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Dawgstar posted:I doubt they'd do it, but it'd be kinda interesting to see what they'd do with Werewolf and Mage equivalents. When I asked Neall, who dev'd Beckett, about this, he basically said 'never again, the first one nearly killed me.' I'm not surprised, given that he had to read all the novels in a row, even the bad ones. Too bad, though; it would be cool.
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Sep 25, 2018 17:57
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I really like the God-Machine a lot as a concept, and it is a great way to explain away all kinds of weirdness. Demon seems like it would be a really fun game with the right group of players, but I always worry about the level of buy in that all the players would need to really pull off serious espionage.
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Sep 25, 2018 18:00
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I really like the God-Machine a lot as a concept, and it is a great way to explain away all kinds of weirdness. Demon seems like it would be a really fun game with the right group of players, but I always worry about the level of buy in that all the players would need to really pull off serious espionage. I freaking agree. the idea of god being an Ai is one of my favorite concepts in fiction.
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Sep 25, 2018 18:06
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the god machine uses humans but humans are explicitly defined as existing independently iirc. its not simulating reality, its a very real, v physical distributed entity that happens to know ways of cheating reality. if the god machine were to be taken out, well, maybe society would collapse, maybe it wouldnt actually change much about the average persons life, maybe the process of doing so breaks the veil and things get really interesting but humanitys still trucking along its not god as a machine, its a machine that has godlike power and ineffability. v different imo
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Sep 25, 2018 18:08
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Fruity20 posted:I freaking agree. the idea of god being an Ai is one of my favorite concepts in fiction. The God-Machine is not God though. It's an entity that might be like God and is god-like in its capabilities, but it's manifest in this material realm and plane of existence though it might have ways to reach out into other ones. It's not Magic, like Mage or other splats, but it can do things with reality like Mages can. How? 
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Sep 25, 2018 18:12
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imo its just v old and v big and has figured out how to cheat the universe in myriad ways w all that time and all that mind
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Sep 25, 2018 18:15
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I really like the God-Machine a lot as a concept, and it is a great way to explain away all kinds of weirdness. Demon seems like it would be a really fun game with the right group of players, but I always worry about the level of buy in that all the players would need to really pull off serious espionage. I'd say (from experience) that the most important thing is to not get hung up on serious espionage. Because then you end up rotating between four people doing wholly independent things save for the occasional phonecall isntead of a cohseive group experience. And not sweating it works, because the thing about Demon is that you don't actually have to be all that serious about the espionage. You can throw yourself into situations that would be suicide for a mortal spy because unlike them you can take a bullet to the face/teleport away/mind control the enemy thugs into letting you go/transform into a giant monster and kill every living and non-living being within a five-mile radius.
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Sep 25, 2018 18:28
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The Gangster Computer God.
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Sep 25, 2018 18:29
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I really like the God-Machine a lot as a concept, and it is a great way to explain away all kinds of weirdness. Demon seems like it would be a really fun game with the right group of players, but I always worry about the level of buy in that all the players would need to really pull off serious espionage. As others have said, you can always eschew serious espionage (it's more window dressing anyway). The GM guide for Demon has a great section on spy fiction and how to use it and adapt to various flavors of it - everything from James Bond and Metal Gear Solid to Sandbaggers and Sarah Connor Chronicles. I'm personally a fan of the loud, flamboyant MGS inspired flavor, it goes really great with biomechanical horrors pretending to be people and the dorky codenames. Speaking of, I'm brain-storming up a Twin Peaks inspired Demon game that I'm really excited to run. It seems like a perfect pairing given Demon's focus and themes. The Unlife Aquatic fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 18:36
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I like the power that lets you go Equilibrium on everything in sight. There is a problem with games where the baddy is ultimately some cosmic force, but you're told to keep running on the treadmill prepared for you instead of really fighting it. (The chief example I can think of is SLA Industries.) But I don't think most CoD or even WoD are built for that battle for the fate of the universe. But you can, y'know, stop the God Machine or the Sabbat or whatever from murdering tons of people and turning your city into a hellhole. My preferred take on the God Machine is that it's somebody's attempt to make a clockwork God. Destroying it once and for all could have some bad collateral effects, namely strengthening the Abyss, but it would unequivocally be a good thing. The best part is that the world wouldn't notice. People would notice stuff like the number of child abductions dropping, that weird chain of ice cream stores that nobody seems to actually visit closing down, no more weird lights in the sky down by the observatory...that high strangeness dissipating.
