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Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day

MonsterEnvy posted:

The first is bullying. The second is only bullying depending purely on how it's done. (Which does not happen much on this thread actually") As there is nothing wrong with pointing out issues with rules.

Take your own advice and shut. The. gently caress. Up.

ED: you've already acknowledged that you aren't mentally/emotionally equipped to discuss this topic and by extension any topics tangentially related to it, so why do you keep posting?

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

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FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting

gradenko_2000 posted:

really? an account that's literally never posted before just comes in here to say that Zak didn't actually do the thing that he's been accused of, and it looks like we've all got some growing up to do?

So your theory is that this is a six year old sleeper account mastermind zak planted against prophesied need, now called into action on the day September the Thirtieth, in the year Two Thousand Eighteen?

I mean... its not literally impossible?

Section Z
Oct 1, 2008

Wait, this is the Moon.
How did I even get here?

Pillbug
I'm honestly surprised the thread has honest to god hit "Infinity plus one, so there" posting :smith:

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Section Z posted:

I'm honestly surprised the thread has honest to god hit "Infinity plus one, so there" posting :smith:

I'm not. How much 5e was there to talk about really? If you were thinking Fighter, pick Bard. ASIs before feats. Done!

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
it's almost like splatbooks generate lots of options for people to talk about!

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow
I'll add a sprinkle of conversation then.

Saturday DM threw a room full of mimics at us at level 6. Honestly it was a hilarious start, everyone freaking out after my monk stepped on the rug and triggered everything. Rug of Smothering, five mimics which included the double doors leading into the room, the chair and desk, and finally the FIREPLACE. Along with something like eight animated objects. All with him playing "Be Our Guest" over the Roll20 music.

The issue is we're not exactly a balanced party. The DM has helped a couple of people when they either wanted to redo their stuff but keep the character or had to make a new one entirely. So we've got a Barbarian with a +1 Greataxe who has GWM, and a full Battlemaster Fighter. But we also have a Paladin that stopped short at Level 5 to do a single level dip into Druid, with their stats so MAD they still don't have a +3 in an attack stat let alone a casting one. Then someone that has I think 4 revised ranger and 2 druid that just isn't that useful. We had another addition of a pure warlock but I'm not sure what he's going with as he seems to be Great Old One but is getting up into melee. And then there's myself, a full on Kensei Monk.

I'm sure you're seeing the problem in this party makeup, we have no real AoE and no full casters. But even so it should be fine if we focus fire, but we realized there was a problem when the (tiny) animated objects were living through up to 50ish damage... He often maxes out the hit dice, but he took the 18 AC/20 HP tiny animated objects and tripled their health.

It was a god awful slog, the DM thought we were complaining because we had a "challenge" after kicking a bunch of rear end but it wasn't a challenge, it was just horribly slow and tedious which I think he realized near the end of the session.

Normally a really fun group though, just we can't deal with huge numbers so well given our party makeup.

Edit: I feel like he wanted to figure out a way to challenge us where I couldn't do the wombo combo of inflicting stunning strike on something and then the Barb/Fighter just go ham on it. Last time I flat out told him the reason his big beefy boss died so quick is cause while he gave it Legendary Actions, it didn't seem to have Legendary Resistances.

Arthil fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Oct 1, 2018

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Arthil posted:

Last time I flat out told him the reason his big beefy boss died so quick is cause while he gave it Legendary Actions, it didn't seem to have Legendary Resistances.

yeah, anything that wants to behave as a boss needs a way to soak or avoid crowd-control effects

one mechanic I've tried before is that if you give a boss extra "turns" to match the action economy of the players, that a stun or similar effect will remove one of the turns, but allow the other ones.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

FRINGE posted:

So your theory is that this is a six year old sleeper account mastermind zak planted against prophesied need, now called into action on the day September the Thirtieth, in the year Two Thousand Eighteen?

I mean... its not literally impossible?

