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A Bystander posted:My memory of 2 is admittedly pretty spotty, but I thought even then the NCR had some issues after Sandi bit it. The thing that happens in 2 is that the NCR replaces all cultural identity with their own.
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Sep 30, 2018 11:20
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tbh i'm honestly fine with the ncr being a lesson in why liberal interventionism is not always a good thing the ncr is an imperial power in a lot of ways, interested in the resources of the area and its strategic position to make a stand against the weirdo ren-faire types next door. they don't really care shout the people here because the people here are very far away, don't vote and have something they want
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Sep 30, 2018 11:24
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House also stops being a power once you remember that he has no infrastructure outside of a few casinos. He has killbots, sure, but no way to replenish any losses, build materiel, or generally re-settle the wasteland. He's also not showing any interest at all in the people other than knowing that, in some abstract sense, they're necessary for getting off the planet. An upgrade that gives the Securitrons hands as the player watches them restore the old House factory would be way scarier, since House wouldn't just receive a 240% boost to his firepower - he would have not only the strongest industrial base in New Vegas, but a degree of control over it that autocrats only dream of. While he might be fabulously wealthy, there's never any sense that the wealth is ever invested into his ambitions...Apart from his dream to own a complete snow globe collection. I think that House is imitating old-world values to his downfall there - he's stuck in the mindset of an investor, which isn't one that can work in this new world. He's caught between two forces of imperialism, and he took no responsibility for that.
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Sep 30, 2018 11:44
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Anticheese posted:House also stops being a power once you remember that he has no infrastructure outside of a few casinos. He has killbots, sure, but no way to replenish any losses, build materiel, or generally re-settle the wasteland. He's also not showing any interest at all in the people other than knowing that, in some abstract sense, they're necessary for getting off the planet. I never thought of it that way. I figure he relies on people coming to New Vegas to waste their money, and so he doesn't have to care about people. It would be p cool to have a high-Science interaction, where you can give Securitrons more dextrous upgrades (or something) and help him expand his territory. Maybe if this was a pen-and-paper RPG instead of a pixels-and-polygons RPG.
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Sep 30, 2018 14:22
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The NCR is in the Mojave because of Hoover dam, not because of the Legion. They need the region's Anticheese posted:House also stops being a power once you remember that he has no infrastructure outside of a few casinos. He has killbots, sure, but no way to replenish any losses, build materiel, or generally re-settle the wasteland. He's also not showing any interest at all in the people other than knowing that, in some abstract sense, they're necessary for getting off the planet. House's resources, or lack thereof, is another piece of semi-cut content; the Platinum Chip also lets House restart the Lucky 38's self-sustaining reactor, which (in cut material) is indicated to be many times more powerful than any other power source, more than equivalent to the Hoover Dam. There is a cut bit (because it's way less impressive in-engine than intended) where after leaving the Fort, Victor approaches you and leads you to a cliff, where you see the entirety of Vegas go from "slightly lit" to "disney electric light parade". This also expands House's electronic reach across the entire region, and it's the reason he's confident in the rest of his development capabilities. Ultimately House's weaknesses are the plot device agentic superiority of the player, Benny's betrayal, and the timing of the delivery of the Platinum Chip. The latter of these would be significant if they weren't the only times he is wrong, ever.
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Sep 30, 2018 20:16
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Maybe it's because I usually go Wild Card, but I like the casino allegory Obsidian set up. The House always wins. Occasionally the House doesn't win, but over time they'll come out on top. Mr. House makes a few errors in judgment, but if all goes to plan he gets his way anyways. The only way he doesn't win is if the Courier - the Wild Card - decides to buck the trend, in the service of another power or on their own initiative. The problem is that there's a casino allegory sitting right in the middle of a Cold War allegory. We end up with US But More Incompetent versus Soviets But Worse versus the nigh-omniscient demigod in his tower in Vegas.