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Sep 25, 2018 19:00
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I would play a Loyalist Angels game where you are basically working for Friend Computer, honestly.
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Sep 25, 2018 19:06
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The problem with Demon is less the espionage itself and more the inherent paranoia you’re supposed to inhabit and exhibit toward other PCs. There’s no reason you can’t do a Mission:Impossible ensemble infiltration/heist with all parties involved except suspicion.
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Sep 25, 2018 19:07
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Basic Chunnel posted:The problem with Demon is less the espionage itself and more the inherent paranoia you’re supposed to inhabit and exhibit toward other PCs. There’s no reason you can’t do a Mission:Impossible ensemble infiltration/heist with all parties involved except suspicion. Yeah, I think expecting chronic paranoia towards other PCs is a bit of a step too far. It changes the table dynamic in an unhealthy way. But there's still plenty of ways to keep people paranoid.
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Sep 25, 2018 19:10
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We started out furtively texting each other and never being seen in the same place because oh boy wouldn't that compromise our covers and arranging meetups and dropoffs and having terrible problem dividing "screen"time in a fun, equitable fashion until we said "actually you know what? gently caress it, they're all friends and hang out in lovely bars daring each other to do hot wing challenges" and things were much improved
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Sep 25, 2018 19:21
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I prefer that games where that's going to be a major factor be mechanically built around it, like say Cold City/Hot War. I could definitely get into a cross-Compact Hunter game where each player has an organizational higher-up pushing them to do things at cross-purposes with their mission.
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Sep 25, 2018 19:27
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You're thinking too small, win hot-wing eating contests to boost your cover and integrate yourself further into the local community.
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Sep 25, 2018 19:29
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Basic Chunnel posted:You’re not supposed to defeat the GM or the Exarchs Terrorforge posted:It's not the default assumption, but the Chronicles blue book talks about the possibility, including an example scenario that ends with the option to permanently lock the God-Machine out of reality. It's kind of a sliding scale. Mage is probably the most pessimistic; it presents it as the in-character goal of various Mage ideologies, but the actual situation as described in Imperial Mysteries and just in general means you'd basically have to fight everyone at once including the most powerful members of your own faction in order to make it happen, because no one with real power is actually invested in change; it's practically impossible. Demon mentions that you "probably" won't destroy the God-Machine or close off its access to Earth "except as the conclusion to a long chronicle." (Not quite a verbatim quote, but if you really want I can try and track down the page number and exact wording.) There's also a high-Primum Demon NPC in Enemy Action who's presented as having something in his possession so existentially dangerous to the God-Machine that it leaves him alone. Basically, it's difficult, and long-term, but it's not beyond the scope of the game. And then of course Geist straight-up goes "yeah, no, fixing the Underworld is straight-up the default endgame for a chronicle."