That's actually the kind of poo poo Zak does, so it's really not unthinkable.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
Yeah from what I understand that is extremely plausible.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you
I don't think it sounds plausible at all. Why would he bother making a sockpuppet that also insults him, disagree's with all of his points, and calls him a cancer.

Arthil
Feb 17, 2012

A Beard of Constant Sorrow

gradenko_2000 posted:

yeah, anything that wants to behave as a boss needs a way to soak or avoid crowd-control effects

one mechanic I've tried before is that if you give a boss extra "turns" to match the action economy of the players, that a stun or similar effect will remove one of the turns, but allow the other ones.

I can definitely kind of see why being able to stunlock something as a monk can come off as a "problem" to a DM.

But I mean, that's kind of all I have. I get some golden moments when I crit cause I'm a half-orc. So I'll do 3d10 with my sword, and I'll pump 2d6 extra through the Kensei smite. But other than that I focus on controlling enemies.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Arthil posted:

I can definitely kind of see why being able to stunlock something as a monk can come off as a "problem" to a DM.

But I mean, that's kind of all I have. I get some golden moments when I crit cause I'm a half-orc. So I'll do 3d10 with my sword, and I'll pump 2d6 extra through the Kensei smite. But other than that I focus on controlling enemies.

It's a very useful ability. I imagine the Monk in my upcoming Against the Giants Campaign will be super useful because of it.

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008

by vyelkin
Some friends of mine want to get into roleplaying but are having problems finidng a DM, so I'm considering trying to help them. When y'all say sotdl is better designed, does that apply to monsters? They wanted to run Pathfinder but I figured 5e was much simpler but know it has huge problems with the monster math

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

Arthil posted:

I can definitely kind of see why being able to stunlock something as a monk can come off as a "problem" to a DM.

But I mean, that's kind of all I have. I get some golden moments when I crit cause I'm a half-orc. So I'll do 3d10 with my sword, and I'll pump 2d6 extra through the Kensei smite. But other than that I focus on controlling enemies.

I mean thats kind of system problem that people complain about. You need the boss to actually do things and be threatening and provide excitement but if they are stun locked its killed all enjoyment of the fight. So you need to actually come up with some way of having the fight continue without someone taking it out of the fight in one round, which unfortunately shafts the player that used a cool ability to stunlock a boss. Skipping turns itself is a good middle ground as it is letting you kill action economy and getting value out your ability without killing the fight.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

mastershakeman posted:

Some friends of mine want to get into roleplaying but are having problems finidng a DM, so I'm considering trying to help them. When y'all say sotdl is better designed, does that apply to monsters? They wanted to run Pathfinder but I figured 5e was much simpler but know it has huge problems with the monster math

5e's Monsters are not too hard to get right. Xanathar's also has a new encounter builder that works pretty well from what I heard. (Have not used it myself, as I normally run premades.) I don't have any experience with SotDL so can't say anything about it's monsters.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

lightrook posted:

Lore Bard Hulk Hogan with Cutting Words to intimidate people and full casting to make the showmanship real? Expertise in Athletics means bards are actually a shockingly good fit for it.

I already have proficiency in performance and am gonna ham it up. I plan to be almost useless besides the grappling. My dude is going by Bad News Preacher and is just gonna talk about the legion of preachamanics. It's gonna own. Or ill die since we are level 1 and have no healer.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



MonsterEnvy posted:

I don't think it sounds plausible at all. Why would he bother making a sockpuppet that also insults him, disagree's with all of his points, and calls him a cancer.

I don't want to get into this conspiracy theory thing, but do you know who we are talking about?

Like, I don't believe that this is the case, but that is extremely his MO.

Are you aware of what the topic of conversation is?

Elector_Nerdlingen
Sep 27, 2004



kingcom posted:

I mean thats kind of system problem that people complain about. You need the boss to actually do things and be threatening and provide excitement but if they are stun locked its killed all enjoyment of the fight. So you need to actually come up with some way of having the fight continue without someone taking it out of the fight in one round, which unfortunately shafts the player that used a cool ability to stunlock a boss. Skipping turns itself is a good middle ground as it is letting you kill action economy and getting value out your ability without killing the fight.

