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Does anybody know anything about the CN 75-50 gun on the Israeli M50 overhaul of the Sherman? Somebody is trying to convince me that it's a direct copy of the 7.5cm KwK 42 on the Panther which sounds like total bullshit but I'm looking for some more solid proof than "they don't really look alike to my untrained eye." Also, just the M50 Sherman in general? I was lucky enough to see one IRL and am kind of intrigued by it, but googling "Super Sherman" just gets the M51 and googling the M50 specifically gets only dodgy-looking unsourced sites that look like they were designed in 2003. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 05:10
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I believe that was asked before or in the prior thread. General consensus seems to be that the guns are similar, but probably not direct copies of eachother. Arguments for it being a copy leans towards the fact that the French used German tech post-ww2 and that the calibers are similar, as well as some mechanisms. Arguments against are that the barrel is shortened, the mechanism was modified for autoloaders, and the case diameter is different.
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Oct 1, 2018 05:22
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Nenonen posted:We used to have to get up at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the sunken road clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at the watch for fourpence every four years, and when we got to attack, the hun would slice us in two with a serrated bayonet. Ah, you were lucky...
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Oct 1, 2018 06:14
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The Angry VDV Man laughs at your puny videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlQ6KqTlyfk
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Oct 1, 2018 06:57
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A soaring dome of rainbow peace to strike terror into the hearts of Russia's enemies
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Oct 1, 2018 07:04
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Nuclear War posted:The Angry VDV Man laughs at your puny videos. I prefer the Vysadkari Super Song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4lYAPO81y8
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Oct 1, 2018 08:35
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Fangz posted:Needs to be longer if they wanna be the Illiad They poo poo out 14 albums and don't seem ready to stop any time soon, so they'll probably get there. Comrade Koba posted:In my experience, the Venn diagram of “people who listen to Sabaton” and “people with lovely far-right opinions” is drat near a circle. Not even close. Sabaton, like Manowar and Dragonforce and stuff, tends to have a minority of very vocal fascist fans who everyone else shits on. Tias fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 08:48
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Crazycryodude posted:Does anybody know anything about the CN 75-50 gun on the Israeli M50 overhaul of the Sherman? Somebody is trying to convince me that it's a direct copy of the 7.5cm KwK 42 on the Panther which sounds like total bullshit but I'm looking for some more solid proof than "they don't really look alike to my untrained eye." Just guessing, but I'd assume it's the American 75mm (maybe a better/longer upgrade of the E8 gun, but essentially the same at the big end). Weird how everybody settled on the same calibers, 75mm/76mm/7.5cm are all 3".
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Oct 1, 2018 08:57
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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Chillbro Baggins posted:Weird how everybody settled on the same calibers, 75mm/76mm/7.5cm are all 3". I mean, everything now is 120mm/125mm. I guess there tends to be a consensus.
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Oct 1, 2018 11:51
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Chillbro Baggins posted:Just guessing, but I'd assume it's the American 75mm (maybe a better/longer upgrade of the E8 gun, but essentially the same at the big end). There are a whole lot of 75 mm and 3 inch guns turning up around 1900, I guess it's probably a good compromise between weight, cost, ammunition handling (and thus rate of fire) and effect. Plus once you've tooled up to churn out guns in that calibre you're probably not going to be too keen on switching to a larger calibre - how adaptable is barrel-making/-rifling machinery? feedmegin posted:I mean, everything now is 120mm/125mm. I guess there tends to be a consensus. Why did the IS tanks use two-part ammunition but the Abrams gets away with one-piece loading? Is it just down to ergonomics of the loader's station? Are the modern 120 rounds lighter or otherwise easier to handle? GotLag fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 12:12
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GotLag posted:Why did the IS tanks use two-part ammunition but the Abrams gets away with one-piece loading? Is it just down to ergonomics of the loader's station? Are the modern 120 rounds lighter or otherwise easier to handle? The IS's 122mm projectile weighs about 25 kilos. The Abram's weighs around 10kg, depending on the ammo type. Barrel diameter is only one dimension, the IS's gun was a big-rear end artillery gun firing a huge projectile at a relatively slow speed, the Abrams' projectile is smaller and flies almost three times faster.
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Oct 1, 2018 12:35
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The most practical reason is because the D-25 was based on a howitzer that used separate shell and propellant.
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Oct 1, 2018 12:38
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At some point I'd really like to lean more about gun design because other than Rifling and the history of musket lock development I really don't know much about it other than 'they're really well made hollow steel tubes'. The intricacies of why a gun needs a breach-block or vent or various stage ammunition is really interesting.