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Sep 30, 2018 21:43
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Fperson1 posted:The problem is that there's a casino allegory sitting right in the middle of a Cold War allegory. We end up with US But More Incompetent versus Soviets But Worse versus the nigh-omniscient demigod in his tower in Vegas. A man in a high castle, as it were.
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Sep 30, 2018 22:11
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Fperson1 posted:The problem is that there's a casino allegory sitting right in the middle of a Cold War allegory. We end up with US But More Incompetent versus Soviets But Worse versus the nigh-omniscient demigod in his tower in Vegas. I have to admit it never really felt much like a Cold War allegory to me, probably because it's very much a hot war with the two sides actually engaging each other. There's none of the MAD policy that defined the Cold War, none of the proxy fighting that defined the Cold War, none of the jockeying for international prestige, none of the spy witch hunts, etc. The Cold War was more a diplomatic and economic problem than a military one, a lot of the time, and it was in doubt whether there would actually be a conflict of any kind before it ended. With this, the conflict is already on the table and the clock is ticking down towards it so... it doesn't feel very Cold War.
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Oct 1, 2018 00:07
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The parallels between the United States and the New California Republic are also far clearer than the parallels between the USSR and Caesar's Legion. The Soviet Union certainly wasn't capitalist, but fundamentally it was based on Enlightenment principles and came out of the same post-Renaissance European intellectual tradition that spawned the United States. Both were nations of settled, agricultural peoples, both had Christian backgrounds (even if one lacked an established religion and the other was officially atheist), and in general I think it is fair to say that there were far more similarities than differences between the two. The USSR's economic system ostensibly emerged as a criticism to that ostensibly followed by the USA; Marx was, after all, one of the earliest and most influential economists. Caesar's Legion is a far, far more reactionary society; it's not Enlightenment, it's Bronze Age. The trappings are Roman, of course, but they're only skin deep; there's none of the superb Roman achievements in organization and logistics, law and legalism, construction and engineering, language and education... in practice it feels more like, and really is, a horde of nomadic barbarians following a single Great Man than a settled, agricultural nation. Sticking to the Russia theme, I'd say they're more the heirs of the Golden Horde than they are of Muscovy. It's hard to see the modern parallels, as the last time a nomadic people seriously threatened western society was probably the 13th century. My hot take is that, with some localized and temporary exceptions, it's been all downhill for the nomadic lifestyle since 1259 at the latest.
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Oct 1, 2018 01:31
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I always thought the game was about reconciling the past with the present. Never really thought about it as a concrete X vs Y allegory. Edit: David Corbett posted:in practice it feels more like, and really is, a horde of nomadic barbarians following a single Great Man than a settled, agricultural nation. I feel like every major town and faction in the game is a cult of personality. (Which is funny because the original Fallout 1 trait was garbage.  )I brought my Drake fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 01:57
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queserasera posted:I feel like every major town and faction in the game is a cult of personality. (Which is funny because the original Fallout 1 trait was garbage. Apparently its effect is completely bugged to nonexistence in Fallout 2.
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Oct 1, 2018 02:30
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PurpleXVI posted:What I'm saying is that it feels like the writers went that extra length to add a bunch of unpleasant facts to the only non-autocratic force in the game, while doing their best to hype up the Autocrats like House and Caesar and give them long lists of accomplishments and people chanting their glories, while the NCR basically only gets people(even on its own side) complaining about how it's unfair and mean and has TAXES, bloo bloo bloo, and they're all corrupt and etc. etc.. So from that angle, it definitely feels like the writers wanted to cheer for the autocrats and wanted you to see how cool and badass they were and the only proper hope for the future. To be fair this is sort of how it works in the real world too. NCR citizens are free to explain to the player why their system sucks because they are allowed to say whatever they want; but the people who get marginalized under Caesar and House are also not really in a position to protest it. It's not like the slaves that Caesar keeps can just run up to you and tell you how mean that Lanius guy is; the best you get is whispered implications from a couple of them, and everyone else is too afraid of being crucified to step out of line. In the case of House the only people you meet who are really in the same boat are a few people in Freeside and the Vault 21 crowd, all of whom go out of their way to not directly accuse him of anything even if they have beefs. Meanwhile the families running the casinos and the legionnaires are not only fairly thrilled to be in privileged positions, they're also the majority of people you will meet representing either faction. There are legitimate criticisms of the NCR, particularly the subplots you get about the caravan cartels and about Heck Gunderson; but I think in this case it's mostly just a realistic portrayal of the NCR aping a society that values freedom of speech, so its citizens are allowed to bitch about how things are going.
