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Shirec
Jul 29, 2009

How to cock it up, Fig. I

Oh jeeze, not to bring back an older discussion, but I have a strong distaste for ORMs after my last job and Sequelize (the Node.js version). So much wasted time of trying to get the "magic" to work correctly when I could do the vanilla SQL easy as pie (but was forbidden to)

Ape Fist posted:

You are a hiring manager whose also a dev. You can hire one of these people:

Person 1: Has a strong grasp of theory, understands software design concepts quickly, but spends an above average amount of time on stack because they tend to forget syntax things. As a result their code is sometimes untidy, an not ideally optimized.

Person 2: Is extremely good at syntactical recollection, writes clean and efficient code which compiles nicely most times through repetition, but absolutely can't grasp design structures or really any of the theory outside the 'local scope' of what he's working on.

:allears: I love getting all these insights from more experienced devs on what they value in hires/new folks. Partially edifying and partially eases my impostor syndrome with a good dose of what's important to keep in mind as I grow.

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Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...
The only important thing to remember is that PHP is bad and so is anyone who doesn't use your IDE of choice. Everything else is details

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

hailthefish posted:

Regular blue-collar factory laborers fought and loving died for the 40 hour week and the 8 hour day.

And now it's p much dead lol :911:
Every day the productivity of workers has decreased since the 1930s though since the 40 hour work week was instituted by federal law. Economists were predicting that we should be at 80 hour work weeks by now to make up for the continued loss in technology, and only by the grace of our bosses has this calamity not transpired yet.

BurntCornMuffin
Jan 9, 2009


Ape Fist posted:

You are a hiring manager whose also a dev. You can hire one of these people:

Person 1: Has a strong grasp of theory, understands software design concepts quickly, but spends an above average amount of time on stack because they tend to forget syntax things. As a result their code is sometimes untidy, an not ideally optimized.

Person 2: Is extremely good at syntactical recollection, writes clean and efficient code which compiles nicely most times through repetition, but absolutely can't grasp design structures or really any of the theory outside the 'local scope' of what he's working on.

How well do both:
  1. Communicate?
  2. Value build/test automation?
  3. Use Git?

Honestly, with the time I spend instructing people on how to make a loving commit, not knowing Git is something I'm keen to consider "deal breaker" territory.

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010


comedyblissoption posted:

Every day the productivity of workers has decreased since the 1930s though since the 40 hour work week was instituted by federal law. Economists were predicting that we should be at 80 hour work weeks by now to make up for the continued loss in technology, and only by the grace of our bosses has this calamity not transpired yet.

Do you have anything to back that up? Because that flies in the face of everything I know and any data some googling can find.

BaronVonVaderham
Jul 31, 2011

All hail the queen!

hailthefish posted:

Regular blue-collar factory laborers fought and loving died for the 40 hour week and the 8 hour day.

And now it's p much dead lol :911:

I went from being a teacher to being a programmer. What's a 40-hour work week?

Seriously though, this is something I argue with conservative relatives constantly. Our country has been trying its hardest to undo a century of labor progress and do the exact opposite of every other developed nation on the planet. See also: Lack of mandatory vacation time, no requirements of family leave for a new baby (both for mother and father), how our insurance is tied to our jobs...... Don't even get me started on "at will" employment.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Taffer posted:

Do you have anything to back that up? Because that flies in the face of everything I know and any data some googling can find.



:thejoke: presumably

Lumpy
Apr 26, 2002

La! La! La! Laaaa!



College Slice

Munkeymon posted:

:thejoke: presumably

I'm going very much with :thejoke:

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&



Ape Fist posted:

You are a hiring manager whose also a dev. You can hire one of these people:

Person 1: Has a strong grasp of theory, understands software design concepts quickly, but spends an above average amount of time on stack because they tend to forget syntax things. As a result their code is sometimes untidy, an not ideally optimized.

Person 2: Is extremely good at syntactical recollection, writes clean and efficient code which compiles nicely most times through repetition, but absolutely can't grasp design structures or really any of the theory outside the 'local scope' of what he's working on.
I'm person 1, but it feels like most interviewers want person 2.