Make the boss mechanically 2-5 monsters with their own stats/init, keep it narratively one monster.

PCs can't stun "the whole thing", just (eg) the left arm, which then doesn't get its turn this round. When a part is "killed", it stops being useful - doesn't act, doesn't do anything at all.

Disclaimer: Will not work with a group who complain about abstracted mechanics.

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

AlphaDog posted:

Make the boss mechanically 2-5 monsters with their own stats/init, keep it narratively one monster.

PCs can't stun "the whole thing", just (eg) the left arm, which then doesn't get its turn this round. When a part is "killed", it stops being useful - doesn't act, doesn't do anything at all.

Disclaimer: Will not work with a group who complain about abstracted mechanics.

lol, I mean you're not wrong. I think the most frustrating part of D&D 5e period is how incredibly lame and boring dragons are. They have zero interesting mechanics or set pieces to run with and basically require complete work from the GM to be engaging in the slightest.

MonsterEnvy posted:

I don't think it sounds plausible at all. Why would he bother making a sockpuppet that also insults him, disagree's with all of his points, and calls him a cancer.

Hey so that thing you should do about double checking your posts first. Thing is he's actually done this before, repeatedly and gotten caught from it. I think he may even have done it on this forum?

mastershakeman posted:

Some friends of mine want to get into roleplaying but are having problems finidng a DM, so I'm considering trying to help them. When y'all say sotdl is better designed, does that apply to monsters? They wanted to run Pathfinder but I figured 5e was much simpler but know it has huge problems with the monster math

Nah its not a tight 4e monster math experience, the premise is very much that 'here is a level range of monsters that will be appropriate, don't throw things above or below it' followed by 'heres your xp budget range, stick within it' and you're good to go. You are generally pretty safe to sit with that range for almost any party and you won't find many monsters that punch well above their weight like you do in 5e as save vs death isn't really a mechanic many monster have, the big exception are the big boi demons who get all kind of super powers but they are very much something you should look at only as important boss monsters anyway.

kingcom fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Oct 1, 2018

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









MonsterEnvy posted:

I don't think it sounds plausible at all. Why would he bother making a sockpuppet that also insults him, disagree's with all of his points, and calls him a cancer.

it's the only way he can soak and avoid crowd control effects

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
When I was 17, my father was so stupid, I didn't want to be seen with him in public. When I was 24, I was amazed at how much the old man had learned in just 7 years.
Is there a good way for a forge cleric to disguise themselves? Maybe even disguise a friend or two? I'm level 5 and have no idea when we will hit level 6 so if there's anything we can do before that it would be cool but going over my spell book there's nothing that sticks out.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

kingcom posted:

lol, I mean you're not wrong. I think the most frustrating part of D&D 5e period is how incredibly lame and boring dragons are. They have zero interesting mechanics or set pieces to run with and basically require complete work from the GM to be engaging in the slightest.


Dragon's have worked pretty well in my games. Lair and Legendary Actions really help. Their biggest issue is that they are all kind of similar. Short of using the Spellcasting Variant.

That monster with multiple body parts that can be disabled is a pretty cool idea.

kingcom posted:

Hey so that thing you should do about double checking your posts first. Thing is he's actually done this before, repeatedly and gotten caught from it. I think he may even have done it on this forum?


I thought he just had a normal one here until he got banned. Still I doubt beeoi is a Zak sockpuppet. He has posted here before.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



MonsterEnvy posted:


I thought he just had a normal one here until he got banned.

Well you're wrong.

Please.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



PS anyone wanna have a fun discussion on the differences between "saying trivially disprovable facts", "things people said out of complete or willful ignorance" or "denying things said because it hurts their tummy feels", and "lying", would you like to join my pedant clubhouse?

Posting things that are obviously false when you know they are is called lying. Words have meaning, and not your Webster bullshit.

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

MonsterEnvy posted:

Dragon's have worked pretty well in my games. Lair and Legendary Actions really help. Their biggest issue is that they are all kind of similar. Short of using the Spellcasting Variant.

