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One of the things that higher belts did when I rolled with them as a new white belt was point out when they could go for certain leg/heel locks. They wouldn't snap them on but if I placed my foot close to their armpit they would make me aware of it and try to break those habits. Even now as a blue belt I know a heel hook or two but vary rarely ever go for them or any leg attack. The rest of my game is still not built up enough that I feel I should go for those yet. Not just to prevent injuring someone but I'll lose position or control very easily.
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Sep 26, 2018 20:31
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Yuns posted:Some of the senior guys were having a talk after no gi class this morning. We're seeing an annoying trend of newer less experienced guys spamming leg locks - particularly heel hooks. We think that they think that is the DDS game. It is not. That's a complete misunderstanding. I've rolled with some of the best competitive leg lockers since they were blue belts. They do NOT spam leg locks. For example, Eddie is so good at leg locks in part because his ground game is so complete. He has incredible grips and control and an incredibly difficult guard to pass. Because of this he can create leg exposure like no one else I know. His ability to create leg exposure with his control and ability to off balance puts him into position to enter strong advantageous leg entanglements and his development of the control, hierarchy of position and finishing mechanics allow to take advantage of it. It is not just going inverted into a reverse X guard then elevating into an inverted heel hook. Without a complete game, you will not be effective at high level. Garry and Gordon also have complete games. They are not leg lock spammers. So don't treat leg locks as a short cut, you will get smashed. Funny you should mention this.I was just watching something last night and this came up. At the end of the EBI 17 qualifiers (the video is up on youtube), Eddie Bravo stresses the importance of just not going to leglocks out of the gate, but to make that effort of passing guard and keeping the tightness there. My school always stresses and we are hardly doing any leglocks even during nogi. Its pretty amazing how much your passing game gets better when you keep that tightness and posture down when attempting to pass.
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Sep 26, 2018 20:55
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JaySB posted:Send him my regards I did not but his seminar was very interesting
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Sep 26, 2018 21:30
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Busy at work so I'll answer the questions later tonight. But I wanted to note that I'll let lower level belts enter leg locks on me and will let them lock on and I can see they expect me to tap. I'll even tell them they can crank as much as they like and then they get frustrated when I don't react to the leg lock and then escape into my own. I want them to know heel hooks are not a magic "game over" thing. Odddzy I can't remember but did I let you crank a heel hook on me when I was discussing finishing mechanics with you?
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Sep 26, 2018 21:56
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Yuns posted:Busy at work so I'll answer the questions later tonight. But I wanted to note that I'll let lower level belts enter leg locks on me and will let them lock on and I can see they expect me to tap. I'll even tell them they can crank as much as they like and then they get frustrated when I don't react to the leg lock and then escape into my own. I want them to know heel hooks are not a magic "game over" thing. Odddzy I can't remember but did I let you crank a heel hook on me when I was discussing finishing mechanics with you? Yeah, While we were rolling last year you let me get in leg entanglements and we discussed finishing mechanics a bit.
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Sep 26, 2018 22:04
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As some who loves smash and passing, bad leg lockers are my favorite. I usually only go for leg locks to get people to turn so I can try for their back .
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Sep 26, 2018 22:54
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I approach leg locks with a lot of caution. Some leg entanglements look really cool (including some sambo throws) but if poo poo goes wrong, it looks like you could really gently caress up your OWN leg.