BabyFur Denny
Mar 18, 2003
Everyone thinks they’re person 1

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.


https://twitter.com/iamdevloper/status/1044905355933876225

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.
The person 1/person 2 dichotomy is like reading the Facebook article people share like "studies show lazy people are actually more productive!!" Like, it's a completely absurd way to distill down the characteristics of any two people in an organization, much less generalize it out to ontologies of developers. Maybe Person 2 "absolutely can't grasp design structures" because they're undocumented, they have no support, the design they're supposed to understand is dog poo poo in the first place, and the theory was put together by someone who would rather wax philosophical and write 10-page development manifestos than getting anything done that's of actual value to their team. Or they could be total turd developers who can't understand a system larger than a single-file Python script. Maybe Person 1 forgets syntax and spends all their time on theory because they would much rather spend every work hour chasing the silver bullet that's supposed to make them a good developer than sit down and write some loving code. They can't remember syntax because they spend so much time reading and so little time writing that they develop no muscle memory. You don't know. Either of these people could be absolute poison to your work environment. Use better heuristics, then guess at absolute random who the right person is for your team, because these characteristics sure as poo poo give you absolutely nothing to go on.

Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Sep 27, 2018

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...
This is a weird way to tell us that you're the worst attributes of persons 1 and 2.

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Volmarias posted:

This is a weird way to tell us that you're the worst attributes of persons 1 and 2.
I'm worse than any developer you can imagine pal

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&



Vulture Culture posted:

I'm worse than any developer you can imagine pal
How long have you been interning, exactly?

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

SardonicTyrant posted:

How long have you been interning, exactly?
I'm the owner's very large son

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Vulture Culture posted:

I'm the owner's very large son

You win

Grimoire
Jul 9, 2003

Vulture Culture posted:

I'm the owner's very large son

lies. Everyone knows the owner's failson goes into some sales-but-doesn't-actually-sell sinecure.

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS
What's the thought on when to sell options, rsus, and espp stocks? So far I've been doing an annual cycle so as to pay long term cap gains but I've got enough in my account that I'm starting to get concerned that I've got too much invested in my company.

We're currently in our blackout period so I can't do much now but I'm curious how other folks are handling this kind of comp.

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Blinkz0rz posted:

What's the thought on when to sell options, rsus, and espp stocks? So far I've been doing an annual cycle so as to pay long term cap gains but I've got enough in my account that I'm starting to get concerned that I've got too much invested in my company.

We're currently in our blackout period so I can't do much now but I'm curious how other folks are handling this kind of comp.

Diversify, this includes company stock. What happens if it turns out you were working for Enron? You've lost your salary AND your savings. Treat company stock the same as you would any other stock.

WRT holding, you should only worry about LTCG vs STCG for value that's an increased since the stocks vested. You're already paying tax on them when they vest. Sell whenever you want (and you're not in a blackout period)

Volmarias fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Oct 1, 2018

tortilla_chip
Jun 13, 2007

k-partite
I sell RSUs at vest, hold ESPP for 1 year (assuming gains).

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

tortilla_chip posted:

I sell RSUs at vest, hold ESPP for 1 year (assuming gains).

Any particular reason to treat them differently? Is it based on the difference between discounted purchase vs award or something different?

tortilla_chip
Jun 13, 2007

k-partite
https://www.morganstanley.com/spc/k...plications.html

Qualifying vs. disqualifying disposition. It is situationally dependent of course, but if you're seeing an appreciable amount of gains after receiving the ESPP long term cap gains should beat out ordinary income tax everytime.

Ape Fist
Feb 23, 2007

Nowadays, you can do anything that you want; anal, oral, fisting, but you need to be wearing gloves, condoms, protection.
Week 4 of my new role as Front End Lead and let me tell you about my sadness.

We have 3 front end developers. Me, one other senior, and a Jr. We need another 3, at minimum. The other senior's nose is bent out of shape because I've come on board and taken over, and has basically mentally checked out. He's buried himself in a project and won't move. There are over 150 outstanding front end issues of varying complexity and severity spread across 5 projects. I've been here a month and I still don't fully understand how our horrible loving tech stack works. (ASP.NET MVC + EPISERVER) We have 2 projects which are about to start and one "starter template" which is being built which all projects thereafter will use. Additionally we've taken on stewardship of a legacy webforms project and today I had one of the architects from the project on a call telling me we needed to change a section of the front end to javascript because, and I quote, "They don't like the way the screen reloads when you click a link. Modern websites don't do that anymore so just do some javascript stuff in jQuery to sort it out." He wants an entire corner of their site rebuilt with SPA-like functionality but doesn't want us to use Angular or React because" they're too big and too much work. This shouldn't really take more than 5 days."

Jesus take the loving wheel.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

I have my RSUs set up to autosale at vesting. Too much of my financial stability is already dependent on my company for me to keep a ton of stock in it too.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Jose Valasquez posted:

I have my RSUs set up to autosale at vesting. Too much of my financial stability is already dependent on my company for me to keep a ton of stock in it too.