That monster with multiple body parts that can be disabled is a pretty cool idea.

I found they just lacked anything that elevated them above just some other monster. These are your titular characters and they are just kinda like, huge health pools with a bunch of attacks and also maybe they are wizards if you use the variant. They should have titanic effects that reshape the whole game system, you should have big team efforts to punch a hole in the dragons scales to allow you hurt a dragon. You need like phases of mechanics, a real set piece location that lets it move without just letting it fly around. A chunk of the game mechanics should be about getting on top of the dragon to Shadow of the Colossus that poo poo given how important to a dragon's survival flying is but theres kinda nothing to think about it or do anything with it. Plus theres no real support or rules for taking it down piece by piece, hampering its wings, punching a hole in it's armour and then optional things like cuttting off its tail, taking out its eyes, piecing its gut to take out its breath attack, before taking it down. Fighting a dragon should be like besieging a castle not just clearing a room in a dungeon.

koreban
Apr 4, 2008

I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.
Fun Shoe

Pollyanna posted:

So? What's the problem here?

EDIT: Actually, no, forget this.

Original context was posted in response to people claiming Matt Mercer was some sort of enabler because he was friends with Satine Phoenix and she’s persona non grata.

I was pointing out that Mercer and Critical Role were bending over backwards to promote inclusivity and representation in their game.

Stop assuming I’m dropping alt-right gotchas and quoting 1-2 paragraphs out of context to try to bait me.

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

koreban posted:

Original context was posted in response to people claiming Matt Mercer was some sort of enabler because he was friends with Satine Phoenix and she’s persona non grata.

I was pointing out that Mercer and Critical Role were bending over backwards to promote inclusivity and representation in their game.

Stop assuming I’m dropping alt-right gotchas and quoting 1-2 paragraphs out of context to try to bait me.

I think you might have quoted the wrong thing originally, that person was not talking about Matt Mercer, that was Arthil who brought up CR as an 'are they also guilty by associating?' as a hypothetical slippery slope, the discussion was on Satine who was friends with Zak, thats kinda what the topic was all about.

Nihilarian
Oct 2, 2013


I should probably try critical role again

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Arthil posted:

I can definitely kind of see why being able to stunlock something as a monk can come off as a "problem" to a DM.

But I mean, that's kind of all I have. I get some golden moments when I crit cause I'm a half-orc. So I'll do 3d10 with my sword, and I'll pump 2d6 extra through the Kensei smite. But other than that I focus on controlling enemies.

It's definitely not an easy issue to tackle: if you have a single boss monster with a single "turn", all on its own, then hitting it with a stun means the fight is effectively over, unless the monster is so tough that the race is whether or not you can kill it before the stun wears off (which is a gimmick I've also pulled off once)

You generally always want to have multiple monsters in every fight to avoid this. The stun still helps since you can "mission-kill" an enemy without having to deplete its HP to zero, but the DM doesn't lose all agency.

Or, alternatively, the boss has multiple turns, and the stun still helps since the Ogre Overlord getting to swing his 5d10 club only three times instead of four is still a significant load off the party.

(the other OTHER design principle to think about, but isn't directly relevant to your experience, is that a game shouldn't have so many stuns in it, and you shouldn't have stuns that last long enough to completely shut down a target for the entire encounter)

koreban
Apr 4, 2008

I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.
Fun Shoe

kingcom posted:

I think you might have quoted the wrong thing originally, that person was not talking about Matt Mercer, that was Arthil who brought up CR as an 'are they also guilty by associating?' as a hypothetical slippery slope, the discussion was on Satine who was friends with Zak, thats kinda what the topic was all about.

The guilt by association stuff was being thrown out pretty hard, but you may be right that I was reading more into it than was intended.

