellent Emmanuel Goldstein, it's true.
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Sep 24, 2018 13:09
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clusterfuck posted:Perhaps you don't like the soviet regime? i dunno what this means because its very dumb but downplaying what happened with zak and mearls as just someone being "hurt" is a lovely thing to do
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Sep 24, 2018 13:13
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Being doxxed sucks rear end and is really scary. I think this entire incident is a legitimate reason to not want to play 5th ed. I mean, I still play it anyway, but "folks who made this are assholes, I don't want to support them" is a fine decision to make.
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Sep 24, 2018 13:22
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/\/\/\/\ agree. Serf posted:i dunno what this means because its very dumb but downplaying what happened with zak and mearls as just someone being "hurt" is a lovely thing to do Yeah righto Serf, good luck with that. As I said I think the tack of enticing people towards alternate systems to 5e such as Shadow of the Demon Lord is far superior to this tendency towards personal attacks. clusterfuck fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Sep 24, 2018 |
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Sep 24, 2018 13:30
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Once everyone gets bored with the trappings of 5e organically pitch them another game. I already have a couple of my more observant players on board for a Blades in the Dark campaign set in the same world. I just need to get comfortable with the system.
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Sep 24, 2018 13:34
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clusterfuck posted:Yeah righto Serf, good luck with that. As I said I think the tack of enticing people towards alternate systems to 5e such as Shadow of the Demon Lord is far superior to this tendency towards personal attacks. please don't encourage serf to talk more about sotdl anymore than he already does.
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Sep 24, 2018 13:34
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clusterfuck posted:/\/\/\/\ i'm not here to convert anyone to sotdl at the moment, just posting truth
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Sep 24, 2018 13:36
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I'm playing a game of 5e tomorrow. It will probably be fun, but it's likely because I have a traumatic brain injury and my parents were related. As someone who pretty recently started following this thread. Reading solid criticism and ways to fix certain issues I might be having with the system are interesting. As well as some insight into Mearl's judgement and character. But I think everyone who's been in here for a long time has been stewing in 5e complaints so long that a lot of the responses sound overly toxic or curmudgeonly. Looking forward to learning more about the 13th age and some other systems but this thread has a real stink on it. Might as well just rename it to D&D NEXT: The lovely One.
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Sep 24, 2018 13:43
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Serf posted:truth
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Sep 24, 2018 13:45
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My biggest issue I'm angry about d&d right now is my DM houseruled how Disengage works (whichever action choice allows you to move without getting opportunity attacks) and it totally screwed my rogue. 
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Sep 24, 2018 13:48
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Thalantos posted:My biggest issue I'm angry about d&d right now is my DM houseruled how Disengage works (whichever action choice allows you to move without getting opportunity attacks) and it totally screwed my rogue. What's the houserule?
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Sep 24, 2018 13:49
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hangedman1984 posted:What's the houserule? You can only use disengage if you are literally retreating from the situation.
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Sep 24, 2018 13:51
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Thalantos posted:You can only use disengage if you are literally retreating from the situation. thats stupid, and yeah, kinda hoses over the rogue's cunning action.
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Sep 24, 2018 13:53
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clusterfuck posted:Serious. Business. oh totally, doxxing and harassment is no big deal
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Sep 24, 2018 13:53
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