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Sep 26, 2018 23:21
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I try not to fetishize leglocks and I’ve been trying really hard to focus on fundamentals lately, but I just moved from a school where the white belts are all into heelhooks to a school where the purple belts are terrified of them, and I am currently feasting like a fox who has dug his way into a henhouse
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Sep 26, 2018 23:50
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I'm seen as a leglock guy(TM) at the gym although I'm not all that great at them but today's tally of cool guy submissions was 1 Admiral Neckbar, 1 Smother (hand on mouth like Vagner), and a handful of guillotines. Now cue me sucking for the next month because of karma. (Also, I'm heavy and tallish and I was against small guys so it's not worth all that much, it's just fun trying unorthodox submissions)
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Sep 27, 2018 00:31
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Defenestrategy posted:Don't be so sure. IBJJF's want to pretty much forbid any leg submission beyond a straight ankle lock in the gi will keep a significant part of the population ignorant of the leg game in general with really no penalty. It's not absurd for someone to win pans or worlds by knowing how to escape a straight ankle lock or knee bar and never knowing a leg submission. That is one of the limiting factors, and clubs that only compete in IBJJF rulesets will lag behind. Even still, the knowledge trickles out, and there's enough interest in leg submissions in general that virtually every club is getting SOME exposure. Hell, my club has never taught a single leglock, our competitors compete almost entirely under IBJJF rulesets, and yet there are several of us who've been exploring and seeing success.
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Sep 27, 2018 01:28
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CommonShore posted:(I'm going to try to close the communication loop a bit here to make sure I'm understanding correctly in asking my followup question) quote:Because I'm a leg-fetish blue belt, but I consciously try not to do that, and I want to make sure that I'm not shooting myself in the foot (
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Sep 27, 2018 01:39
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) somehow in my training here:
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Odddzy posted:I'm seen as a leglock guy(TM) at the gym although I'm not all that great at them but today's tally of cool guy submissions was 1 Admiral Neckbar, 1 Smother (hand on mouth like Vagner), and a handful of guillotines. Now cue me sucking for the next month because of karma. (Also, I'm heavy and tallish and I was against small guys so it's not worth all that much, it's just fun trying unorthodox submissions) hahaha, I'd never heard of this, what an amazing name
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Sep 27, 2018 01:40
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I try not to fetishize leglocks and I’ve been trying really hard to focus on fundamentals lately, but I just moved from a school where the white belts are all into heelhooks to a school where the purple belts are terrified of them, and I am currently feasting like a fox who has dug his way into a henhouse lol yeeeep
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Sep 27, 2018 01:40
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Just to be clear, I am not saying don't learn leg locks or don't do leg locks. I am saying that they are part of a complete game and ffs white belts and blue belts should learn to pass and retain guard first.
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Sep 27, 2018 01:51
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But I'm old and cranky, and I like leglocks and I know I'll never be a mundials champ.  Just let me have this Yuns. Don't take away my goofy corner of BJJ where people get caught in this weird leg triangle thing and then get heelhooked. (Excellent points all around, and I really wonder if my heel hooks are really that great because of the absolute caution people have about them.)
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Sep 27, 2018 02:06
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Personally I don't understand the caution about leg locks beyond the Heel Hook. People get really bent out of shape for even kneebars, toe holds, and slicers even though they're arguable as dangerous as any given Armbar, Kimura, and ... I'd say bicep slicers, but for some reason people are real scared of those too.
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Sep 27, 2018 02:12
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Since my neck is hosed, I only play legs.
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Sep 27, 2018 02:22
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Yuns posted:Some of the senior guys were having a talk after no gi class this morning. We're seeing an annoying trend of newer less experienced guys spamming leg locks - particularly heel hooks. We think that they think that is the DDS game. It is not. That's a complete misunderstanding. I've rolled with some of the best competitive leg lockers since they were blue belts. They do NOT spam leg locks. For example, Eddie is so good at leg locks in part because his ground game is so complete. He has incredible grips and control and an incredibly difficult guard to pass. Because of this he can create leg exposure like no one else I know. His ability to create leg exposure with his control and ability to off balance puts him into position to enter strong advantageous leg entanglements and his development of the control, hierarchy of position and finishing mechanics allow to take advantage of it. It is not just going inverted into a reverse X guard then elevating into an inverted heel hook. Without a complete game, you will not be effective at high level. Garry and Gordon also have complete games. They are not leg lock spammers. So don't treat leg locks as a short cut, you will get smashed. Heel hooks are almost always off limits in sparring at all levels at my sambo club. The attitude is basically that if you can't also finish someone with an ankle lock or toe hold from a position, then you've got work to do. Leg control positions are also treated as valid positions unto themselves -- not as something separate from guard, half guard etc, where you have your normal game and then some separate "leglock game". I think part of the problem that you're referring to is because the people these new students are "spamming leg locks" against do not themselves know the leg control game, since it isn't comprehensively integrated into instruction at the beginner level. It's impossible to spam leglocks against someone who actually knows leglocks because they're just going to defend and advance through the position like it's nothing. It's not just a problem of attitude -- leg locks really are a shortcut when your opponents suck at defending them. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 02:28
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Admiral Neckbar is a total Joe Doerksen / Glen Flamand type of big guy crushing "just gonna remove this here limb..." bjj type of move. Joe has this loving thing that he does to big dudes where he puts a shin on their face and then pulls up the leg like that and it makes them tap so fast that their hands are suddenly hummingbirds or something. And thanks for the feedback, Yuns. I find it very helpful to get thoughts from a high-level guy who doesn't see me roll. It's like it's evaluation for my approach to jits or something, rather than my execution.