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Sep 25, 2018 20:05
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Halloween Jack posted:The best part is that the world wouldn't notice. People would notice stuff like the number of child abductions dropping, that weird chain of ice cream stores that nobody seems to actually visit closing down, no more weird lights in the sky down by the observatory...that high strangeness dissipating. Well also in the sense that if one of those giant world ending events the God-Machine deals with comes along at that point everyone dies, although I suppose they still wouldn't notice the difference. On account of being dead.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:09
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It is easier to imagine the end of all life on earth than to imagine a relatively modest change in
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Sep 25, 2018 20:10
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I had this idea for a chronicle with crossover characters where they travel between worlds to fix the God-Machine. Very inspired by The Dark Tower.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Demon mentions that you "probably" won't destroy the God-Machine or close off its access to Earth "except as the conclusion to a long chronicle." (Not quite a verbatim quote, but if you really want I can try and track down the page number and exact wording.) There's also a high-Primum Demon NPC in Enemy Action who's presented as having something in his possession so existentially dangerous to the God-Machine that it leaves him alone. Basically, it's difficult, and long-term, but it's not beyond the scope of the game. Demon seems to generally portray a situation where truly destroying the God-Machine is impractical, but escaping it in some semi-permanent fashion is an achievable goal that decent number of demons have, in fact, achieved.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:21
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Loomer posted:The issue isn't oh no an apocalypse', it's that the way to get there was handled very poorly and a lot of decisions make no sense even within that context. Nor is it 'dishonest' to look at the tribal weakness of 'kicked out of egypt' (the classic weakness) or even the updated weakness of 'compulsion to wander' (which mechanically does not prohibit sept ownership or territorial claims, while we're at it) and still find the idea of them handing over the caern that facilitates their wandering more than literally any other thing on the face of the earth a dumb and terrible idea. The idea of a right shoe is only dumb and terrible when you are purposefully omitting the existance of a left shoe. Specifically, because the BNS game Werewolf: the Apocolypse is going through an actual apocolypse, there are only 13 Great Caerns and every other non-wandering tribe has exactly one caern to defend. The Wheel of Ptah's whole gimmick of being the one home base of tribe of mystically cursed wanderers- already a frayed and loose strain against the concept- is copied by a dozen others. There is a stronger narrative reflection of both rules and setting being told by BNS, even if you don't personally like it.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:30
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Terrorforge posted:Demon seems to generally portray a situation where truly destroying the God-Machine is impractical, but escaping it in some semi-permanent fashion is an achievable goal that decent number of demons have, in fact, achieved. Fixing or destroying the Machine are both very long-term but very viable goals in Demon.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:37
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Xelkelvos posted:The God-Machine is not God though. It's an entity that might be like God and is god-like in its capabilities, but it's manifest in this material realm and plane of existence though it might have ways to reach out into other ones. It's not Magic, like Mage or other splats, but it can do things with reality like Mages can. How? Why does that weird machine to turn cats into wifi hotspots the God Machine made work? Because that specific combination of parts and actions would turn cats into wifi hotspots no matter who was doing it.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:58
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Rand Brittain posted:When I asked Neall, who dev'd Beckett, about this, he basically said 'never again, the first one nearly killed me.' That's fine, Loomer can do it.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:58
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Dawgstar posted:So, I got BJD at the big sale and... yeah, it's the catnip I was afraid of. I really like the section on the southeast USA and how it's recovering from the Sabbat's Crusade at the turn of the millennium. While I'm not sure about the 'every clan/bloodline/whatever that likes voudoun are having a giant zombie party in New Orleans and the Camarilla is passing it off as those fun runs in zombie makeup' I do really dig the idea of the Southron Lords. (In essence, they were very old vampires who came over to take advantage of chattel slavery because they were old enough to remember it being a thing from earlier in their existence and went to sleep to avoid the Civil War. So there's like a dozen super old vampires sleeping it off with the potential for the fracas to wake them up.) They also might not actually exist because it's a Malkavian who says they do. I really need to poke through BJD more. I'm from Birmingham too and the Southern Lords stuff sounds dope as hell. Trying to plan an upcoming game set in Atlanta and I'm sure theres plenty in the book for inspiration.
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Sep 25, 2018 21:16
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Pope Guilty posted:That's fine, Loomer can do it. THE PROJECT MUST BE COMPLETED
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Sep 25, 2018 21:21
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Yeah, I thought all that bizarro weird Infrastructure poo poo was explicitly "this is actual, factual, physically extant stuff that is not powered by magic points," it was just using science like the weird aliens in that Stephen King book he wrote on coke. The one with the buried flying saucer that turned everyone into super gadgeteer mutants. Mulva posted:Well also in the sense that if one of those giant world ending events the God-Machine deals with comes along at that point everyone dies, although I suppose they still wouldn't notice the difference. On account of being dead. 1. you can probably rig up a replacement for. 2. at most means you have to wind it down in an orderly fashion if at all possible. 3., well, that's basically a table conversation isn't it?