I understand the mechanics of the argument, but looking back at my personal history I would've been better holding most of the time. Like this doesn't run the gamut of companies, but when's the last out-of-the-blue collapse that rewards this diversification? Like... Enron? Worldcom/MCI?

ChickenWing
Jul 22, 2010

:v:

JawnV6 posted:

I understand the mechanics of the argument, but looking back at my personal history I would've been better holding most of the time. Like this doesn't run the gamut of companies, but when's the last out-of-the-blue collapse that rewards this diversification? Like... Enron? Worldcom/MCI?

Conversely, when was the last time that anyone was able to consistently and reliably able to predict anything about the stock market?

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

ChickenWing posted:

Conversely, when was the last time that anyone was able to consistently and reliably able to predict anything about the stock market?

Okay, so you’ve got an argument against all stocks, not specifically diversifying from an employer.

Basically the odds seem ridiculously tilted towards your individual employment ending apart from a catastrophic moment for the stock. If it’s a big enough lay-off the stock is likely to bounce some. I’m sure there is someone that has actually seen this scenario play out, but I can’t think of any well known examples from this decade.

Bruegels Fuckbooks
Sep 14, 2004

Now, listen - I know the two of you are very different from each other in a lot of ways, but you have to understand that as far as Grandpa's concerned, you're both pieces of shit! Yeah. I can prove it mathematically.

Ape Fist posted:

Week 4 of my new role as Front End Lead and let me tell you about my sadness.

We have 3 front end developers. Me, one other senior, and a Jr. We need another 3, at minimum. The other senior's nose is bent out of shape because I've come on board and taken over, and has basically mentally checked out. He's buried himself in a project and won't move. There are over 150 outstanding front end issues of varying complexity and severity spread across 5 projects. I've been here a month and I still don't fully understand how our horrible loving tech stack works. (ASP.NET MVC + EPISERVER) We have 2 projects which are about to start and one "starter template" which is being built which all projects thereafter will use. Additionally we've taken on stewardship of a legacy webforms project and today I had one of the architects from the project on a call telling me we needed to change a section of the front end to javascript because, and I quote, "They don't like the way the screen reloads when you click a link. Modern websites don't do that anymore so just do some javascript stuff in jQuery to sort it out." He wants an entire corner of their site rebuilt with SPA-like functionality but doesn't want us to use Angular or React because" they're too big and too much work. This shouldn't really take more than 5 days."

Jesus take the loving wheel.

looks like a job for captain iframe, defender of the lovely webapp!

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:

looks like a job for captain iframe, defender of the lovely webapp!

Hook the onclick on every link on the site to fetch the URL and replace the body with whatever comes back. Oh, make sure to update the history manually, too.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Munkeymon posted:

Hook the onclick on every link on the site to fetch the URL and replace the body with whatever comes back. Oh, make sure to update the history manually, too.

Oh, so Turbolinks

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Ape Fist posted:

Week 4 of my new role as Front End Lead and let me tell you about my sadness.

We have 3 front end developers. Me, one other senior, and a Jr. We need another 3, at minimum. The other senior's nose is bent out of shape because I've come on board and taken over, and has basically mentally checked out. He's buried himself in a project and won't move. There are over 150 outstanding front end issues of varying complexity and severity spread across 5 projects. I've been here a month and I still don't fully understand how our horrible loving tech stack works. (ASP.NET MVC + EPISERVER) We have 2 projects which are about to start and one "starter template" which is being built which all projects thereafter will use. Additionally we've taken on stewardship of a legacy webforms project and today I had one of the architects from the project on a call telling me we needed to change a section of the front end to javascript because, and I quote, "They don't like the way the screen reloads when you click a link. Modern websites don't do that anymore so just do some javascript stuff in jQuery to sort it out." He wants an entire corner of their site rebuilt with SPA-like functionality but doesn't want us to use Angular or React because" they're too big and too much work. This shouldn't really take more than 5 days."

Jesus take the loving wheel.
They're probably right not to want React if you'll still be needing to support IE6

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice

JawnV6 posted:

Okay, so you’ve got an argument against all stocks, not specifically diversifying from an employer.

Basically the odds seem ridiculously tilted towards your individual employment ending apart from a catastrophic moment for the stock. If it’s a big enough lay-off the stock is likely to bounce some. I’m sure there is someone that has actually seen this scenario play out, but I can’t think of any well known examples from this decade.

What about this: a single-name pick isn't inherently wiser just because it's with the company that employs you, right? If you really want to determine whether holding has historically been a good idea, you should examine the opportunity cost of it in each case, not just whether the stock itself went up or down.