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Oct 1, 2018 04:33
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David Corbett posted:The parallels between the United States and the New California Republic are also far clearer than the parallels between the USSR and Caesar's Legion. I can't get into the Legion's USSR parallels yet.
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Oct 1, 2018 05:51
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I don't know if it's come up in this game as some of it is locked behind supporting the Legion, and more is a spoiler so I won't go into it, but it's pretty explicit that the Legion is going to fail spectacularly in its supposed sole positive that it brings order to conquered territory. The Legion apes Rome because it needs a culture to impose on conquered tribes to suppress their own, but unlike Rome there's no greater ideal or polity they serve. It's entirely dependent on Caesar, and the moment he dies or suffers a defeat big enough to shatter his credibility, the "empire" and law and order it provides will collapse. The game's writing is pretty explicit about that.
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Oct 1, 2018 05:56
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aniviron posted:To be fair this is sort of how it works in the real world too. NCR citizens are free to explain to the player why their system sucks because they are allowed to say whatever they want; but the people who get marginalized under Caesar and House are also not really in a position to protest it. It's not like the slaves that Caesar keeps can just run up to you and tell you how mean that Lanius guy is; the best you get is whispered implications from a couple of them, and everyone else is too afraid of being crucified to step out of line. In the case of House the only people you meet who are really in the same boat are a few people in Freeside and the Vault 21 crowd, all of whom go out of their way to not directly accuse him of anything even if they have beefs. Meanwhile the families running the casinos and the legionnaires are not only fairly thrilled to be in privileged positions, they're also the majority of people you will meet representing either faction. That's a fair argument, but even half the NCR citizens you deal with basically go: "Well, Caesar isn't a nice guy, but he sure makes the traders arrive on time!" If I wanted to credit Obsidian's writers with some insight, I'd say that they relatively accurately portrayed some members of liberal democracies' ability to fetishize Strong Man(tm) autocrats as a fix-all just because their own society has some bureaucratic hiccups.
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Oct 1, 2018 09:59
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PurpleXVI posted:That's a fair argument, but even half the NCR citizens you deal with basically go: "Well, Caesar isn't a nice guy, but he sure makes the traders arrive on time!" And the other half say "When I got this assignment, I was hoping there would be more gambling." More seriously, I'd say that the problems with the NCR are more than just bureaucratic hiccoughs though. Your everyman in the NCR has about as bad of a chance of becoming prosperous as someone in the Legion or without a major government; all signs point to the NCR already having a corrupt political machine that is every bit as entrenched as the real societies it is based on. If you have nothing, the people with money might as well be dictators as far as you are concerned.
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Oct 1, 2018 11:09
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House is basically a technocratic capitalist dictator with a nostalgic glee for the Old World. I kill him every chance I get. The one time I actually did House's bidding (because I wanted to see how it affected the ending) was a time when I played a IN<5 character with terrible Speech and Science. Gave me a roleplaying perspective to actually work for the guy, since he was clearly smarter than my PC and had a plan.
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Oct 1, 2018 11:27
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PurpleXVI posted:That's a fair argument, but even half the NCR citizens you deal with basically go: "Well, Caesar isn't a nice guy, but he sure makes the traders arrive on time!" That's entirely the point. The Legion isn't meant to be a lesser evil or flawed force for progress. They're the bad guys, and written as such. Their single selling point is that they're more stable than the NCR, for those people living under them who aren't drafted into military service, turned into slaves, or brutally tortured and murdered for laughs. That this works for that one merchant in the camp and that their strongman propaganda works is nothing more than an indictment of totalitarianism. The Courier can't ever make a case for supporting the Legion outside of doing an evil playthrough, because you're also given the option of siding with House, who is more competent than Caesar, and is "only" authoritarian rather than outright totalitarian.