Either way, the idea that 5e is bad because a shitlord did some creditable consulting in a book 4 years ago that can never be made right by 4 years of actively promoting inclusivity in the community is a bonkers bad faith argument.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

koreban posted:

Either way, the idea that 5e is bad because a shitlord did some creditable consulting in a book 4 years ago that can never be made right by 4 years of actively promoting inclusivity in the community is a bonkers bad faith argument.

prior to playing 5e, Matt Mercer's group was using Pathfinder. That they're using 5e as their current system of choice is separate and apart from whatever progressivism Mercer extols. Not only would he probably be doing just as well creating multi-cultural NPCs in any other system, the choice itself to use 5e is driven as much by market forces as anything else

koreban
Apr 4, 2008

I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.
Fun Shoe

gradenko_2000 posted:

It's definitely not an easy issue to tackle: if you have a single boss monster with a single "turn", all on its own, then hitting it with a stun means the fight is effectively over, unless the monster is so tough that the race is whether or not you can kill it before the stun wears off (which is a gimmick I've also pulled off once)

You generally always want to have multiple monsters in every fight to avoid this. The stun still helps since you can "mission-kill" an enemy without having to deplete its HP to zero, but the DM doesn't lose all agency.

Or, alternatively, the boss has multiple turns, and the stun still helps since the Ogre Overlord getting to swing his 5d10 club only three times instead of four is still a significant load off the party.

(the other OTHER design principle to think about, but isn't directly relevant to your experience, is that a game shouldn't have so many stuns in it, and you shouldn't have stuns that last long enough to completely shut down a target for the entire encounter)

The legendary actions system sort of deals with this since they are all taken as reactions after player turns. The boss creature can use resistance to ignore the stun, then do a wing buffet after the caster’s turn to push back the melee characters, maybe a tail swipe after the fighter’s turn, etc.

The idea of making a creature an amalgamation of 4-5 creatures with unique abilities, HP pools, etc. is a novel one, but you can just be more liberal and creative with legendary actions to basically achieve the same thing.

On a personal style note, short of something like vorpal weapons being involved, I generally want my boss monsters to be fully capable until they go down, similar to my players. The idea that they can nova from the outset to reduce the effectiveness of the boss by 25, or 50, or 75% isn’t something I want to reward. I’d rather they believe that the creature is just as dangerous at 1hp as it was at 200hp, because I know for sure that my players are.

I’m *really* digging Pathfinder 2E playtest’s wounded system when players go down to unconscious states and are brought back using heals. Having longer term reprocussions to being taken to 0hp is a good idea and might be a worthy houserule to consider.

koreban
Apr 4, 2008

I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.
Fun Shoe

gradenko_2000 posted:

prior to playing 5e, Matt Mercer's group was using Pathfinder. That they're using 5e as their current system of choice is separate and apart from whatever progressivism Mercer extols. Not only would he probably be doing just as well creating multi-cultural NPCs in any other system, the choice itself to use 5e is driven as much by market forces as anything else

A previous post I made on this topic highlighted that Mearls himself has a pride flag for his twitter avatar. There have also been posts, tweets, and discussions by Mearls and Chris Perkins that I’ve seen that promote inclusiveness at the gaming table.

I don’t want to be some sort of white knight for every wrong that people are accusing WotC and D&D of in this edition, but the Zak S thing is really pushing credibility given everything else in context.

It’s fair to accuse Mearls of being tone deaf, or not responding appropriately to this one particular issue. But he’s definitively not some nazi sympathizer and WotC aren’t out to get the gays. That Quartering guy would have a shitload less to complain about them if they were.

beeoi
Mar 4, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

really? an account that's literally never posted before just comes in here to say that Zak didn't actually do the thing that he's been accused of, and it looks like we've all got some growing up to do?

I apologize for the fact that SA is literally the worst forum I have ever used for things that don't even involve the userbase, and that it doesn't properly log my posts or even show a postcount because hey any sort of QOL-improvement stemming from a year later than 2004 is apparently too much for this place.