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Sep 27, 2018 03:42
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i'd like to thank yuns for posting in general. even if it's just idle musings i find it really thought provoking and as a guy who doesn't even have a black belt in his town i really appreciate it. thanks yuns. also, i'll be taking a trip to the states next year for shits and giggs and i'll be doing the east coast i think and i'd love to visit a real academy at least once.
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Sep 27, 2018 03:49
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Marching Powder posted:i'd like to thank yuns for posting in general. even if it's just idle musings i find it really thought provoking and as a guy who doesn't even have a black belt in his town i really appreciate it. thanks yuns. also, i'll be taking a trip to the states next year for shits and giggs and i'll be doing the east coast i think and i'd love to visit a real academy at least once. Yuns fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 03:55
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Yuns posted:Thank you. I don't anyone to think I know everything. I'm just your average hobbyist black belt with a day job. I have the privilege of training with some incredible grapplers and compared to them I know nothing. If you ever come to the states, please come visit Renzo Gracie Academy as my guest. yeah man don't want to swing on your nuts too hard but you never come across as a know it all, you just speak from your considerable experience. also i'll definitely take you up on that offer and look forward to it.
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Sep 27, 2018 04:00
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CommonShore posted:Joe has this loving thing that he does to big dudes where he puts a shin on their face and then pulls up the leg like that and it makes them tap so fast that their hands are suddenly hummingbirds or something. Do you have a vid of that somewhere?
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Sep 27, 2018 04:03
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Odddzy posted:Do you have a vid of that somewhere? No I don't, but the next time I see him I'll see what I can arrange.
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Sep 27, 2018 04:04
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CommonShore posted:Admiral Neckbar is a total Joe Doerksen / Glen Flamand type of big guy crushing "just gonna remove this here limb..." bjj type of move. Joe has this loving thing that he does to big dudes where he puts a shin on their face and then pulls up the leg like that and it makes them tap so fast that their hands are suddenly hummingbirds or something. Like a shinlock, but on the face? I'm intrigued...
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Sep 27, 2018 04:06
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CommonShore posted:No I don't, but the next time I see him I'll see what I can arrange. Please do, It's fun to have a few freak subs in the bag from time to time.
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Sep 27, 2018 04:08
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My go to freak sub is the no-gi baseball bat choke. People think they can fight it off. Very few can.
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Sep 27, 2018 07:09
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Life goals: tap someone out with a Romero Special
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Sep 27, 2018 07:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCcjhDs4Lo0
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Sep 27, 2018 12:13
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lol EJsus Christ
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Sep 27, 2018 14:23
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Yuns posted:Thank you. I don't want anyone to think I know everything. I'm just your average hobbyist black belt with a day job. I have the privilege of training with some incredible grapplers and compared to them I know nothing. If you ever come to the states, please come visit Renzo Gracie Academy as my guest. Hey Yuns, does Renzo ever tell you guys stories of his younger days? Ive seen a couple of videos where he goes on and they are all pretty funny.