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Oct 1, 2018 12:49
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I’m so glad you are going through all of this content! I played the game when my son was a baby in short, 1-2 hour chunks during nap time on the weekends. It took me so long to get through the first part of the game, by the time I got to Vegas I barely remembered who Benny was or why I should care about him. I was locked out of going to see Cesar, for some reason I kept running into assassin patrols right after getting the mark (maybe because I was with Boone?) and everyone in Cottonwood cove was automatically hostile even when I left Boone behind. I finally ended up just slaughtering everyone in Cesar’s base (which was very satisfying) but there were a lot of slave casualties and I don’t think I got to talk to anyone there at all. I also killed House by accident, as someone else mentioned I didn’t realize that going into his basement would make everything hostile. I kind of ended up with the NCR by default, although I probably would have chosen them anyway. I really need to do another play through! There is so much content and plot I totally missed. It’s hard to keep everything in this game straight when you are playing 1 hour at a time with week long breaks in between.
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Oct 2, 2018 17:12
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SchrodingersFish posted:everyone in Cottonwood cove was automatically hostile even when I left Boone behind. This may also be down to your armor. Some armor marks you automatically as a member of a faction, so unless you do something hostile while wearing it, they'll think you're one of them... and so will their enemies. So if you were wearing certain types of NCR armor, that might have gotten Caesar's goons to shoot on sight.
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Oct 2, 2018 17:39
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Let's put a pause on the House hollering and give it up for J.E. Sawyer! Chapter 60: Sun Vulture and the Tops' Talent 
ApeHawk fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Oct 3, 2018 02:42
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The Fister Sister's Heckling was gold, Ape. Got a good laugh outta me.
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Oct 3, 2018 03:08
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Seconding the love of the bad joke bombardment.
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Oct 3, 2018 04:57
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Is the "reluctantly..." part of Cass' text box prompt actually in game?
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Oct 3, 2018 05:09
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Podima posted:Is the "reluctantly..." part of Cass' text box prompt actually in game? Yes. I am not that good at photoshop and the only mod I'm running is the JSawyer director's cut.
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Oct 3, 2018 05:20
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I wish New Vegas had a development time longer than 18 loving months. With just how good the games is it's clear that there is cut content literally everywhere and I wish we could see what it would have looked like with a full development cycle.
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Oct 3, 2018 08:25
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Woah, Rope Kid is a danged musical soul. I never knew. And as is alluded to later in the update, the reason everybody knows you killed House is because everybody on the Strip gets the same obituary as the one you got when he died. This was more important to him than having any kind of failsafes for killing intruders after his death.
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Oct 3, 2018 14:35
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It's much more fun to tell House in the main room that you've decided to eat him, fight your way through his army to the back room, and then proceed to eat him, but I can understand why you didn't do that.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:19
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I just caught up on this thread over the last day or two. I can honestly say I never would have expected New Vegas to work this well as a screenshot LP, but it's turned out pretty dang enjoyable. It's... also pointed out to me that my own Unarmed run using explosives instead of melee weapons as its second weapon type has issues because of how many perks ask for a high melee weapons skill in order to give benefits that also apply to unarmed weapons. Whoops.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:37
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Jadecore posted:I just caught up on this thread over the last day or two. I can honestly say I never would have expected New Vegas to work this well as a screenshot LP, but it's turned out pretty dang enjoyable. It's... also pointed out to me that my own Unarmed run using explosives instead of melee weapons as its second weapon type has issues because of how many perks ask for a high melee weapons skill in order to give benefits that also apply to unarmed weapons. Whoops. Yeah, it's really unfortunate to have some of those perks require both high skill in Unarmed AND Melee. Not really any reason to, either.