That that you would immediately jump to the conclusion that I am a sockpuppet with zero evidence because I didn't call for the crucifixion of a narcissistic manchild who never grew up out of the artschool mentality really only just proves that the lot of you have zero sense of gravitas and are too blinded by hatred to actually prop up a case against this guy--which is literally the easiest thing ever, most tabletop-aligned people I know IRL usually opt out of anything related to Zak or his friends with just a few sentences explaining what he does for a living and the kind of work he puts out. The major reason why I'm not affiliated with any tabletop community and a big reason why I've lately distanced myself from TRPGs in general is because every loving place I find is either filled with his shills or frothing at the mouth with hatred over him. You guys have always been right about one thing, which is that DND causes brain damage. The fact that the standard for quality in TRPGs is so incredibly low means that art frauds like him can just coast off of works that ride on style and get award after award for it. Places like SA that recognize their products as poo poo and their business practices as immoral and manipulative could be trying to teach the addled masses what a goddamn decent RPG is and how to read the fine print on hazy, drab OSR poo poo, but you're too busy mouthing people off and coming up with Alex Jones-level conspiracy nonsense. You aren't convincing anyone, you're just bitching that the industry is the way it is while Zak S is trying to "terrorize [TRPG players] with quality". And because no one loving knows what quality is, it'll work.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
oh my god here we loving go again with this "you guys are so caught up in this consultant business that you won't even talk about how D&D 5e is a bad game all by itself"

it is! we know! It's been 1500 pages of people telling everyone else that it's a bad game, followed by everyone else pushing back with "but I had fun! and the rules are supposed to be half-empty!"

pay some loving attention

and that's besides the point that your inane "yelling about how bad he is, is only pushing more people towards him" is 100% yet another red flag for your disingenuous bullshit

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
Man koreban you are extremely good at erecting and destroying straw men. You keep trying to make arguments for myself and other people that we never said, and then you respond to those constructed arguments as if they have any value. You are EXCEEDINGLY good at poorly arguing and in bad faith to boot.

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

koreban posted:

The legendary actions system sort of deals with this since they are all taken as reactions after player turns. The boss creature can use resistance to ignore the stun, then do a wing buffet after the caster’s turn to push back the melee characters, maybe a tail swipe after the fighter’s turn, etc.

The idea of making a creature an amalgamation of 4-5 creatures with unique abilities, HP pools, etc. is a novel one, but you can just be more liberal and creative with legendary actions to basically achieve the same thing.

I disagree pretty much on all of this. So the solution the game goes with is wizard hit points, while funny, really aren't a lot of fun to play with. Having a creature just tell you nah it didn't happen is really unenjoyable and frustrating as the process to getting to that point is already about getting past their defences. So having a whole separate pool you have to burn through before you get to apply anything interesting is not particularly satisfying. On top of that, when you do get past that resource, you can end the fight in a pretty anticlimactic way.

Having that resource instead strip away actions entirely makes it feel like a really big win when that big monster fails its save as you've really burnt out some of its power but it means the fight definitely isn't over yet. It's a way for the players to feel great that they've made an impact and for the fight to still maintain a lot of tension. Legendary reactions definitely can contribute to that sense of danger but you actually need some interesting monster power that really can shake things up. I found too often, especially with a dragon you get pretty clear cut knowledge of what they are going to do every time. I mean they only have the wing and tail slap and thats really it for their reactions. There isn't a whole lot more you can throw into the mix and feel creative with. I tail whip with it if i want to do more damage and if it needs to get clear it wing attacks.

EDIT: An Ancient Dragon should be doing a bit more than that surely.

kingcom fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Oct 1, 2018

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

kingcom posted:

EDIT: An Ancient Dragon should be doing a bit more than that surely.

The lair actions help there. They are nicely personalized to the type of Dragon rather then all Dragons sharing the same ones like Legendary actions.

I do think that each type of Dragon should at least have an unique legendary or even normal action as well.

Pleads
Jun 9, 2005

pew pew pew


kingcom posted:

Having a creature just tell you nah it didn't happen is really unenjoyable and frustrating as the process to getting to that point is already about getting past their defences.

