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Larry Parrish posted:The purpose of the vanguard is entryism. How else would you radicalize the proletariat. Entirely propaganda of the deed and trot newspapers? Vanguardism is elitist bullshit; prop of the deed doesn't work; zines > newspapers
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Sep 29, 2018 16:41
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Phi230 posted:Vanguardism is elitist bullshit; prop of the deed doesn't work; zines > newspapers "I need a PC tech to help fix my computer" "Wow, elitist much? Just throw some dirt on it."
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Sep 29, 2018 16:44
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ShriekingMarxist posted:"I need a PC tech to help fix my computer" This is assuming the revolutionary vanguard are to politics as trained, experienced PC techs are to IT. From what I've seen of PSL that is not the case
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Sep 29, 2018 16:46
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I dunno as lovely as PSL is they do a lot more mass organizing than my DSA chapter. But maybe my chapter just sucks and our few organizers aren't effective. I don't live close enough to tell.
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Sep 29, 2018 16:49
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Phi230 posted:Vanguardism is elitist bullshit; prop of the deed doesn't work; zines > newspapers how is vanguardism elitist? maybe it's just because I come from a different political tradition, but the idea of a political vanguard, as it was explained to me, is that there is always going to be some section of the working class that comes to radical conclusions sooner than the rest, and that they should work to spread those ideas in a principled, deliberate, and organized fashion. that seems like common sense to me, unless you want radicals to just sit on their hands and just wait for class consciousness to dawn spontaneously on the rest of the working class somehow. to say the least, that is a highly optimistic thing to anticipate
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Sep 29, 2018 16:49
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Mr. Lobe posted:how is vanguardism elitist? maybe it's just because I come from a different political tradition, but the idea of a political vanguard, as it was explained to me, is that there is always going to be some section of the working class that comes to radical conclusions sooner than the rest, and that they should work to spread those ideas in a principled, deliberate, and organized fashion. that seems like common sense to me, unless you want radicals to just sit on their hands and just wait for class consciousness to dawn spontaneously on the rest of the working class. to say the least, that is highly optimistic See that's how vanguardism is sold but not how it works in practice. In practice its a bunch of armchair revolutionaries who view themselves as superior, elite and "knows better" than working class people. In practice it creates a hierarchy of the so called vanguard and everyone else.
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Sep 29, 2018 16:52
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Phi230 posted:See that's how vanguardism is sold but not how it works in practice. In practice its a bunch of armchair revolutionaries who view themselves as superior, elite and "knows better" than working class people. In practice it creates a hierarchy of the so called vanguard and everyone else. suppose it's true that any vanguardist effort is going to end up in this kind of stratification. what do you propose instead?
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Sep 29, 2018 16:54
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we should just learn to cast fire spells and then we'll have communism
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Sep 29, 2018 16:55
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some ways of being a vanguard are elitist but some aren't. Too many people use the word 'vanguard' in too many different ways for it to be all that descriptive imo. You can certainly have a non-elitist, worker-organizing focused vanguard but that wouldn't really describe PSL, or at least certainly not the overwhelmingly dysfunctional chicago chapter. I definitely know some people who basically operate like your classic 'vanguard' idea but actually like organize people though so there are ways where it actually works out.
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Sep 29, 2018 16:57
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Mr. Lobe posted:suppose it's true that any vanguardist effort is going to end up in this kind of stratification. what do you propose instead? GOOGLE MURRAY BOOKCHIN
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Sep 29, 2018 16:58
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Karl Barks posted:GOOGLE MURRAY BOOKCHIN
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Sep 29, 2018 16:59
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anyway I reject on its face the idea that vanguardism, as I described it, inevitably leads to some kind of armchair leadership thing, because the most radical and influential political people I've ever known, the people I would describe as "vanguardists", have been on-the-ground unionists and organizers. the work they do is mostly unglamorous, and they take serious personal risks and have serious personal stakes in what they are doing. I also cannot imagine we can succeed without people like them. but then, I don't think I'm describing whatever this PSL or whatever model of vanguardism is.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:01
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My take on vanguardism, it was a historical entity that Lenin was describing, not prescribing. Because people work backwards through history, I think they think it's the latter. So they end up thinking the tactic itself is "create a vanguard" and not "have the material conditions where a vanguard party can florish". One man's opinion Edit ^^ you have it right lobe
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Sep 29, 2018 17:03
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If you think the concept of a vanguard party is elitist you're... well. I don't know what that is because it's not any kind of revolutionary socialist
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Sep 29, 2018 17:03
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Karl Barks posted:My take on vanguardism, it was a historical entity that Lenin was describing, not prescribing. Because people work backwards through history, I think they think it's the latter. So they end up thinking the tactic itself is "create a vanguard" and not "have the material conditions where a vanguard party can florish". One man's opinion Yer. Even materialist scholars are prone to categorical shorthand and ascribing deliberate significance to movements that arose organically from our friend MATERIAL CONDITIONS.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:06
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You can't tell me how to overthrow the government, dad.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:07
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I'm a vanguard and I'm elitist. And I vote.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:08
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Tpaine is that you
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Sep 29, 2018 17:13
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Karl Barks posted:Tpaine is that you I'm actually banned user Reginald Q. Fuckley
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Sep 29, 2018 17:14
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Welcome back Mr Fuckley
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Sep 29, 2018 17:18
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thank you karl.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:23
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Mr. Lobe posted:anyway I reject on its face the idea that vanguardism, as I described it, inevitably leads to some kind of armchair leadership thing, because the most radical and influential political people I've ever known, the people I would describe as "vanguardists", have been on-the-ground unionists and organizers. the work they do is mostly unglamorous, and they take serious personal risks and have serious personal stakes in what they are doing. I also cannot imagine we can succeed without people like them. but then, I don't think I'm describing whatever this PSL or whatever model of vanguardism is. If you're unionizing and organizing you're not Vanguard. Being true Vanguard means you don't do anything but post
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Sep 29, 2018 17:24
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Jewel Repetition posted:If you're unionizing and organizing you're not Vanguard. Being true Vanguard means you don't do anything but post Begone liberal
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Sep 29, 2018 17:27
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Mr. Lobe posted:how is vanguardism elitist? maybe it's just because I come from a different political tradition, but the idea of a political vanguard, as it was explained to me, is that there is always going to be some section of the working class that comes to radical conclusions sooner than the rest, and that they should work to spread those ideas in a principled, deliberate, and organized fashion. that seems like common sense to me, unless you want radicals to just sit on their hands and just wait for class consciousness to dawn spontaneously on the rest of the working class somehow. to say the least, that is a highly optimistic thing to anticipate You getting your theory from internet weirdos?