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Oct 1, 2018 12:46
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Alchenar posted:At some point I'd really like to lean more about gun design because other than Rifling and the history of musket lock development I really don't know much about it other than 'they're really well made hollow steel tubes'.
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Oct 1, 2018 12:58
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HEY GUNS posted:if you find out why 16th/17th c asian muskets look graceful and forwrd-leaning but western muskets look like furniture, let me know because filthy gwailos is why
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Oct 1, 2018 13:03
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Geisladisk posted:The IS's 122mm projectile weighs about 25 kilos. The Abram's weighs around 10kg, depending on the ammo type. Barrel diameter is only one dimension, the IS's gun was a big-rear end artillery gun firing a huge projectile at a relatively slow speed, the Abrams' projectile is smaller and flies almost three times faster. Also before Rheinmetall 120mm most guns with single-piece ammo had brass case. 105 full-length casing is a shitton of extra weight compared to 120mm combustble case. I dont even want to think a fullcased 122mm inside a tank that had ”Soviet wartime” crew ergonomy.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:17
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HEY GUNS posted:if you find out why 16th/17th c asian muskets look graceful and forwrd-leaning but western muskets look like furniture, let me know I like how the trigger is positioned waaay back so you can actually aim down the barrel without having your face right above the flash pan.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:46
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HEY GUNS posted:if you find out why 16th/17th c asian muskets look graceful and forwrd-leaning but western muskets look like furniture, let me know If you hit someone with a jezail will it break? Siivola posted:Some random Japanese musketeer claims Japanese guns' stocks are as they are to make them easier to use in armour. Instead of bracing it on your shoulder, you lean it against your face: http://budojapan.com/feature-articles/fire/ I like the hinawaju action shot with sparks everywhere GotLag fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 13:50
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Other deeper reasons for the difference between the 122 and the 120 I think are: 1. Sabotted munitions were insufficiently mature for the Soviets to adopt them in a big way. The actual projectile from an Abrams can be thus much smaller than the bore, once the sabot is discarded. 2. Issues to do with the metallurgy of making the barrels making it difficult to make guns that reliably hold a high pressure, and thus allow higher velocities vs having just bigger shells. IIRC soviet engineers acknowledged this was specifically a problem they had, which led to them adopting the 85mm vs something like the higher velocity 75mm on the Panther. 3. The need for good HE capability. For WWII tanks in the late war, the majority of shells fired will be HE shells at targets appropriate to that (e.g. AT guns, fortifications) - note that of the 28 rounds carried by a IS-2, 20 of them will be 22 kg HE-FRAG shells. The Abrams does not (AFAICT) even have a HE fragmentation shell. Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 13:52
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For m1 heat and later MPAT and OR Were the ”he” replacers
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Oct 1, 2018 14:00
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What's OR? It's not exactly easy to Google
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Oct 1, 2018 14:02
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Obstacle reduction. Heat with delay fuze and steel headcone.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:09
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Fangz posted:The Abrams does not (AFAICT) even have a HE fragmentation shell. Abrams lack of boom has been a big problem for a long time. The army's solution is to create a miracle "6 in 1" round that kills everything including helicopters for one low low (not low) price.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:47
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Valtonen posted:Also before Rheinmetall 120mm most guns with single-piece ammo had brass case. 105 full-length casing is a shitton of extra weight compared to 120mm combustble case. I dont even want to think a fullcased 122mm inside a tank that had ”Soviet wartime” crew ergonomy. Hey! ISU-152 crews got a *cushion*
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Oct 1, 2018 14:56
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Siivola posted:Some random Japanese musketeer claims Japanese guns' stocks are as they are to make them easier to use in armour. Instead of bracing it on your shoulder, you lean it against your face: [url]http://budojapan.com/feature-articles/fire/[/url what gorgeous guns GotLag posted:If you hit someone with a jezail will it break?  edit: that is my current theory though, that western gunsmiths assumed you would also be using it as a club HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 14:57
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I recently went to another castle in western Japan, one of the few remaining originals, and the day I was there they had a squad of musketeers doing some synchronized firing with reproduction tanegashima. Lemme see if I can find some of the pictures I took and if any are any good, and I'll post them.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:21
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Siivola posted:Some random Japanese musketeer claims Japanese guns' stocks are as they are to make them easier to use in armour. Instead of bracing it on your shoulder, you lean it against your face: http://budojapan.com/feature-articles/fire/ That actually makes sense. Shouldering a traditional rifle stock is awkward as hell when you're wearing a plate carrier so it must be tough in armor too.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:31
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Friar John posted:I recently went to another castle in western Japan, one of the few remaining originals, and the day I was there they had a squad of musketeers doing some synchronized firing with reproduction tanegashima. Lemme see if I can find some of the pictures I took and if any are any good, and I'll post them. This reminds of a video I saw recently of a Japanese archery drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJVC6ExVUi4 It reminded me of those screens you shared of large Japanese formations. It's pretty easy to imagine the guys in the front in the v formation advancing like this, really helped bring the art to life.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:58
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Siivola posted:Some random Japanese musketeer claims Japanese guns' stocks are as they are to make them easier to use in armour. Instead of bracing it on your shoulder, you lean it against your face: http://budojapan.com/feature-articles/fire/ Squalid posted:This reminds of a video I saw recently of a Japanese archery drill Really interesting video! Was it possible to shoot bows while wearing a full harness?