While I like legendary actions as a way to allow one single monster to act more frequently during a fight, the legendary resistance thing is something I've never put into a game even when the monster stat block says to. Especially since it's at-will, it's just a total dick move. I might end up using it in an upcoming battle in a magic-heavy setting, but it will be telegraphed ahead of time and also be first-come, first-used, so the party can plan to overwhelm the mob with like... cantrips and poo poo (still using their action on basically nothing) before busting out the big guns. Maybe, maybe, I'll make it only work on 1st level spells or higher, so they can't just spam Sacred Flame to get around it. I'd rather my players make a fight a lot easier and feel like badasses than punish them because they tried to drop a nuke.

I hadn't played anything high-level when I first saw it come into play in Critical Role and immediately went "that's a terrible design" because the table just deflated after this climactic build up of the player describing their actions.

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koreban
Apr 4, 2008

I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.
Fun Shoe

kingcom posted:

I disagree pretty much on all of this. So the solution the game goes with is wizard hit points, while funny, really aren't a lot of fun to play with. Having a creature just tell you nah it didn't happen is really unenjoyable and frustrating as the process to getting to that point is already about getting past their defences. So having a whole separate pool you have to burn through before you get to apply anything interesting is not particularly satisfying. On top of that, when you do get past that resource, you can end the fight in a pretty anticlimactic way.

Maybe it's because I also play miniature wargames where you can hit and wound an opponent and the opponent gets a chance to make a save and negate the damage, but this wasn't something that was an issue for me. Additionally, you can reskin the legendary resistance to be a use of the Shield spell for hits against AC, or a version that reduces spell DC by some amount for save-or-suck spells to be functionally the same thing.

quote:

Having that resource instead strip away actions entirely makes it feel like a really big win when that big monster fails its save as you've really burnt out some of its power but it means the fight definitely isn't over yet. It's a way for the players to feel great that they've made an impact and for the fight to still maintain a lot of tension. Legendary reactions definitely can contribute to that sense of danger but you actually need some interesting monster power that really can shake things up. I found too often, especially with a dragon you get pretty clear cut knowledge of what they are going to do every time. I mean they only have the wing and tail slap and thats really it for their reactions. There isn't a whole lot more you can throw into the mix and feel creative with. I tail whip with it if i want to do more damage and if it needs to get clear it wing attacks.

EDIT: An Ancient Dragon should be doing a bit more than that surely.

Players have lots of ways of overcoming monster abilities in addition to the narrative assumption (especially in TotM gameplay) that they can argue "but I was standing against the corner for some cover" or "I was totally behind that wall" that the boss creature, usually by virtue of a sympathetic benefit of the doubt DM, doesn't apply the other way.

As MonsterEnvy and Pleads mentioned below (and in case you have him on ignore) Lair Actions are a huge part of Dragon encounters. It really is a required function of the encounter, otherwise they're virtually trivial in all the ways people rightfully point out that 5e lacks for combat sophistication.

At my own table I really like to make use of the whole range of legendary creature actions and lair actions for boss fights. I will often downscale them significantly to use for low level boss fights as well because they are what help the boss encounters stand out to the players versus just another combat, only this one's got a bigger bag of HP and slightly harder attacks.

Example: The wizard dude in the Redbrand hideout in LMoP: I had him using his Alchemy laboratory for his lair. He was in the process of concocting something when the players entered the room and the subsequent fight meant that he wasn't monitoring the experiment or concentrating on his stabilization spells. Immediately flasks and beakers started exploding or boiling over, causing caustic ooze to spill out, or noxious gas. I didn't overload the players with damage from these things, but it created some exciting maneuvering and repositioning opportunities, as well as reactions where the wizard could throw a beaker at someone or react by dodging behind a copper still that took the (single use of legendary resistance to avoid a paladin's critical hit) which caused the paladin to hit the still, break the pressure vessel and pour out steam that clouded the wizard's retreat to his bedchamber.

Sure, the paladin was disappointed that he didn't get to use his divine smite on the crit, but the Wizard was at like 12/22 HP and he had only acted once in a combat round and reacted once with a thrown beaker.

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