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Sep 29, 2018 17:36
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the "vanguard" is literally just the layer of the working class that has achieved class consciousness. the vanguard party is just those people organizing into a political party that can fight and advocate for the working class. its the means by which the working class transitions from being, like marx described, a class in itself into being a class for itself
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Sep 29, 2018 17:42
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Remember, in simplest terms a vanguard is the group of people that are advancing ahead of the main body, to keep it safe from attack and scout out the route that the main body will be taking. That's the role of the vanguard in politics as well.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:48
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ohh it's a guard made of vans, not people who guard vans.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:50
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apropos to nothing posted:i guess my confusion is in all the people itt and who i see elsewhere online and irl who go full bore stalin-did-nothing-wrong-social-dems-get-the-gulag-too but who then are also in the DSA which is a social democratic organization. if youre in it to shift consciousness or help radicalize others in it, ok I guess I dont really agree with entryism as a tactic but its something you can do, but its only effective if its ever effective when its done in a concentrated and coordinated way, not randos all acting as individuals without any planning or coordination. DSA is not a socdem org tho?
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Sep 29, 2018 17:51
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also I will never get the disdain for newspapers. newspapers help spread your ideas to workers who may not come into contact with them or socialism any other way. they also serve as a means that people within the party learn how to write effectively and persuasively, train members how to interact with people on the street or in crowds with their ideas, and help facilitate the establishment of large networks of distribution for propaganda. if youre actually serious about organizing then distributing literature, in whatever form it takes, is like the single most important thing you can do
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Sep 29, 2018 17:55
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apropos to nothing posted:also I will never get the disdain for newspapers. newspapers help spread your ideas to workers who may not come into contact with them or socialism any other way. they also serve as a means that people within the party learn how to write effectively and persuasively, train members how to interact with people on the street or in crowds with their ideas, and help facilitate the establishment of large networks of distribution for propaganda. if youre actually serious about organizing then distributing literature, in whatever form it takes, is like the single most important thing you can do I have literally never read a newspaper in 5 years, since I moved out of home and bought a cell phone. So uh, you just an old person, or a trot? Because my grandmother is the only person I see with a newspaper anymore
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Sep 29, 2018 17:57
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it's because trots seem to think that newspapers are the only step to revolution, so they're constantly trying to hawk newspapers at any event ever. And I understand, they are an expense, but charging people to read your propaganda is kind of a dumb idea.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:58
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i think the issue with newspapers is that since around 1982 no one has ever read one. make a youtube channel or something if you care about people actually listening to you. it's much better than writing college student essays about empire on lovely pulp paper.
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Sep 29, 2018 18:00
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leave it to goons to discover the secret to starting The Revolution involves never leaving the house
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Sep 29, 2018 18:02
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literally once you sell enough newspapers then the revolution kicks off. the editor has a red button at the party headquarters they push once the subscription number reaches 1 million
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Sep 29, 2018 18:03
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apropos to nothing posted:leave it to goons to discover the secret to starting The Revolution involves never leaving the house actually your engagement rate on youtube is much higher if you do shots on location.
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Sep 29, 2018 18:03
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i'd love a red newspaper that was actually good at the news part
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Sep 29, 2018 18:05
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I agree about writing or whatever but a loving newspaper is not how to do that lol. Unless you mean an online one i guess? The psl news site for example is pretty good although they have a bad habit of getting real mad about something and sounding like they wrote the whole article while crying in frustration
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Sep 29, 2018 18:06
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i wish communists could do anything right actually
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Sep 29, 2018 18:08
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Considering that everyone from gen z to boomers are online 24/7 now there is a greater case to be made that arguing marxist theory in the overwatch general chat reaches more people than selling newspapers. Doesn't mean that the newspaper sellers aren't good people tho
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Sep 29, 2018 18:09
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Infernot posted:You getting your theory from internet weirdos? I am grateful to say that I managed to radicalize offline. in general I kind of hate any kind of "doing politics" online, because the internet has a way of bringing out the worst in people. for example, this forum is about the highest level of political discourse I've seen on the internet. this statement is not complimentary. Mr. Lobe fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Sep 29, 2018 |
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Sep 29, 2018 18:11
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