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.




:yeah:

If they're credulous/clueless enough to think you can just stir in some jQuery and make your stuff a SPA, then that'll probably trick them.

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

raminasi posted:

What about this: a single-name pick isn't inherently wiser just because it's with the company that employs you, right? If you really want to determine whether holding has historically been a good idea, you should examine the opportunity cost of it in each case, not just whether the stock itself went up or down.

Again, looking for an example of where this disaster-avoidance strategy paid off or someone not using it was egregiously hurt, not some wishy washy handwaving around other theoretical strategies. Like is that really so hard to understand? This diversification 'strategy' is pitched all over and given the relative ease of ESPP and RSU's, not to mention the fact that I can keep up with one (1) employers' quarterly results without too much headache, I don't really think justifying or tearing down Literally Every Potential Strategy is a fruitful discussion.

Blinkz0rz is one of the few posters who could legitimately be in a position where these concerns matter or could have seen the deleterious effects of sticking to one's employer's stock. I think everyone else claiming to use it is just fooling themselves at their own relative importance.

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

JawnV6 posted:

Again, looking for an example of where this disaster-avoidance strategy paid off or someone not using it was egregiously hurt, not some wishy washy handwaving around other theoretical strategies. Like is that really so hard to understand? This diversification 'strategy' is pitched all over and given the relative ease of ESPP and RSU's, not to mention the fact that I can keep up with one (1) employers' quarterly results without too much headache, I don't really think justifying or tearing down Literally Every Potential Strategy is a fruitful discussion.

Blinkz0rz is one of the few posters who could legitimately be in a position where these concerns matter or could have seen the deleterious effects of sticking to one's employer's stock. I think everyone else claiming to use it is just fooling themselves at their own relative importance.

No one is fooling themselves about self importance. Forget catastrophic failures like Enron, assume that some aspect of the business or economy turns and the stock starts losing value, month over month, year over year. You still want to diversify, regardless of where your other income is coming from.

If you want to pick a majority stock to invest in, so be it, but consider it the same as a normal investment, then let us know when to check in on you in this thread.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxSdWhkMB_A

JawnV6
Jul 4, 2004

So hot ...

Volmarias posted:

No one is fooling themselves about self importance. Forget catastrophic failures like Enron, assume that some aspect of the business or economy turns and the stock starts losing value, month over month, year over year. You still want to diversify, regardless of where your other income is coming from.

If you want to pick a majority stock to invest in, so be it, but consider it the same as a normal investment, then let us know when to check in on you in this thread.

:sigh: Single example of either this strategy paying off or avoidance causing egregious harm would be great, but nobody's got those for some curious reason.

I guess folks just wanna talk down to others without realizing how furiously their own hands are waving? Odd to find that behavior among programmers, you'd think they'd be less emotional.

Jose Valasquez
Apr 8, 2005

JawnV6 posted:

I understand the mechanics of the argument, but looking back at my personal history I would've been better holding most of the time. Like this doesn't run the gamut of companies, but when's the last out-of-the-blue collapse that rewards this diversification? Like... Enron? Worldcom/MCI?

The argument against holding a single stock that happens to be your employer is the same argument against holding a single stock that isn't your employer. Diversification is a basic tenet of smart investing.

For every GOOG, APPL, AMZN, NFLX and FB there are a dozen examples of uninspiring stocks and there is no guarantee that one of FAANG isn't going to be the next uninspiring stock.

As to specific examples...
Microsoft stock was stagnant for more than a decade after booming in the late 90s and then crashing in the early 2000s. They are doing significantly better the last couple years, but even then between 2000 and the beginning of 2018 MSFT only went up 62%. Cut off 2017 and you are down to 18%.
Same with Yahoo, although more extreme. It is down 20% since 2000.
In the same timeframe Vanguard Stock Market Index Fund (VTSAX) went up 140%

As a more recent extreme example Moviepass stock became worthless really fast earlier this year.

If you were a Dropbox employee this year and held on to your stock since the IPO you've lost about 6% of your money instead of gaining 12% in VTSAX.

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Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

JawnV6 posted:

:sigh: Single example of either this strategy paying off or avoidance causing egregious harm would be great, but nobody's got those for some curious reason.

I guess folks just wanna talk down to others without realizing how furiously their own hands are waving? Odd to find that behavior among programmers, you'd think they'd be less emotional.

I mean we have the examples of Enron and people losing their entire life savings, but yeah just keep moving those goal posts. Sorry that I haven't personally come to ruinous loss for your edification?

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