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Sep 25, 2018 21:31
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Imo the idea that the God-Machine is wholly physical is thematically important, but for most practical purposes it may as well be magic.
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Sep 25, 2018 21:37
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It's "the God-Machine shoots down asteroids" with an extremely hefty dose of suspicion and paranoia, because the God-Machine lies constantly in order to manipulate humans, and a few places in the Demon book strongly suggest it lies to demons and even to loyal angels as well.
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Sep 25, 2018 21:38
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Like here's the book on the subject of Deva Corporation and the Apocalypse Clock:quote:Some divisions cooperate with the God-Machine in exchange Now sure, it's within the realm of occult physics that maybe specific people have to die at the hands of their loved ones in order to prevent the apocalypse. It's also plausible (and a great deal less cynical about the underlying nature of reality, itself) that the God-Machine just wants certain people killed in this particular, horrifying way for its own amoral purposes and the Apocalypse Clock is a powerful motivator. e: The literal "the God-Machine stops asteroids" quote is really long so I'm not going to put it here in full, but it's spoken in-character by a Demon who is almost certainly an Integrator trying to sell someone on his ideology: quote:I’m not saying we have to like everything it does, but the God-Machine is a shepherd (pgs. 70-71, "Planet Killer" if you want to read the rest) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 21:43
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There are explicit, non-lie world-ender timelines stored under Seattle in a giant vault, locked off from the world to prevent them from actually happening. The question, of course, is whether any of them would've needed to be prevented if there wasn't a giant idiot savant computer god messing with physics on a fundamental level for no clear purpose. The answer to that is i. The other question, the one asked by some Integrators: "can we reprogram it so that it just stops world-ending events but doesn't cause rampant suffering and break things? I feel like we could do that."
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Sep 25, 2018 21:45
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So what you're saying is that if we square the answer we get the Absolute Answer?
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Sep 25, 2018 22:10
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Luna stops asteroids too, though, and fell interplanetary outsiders.
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Sep 25, 2018 22:37
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Kurieg posted:So what you're saying is that if we square the answer we get the Absolute Answer? I'm saying if you square the answer you get -1.
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Sep 25, 2018 22:53
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nofather posted:Luna stops asteroids too, though, and fell interplanetary outsiders. 
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Sep 25, 2018 23:42
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Pope Guilty posted:Oh, duh, thanks. Cursive A is Aisling Sturbridge. EDIT: NINJA'd MoonKnight fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Sep 26, 2018 |
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Sep 26, 2018 00:17
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Halloween Jack posted:But seriously, folks, which are the books that explain how Gehenna/Apocalypse didn't happen and the classic WoD just keeps on truckin'? There aren't, but the Gehenna books were always optional scenarios, that's where there are multiple of them. The current metaplot rolls back to the end of Revised and then moves forward from there.
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Sep 26, 2018 00:20
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The v20 and v5 book seem to continue with the, 'Rumors of Gehenna coming fill the air with tension,' stuff. Though V5 mentions that there's like, vampires fighting a Gehenna War in the Middle East.
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Sep 26, 2018 01:26
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Magic (as in, Mage magic) works by rewriting the code of reality. God-Machine infrastructure, and angel/demon powers work by making use of engine exploits and glitches. It's why demon powers are literally named Exploits. To quote myself from earlier in the thread: Mage/Demon on teleportation and similar: Mage powers work by temporarily adminning themselves to write and run "sudo weavingspace.sh" Demon powers work by knowing how to jump diagonally just right into a corner to glitch themselves out of bounds. They have perfect timing so what would be multiple frame-perfect glitches in a row for a human is 100% reproducible for them. Angels don't have shell access but they can access debug variables to toggle noclip and warp. -- Basically if you've ever watched a video game TAS or Speedrun in the "execute arbitrary code" category, that's what the God-Machine does. They're not modifying the game code from outside of it (like a Mage does, temporarily) - they're doing all kinds of strange, arbitrary (to an outside observer) setup with, e.g. accessing the Pokemon PC, or hitting blocks and jumping on koopas in just the right way, and then bam suddenly they're teleported to the end of the game. That's Infrastructure setup.
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