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Oct 1, 2018 16:18
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HEY GUNS posted:edit: that is my current theory though, that western gunsmiths assumed you would also be using it as a club it must be effective enough given that native Americans copied the shape for their clubs. Alternatively some say it's convergent evolution, but either way I guess it's a good design for beating people to death.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:24
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Valtonen posted:For m1 heat and later MPAT and OR Were the ”he” replacers I think that however you use technology to compensate, you're still gonna get much more boom out of a 20kg projectile than a 10kg projectile. The Abrams gun seems like primarily an anti-tank weapon with some capabilities added, the 122mm on these WWII heavies were primarily HE chuckers. EDIT: It's worth noting the Soviet 2A46 125mm used on the T90s also uses two-part ammunition, and can fire a big 23kg HE projectile with a reduced power charge. Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 16:44
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Nebakenezzer posted:a great post I have few questions for Canadians:  I take it means some sort of hillbilly, but the other interpretation is funny too:   Drunk?  ]God damned? And is the 'lets the chickens go wild and rides a horse to a town' literal or figurative?  What is C.P. train short for? Travelling without a ticket?
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Oct 1, 2018 16:44
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ChubbyChecker posted:I have few questions for Canadians:
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Oct 1, 2018 16:49
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ChubbyChecker posted:I have few questions for Canadians: quote:
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Oct 1, 2018 16:49
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Gonna work corn into everything now
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Oct 1, 2018 17:03
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ChubbyChecker posted:I have few questions for Canadians: Canada was hella rural at the time, so it's entirely possible the guy did own a horse. And yeah, if you'd be abandoning your homestead letting the chickens out to forage would be better than letting them starve (or maybe he didn't want to slaughter them for meat) C.P. stands for Canada Pacific (Railways), one of the two largest railway companies in Canada that offered cross continental service. During WWII their locomotive workshops in Montreal were reassigned to building Valentine tanks. Riding freight would probably have been done without a ticket, and was more or less tolerated by the authorities depending on their mood as brought up in the previous chapter by the guy who had his hand broken by a Mountie stomping on it. e: beaten to the punch. Nine of Eight fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 17:04
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Fangz posted:I think that however you use technology to compensate, you're still gonna get much more boom out of a 20kg projectile than a 10kg projectile. The Abrams gun seems like primarily an anti-tank weapon with some capabilities added, the 122mm on these WWII heavies were primarily HE chuckers. Yes, lack of direct HE/frag round on a Leo 2 / abrams was a calculated risk. OG 120mm came with just 2 rounds- apfsds (sabot) and HEAT. Why? Because it meant that when you were at Fulda Gap whatever you happened to have loaded would OHK a DDR T62. 120mm HEAT will still make a difference against infantry, and some armies (coughcougg finns) still practise firing HEATs on treelines above dug-in crunchies as a frag funtime- Its not 125mm frag But that shower of fragments, comcussion and arm-length tree shards will ruin your day. Reason Soviet 125 is two-piece is the autoloader. Its much easier for it to ram two 10kg pieces in one at a time than one 20kg piece when tank has Cross-country shaking going on and it saves space. Only western 120 to use two-piece design to this day is CR2, and why is propably ”Because the Queen told us to”
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Oct 1, 2018 17:37
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Valtonen posted:Only western 120 to use two-piece design to this day is CR2, and why is propably ”Because the Queen told us to” That or there's not room to manhandle one-piece ammunition around the tea kettle
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Oct 1, 2018 17:47
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ChubbyChecker posted:
In Saskatchewan? That would still be literal today.
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Oct 1, 2018 19:07
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GotLag posted:That or there's not room to manhandle one-piece ammunition around the tea kettle More likely it is to save expense.
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