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Sep 27, 2018 18:46
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Mel Mudkiper posted:btw, what is the general reputation of Robson Moura around the community? I train at one of his branch schools, and everything I have found online has been pretty positive, but I figured there are some knowledgeable guys around here who might know more about him Robson himself is ludicrously legit. I watched him take a apart a competition purple with 100 pounds on him like a rabid weasel. Rolling him is like trying to fight your dad when you're 5. I think he still might have the highest gold medal total for anyone who doesn't have an absolute medal though Cobrinha or Rafa might have him there. He was a huge inspiration for the current and slightly older crop of lightweight competitors. Spoiler, I'm also at a Robson Moura school in NC. Not sure what exactly happened with him and the larger Nova Uniao federation though, as far as I know he left because Pederneiras started wanting more money from affiliates.
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Sep 27, 2018 20:35
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Tacos Al Pastor posted:Hey Yuns, does Renzo ever tell you guys stories of his younger days? Ive seen a couple of videos where he goes on and they are all pretty funny.
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Sep 27, 2018 20:45
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awkward_turtle posted:Spoiler, I'm also at a Robson Moura school in NC. Nice, if you've ever seen any of his DVDs my instructor is usually on them.
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Sep 27, 2018 20:50
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Looks like Joe is gonna be at class tonight. I'll see if I can get a picture of his weird sub as per Admiral Neckbar. Too lazy to do a vid.
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Sep 27, 2018 22:31
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Crossposted from the UFC monthly thread: I'm collecting info on subs in the UFC, and categorizing them. Subs come in countless varieties, so I'm trying to have the smallest number of categories that is reasonable. I'm wondering about triangle armbars. Some finishes are listed as triangle armbar on sherdog or wikipedia. Some subs are listed as armbar, when there was a triangle also applied, and vice versa. Having watched many of these fights, I know there is a lot of overlap in these categories. I'd prefer to not have triangle armbar as a category because fewer is better, and there are other simultaneous subs that may need their own categories. But splitting them into one or the other is contentious and time consuming. Any suggestions? I'd love to just follow a convention if one exists.
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Sep 27, 2018 22:39
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Count Roland posted:Crossposted from the UFC monthly thread: I'd say you should split them into position, then kind of submission, and then a note on what was used. Top/Bottom: Side, Back, Guard, Mount, Ashi Garami: and then split them into either choke, joint lock, or slicer. Then Armbar/Kimura/Slicer/twister what ever. Defenestrategy fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 22:50
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that might get confusing if the subs were caught in transition, or caught from weird positions, but i have no better ideas
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Sep 27, 2018 22:55
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Defenestrategy posted:I'd say you should split them into position, then kind of submission, and then a note on what was used. Top/Bottom: Side, Back, Guard, Mount, Ashi Garami: and then split them into either choke, joint lock, or slicer. Then Armbar/Kimura/Slicer/twister what ever. No can do. Back in 2014 I did this: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/440869/Most-common-subs-in-UFC-history-graphically-displayed/ And now I'm doing it again. Listing subs by their position is beyond the scope of this study. I get my info from wiki or sherdog, and "interpret" the data-- meaning if I see an armbar and its listed as kimura, then I'll mark down armbar. The pie charts, and line graphs which will accompany this next version, get more crowded the more submissions appear on it, hence my desire to trim things down a bit. Triangle armbar is listed, but since the last study there have been things like triangle-kimuras and I feel like I'm going down a rabbit hole by listing so many variations. I don't distinguish between a mounted triangle, triangle from guard, reverse triangle etc etc, so it seems funny that triangle armbar gets its own category. I'm not looking for a hard and fast solution: if you guys have a personal preference, then let me know. Count Roland fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 23:01
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I’d be tempted to just call it a triangle? Because you don’t know which mechanism got the tap but even if the triangle didn’t choke him it was used as the primary method of control
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Sep 27, 2018 23:34
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