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Oct 3, 2018 18:43
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Jadecore posted:I just caught up on this thread over the last day or two. I can honestly say I never would have expected New Vegas to work this well as a screenshot LP, but it's turned out pretty dang enjoyable. It's... also pointed out to me that my own Unarmed run using explosives instead of melee weapons as its second weapon type has issues because of how many perks ask for a high melee weapons skill in order to give benefits that also apply to unarmed weapons. Whoops. To be fair unarmed/explosives is one of the most fun builds in the game though. I just cheated and gave myself the perk via console when I met the requirements for unarmed but not melee.
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Oct 4, 2018 08:16
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aniviron posted:To be fair unarmed/explosives is one of the most fun builds in the game though. I just cheated and gave myself the perk via console when I met the requirements for unarmed but not melee. Oh no don't get me wrong it's VERY fun. I'm level 36 and loving it. Beat Dead Money the other day through copious bear trap fisting and the occasional frag grenade with about 17K bills of pre-war money. Only ever fired a gun to blow up radios or hologram emitters.
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Oct 4, 2018 17:20
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That's how I play it usually. With a high Luck that DLC goes from survival horror to survival comedy. Speaking of DM, if you refuse to help Elijah in the opening conversation, he blows up your collar with a sigh (instead of in other games where characters would say "You have to").
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Oct 5, 2018 05:49
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bony tony posted:Speaking of DM, if you refuse to help Elijah in the opening conversation, he blows up your collar with a sigh (instead of in other games where characters would say "You have to"). Oh that's nothing. I'm guessing you already know, but you can totally side with Elijah. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Gqv1dbuTw I know it's not much in terms of in-game content and it gives you a game over effectively, you have to reload a save, but I love games that give you this option, acknowledge that there are choices you can make which are valid endings, even if you're probably going to want to load a save afterwards just to play it a different way.
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Oct 5, 2018 11:54
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house's sin is hubris- that is absolutely central to his character. he thinks he's some randian ubermench but his solutions literally universally fail - he gets 99% of the way there and that last 1% dooms him. take his pre-war success - unambiguously he thrived in that hyper-capitalist red-scare atomic age but that's not supposed to be a good thing. he was the most hosed up and evil bastard of them all, and the toll of being that loving awful drives him howard-huges insane. he figures out that the war is coming - (he paints this like some incredible precognition despite the loving everyone knew that people had literally been tunnelling vaults for decades) - and builds this idiotically complex inexplicably casino themed plan to stop the missiles. the plan fails because it's too complicated by half - hindered by his paranoia and cockiness- he still thinks this was a win, he's proud of it! that's the cypher to his character - he has done nothing but fail, but thinks that because he failed marginally less than his peers he is superior. it's not his fault that the bombs fell - he has the gall to blame "democracy" for the bombs he probably manufactured. and of course the punchline is that he never was better then his peers - the smart money, the ceos of Vault Tec and the old world government just hosed off to the Enclave and left him to stew in his cyber coffin.
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Oct 5, 2018 13:31
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Woah, Rope Kid is a danged musical soul. I never knew. Well, it was probably because of the obit that he didn't. Sometimes people just know neither the day nor the hour, and it'd ruin House's legacy to indiscriminately murder anybody nearby if his spleen happened to give out.
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Oct 5, 2018 23:33
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Started playing this game again because of this thread dammit
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Oct 5, 2018 23:42
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I'm seriously thinking about busting out the PS3 to play this again. This thread got me feeling like wandering the Mojave again. Dammit, Bethesda! Why wasn't the F76 announcement a reveal of a NV remaster instead?
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Oct 6, 2018 01:25
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Why is there no Fallout 3/NV remaster? You release Skyrim on everything but not Fallout? It would make gangbusters.
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Oct 6, 2018 02:59
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loving love Fiona Apple posted:Why is there no Fallout 3/NV remaster? You release Skyrim on everything but not Fallout? It would make gangbusters. That would require Bethesda to acknowledge that Obsidian made a better Fallout game than they could.
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Oct 6, 2018 03:06
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