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Pershing posted:Ok, what heresy is this? Pelagianism. Also, best wishes to you tomorrow.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:52
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HEY GUNS posted:catholics: we had sinned against god the father, someone had to pay for it, that someone was god the son until a couple months ago I don't think I had ever heard of the idea that Jesus went down to Hell and kicked demon rear end. i don't think my dad ever mentioned it, which surprises me because of how goony he is
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Oct 1, 2018 21:05
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Re: Necessity of the cross. From Luke 5-- One day, while he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting near by (they had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem); and the power of the Lord was with him to heal. Just then some men came, carrying a paralyzed man on a bed. They were trying to bring him in and lay him before Jesus; but finding no way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down with his bed through the tiles into the middle of the crowd in front of Jesus. When he saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you." God can, and does, forgive sins whenever God wishes. Well before there was a crucified messiah. Ergo, the cross isn't necessary. BUT God so loves humanity, and desires communion with Creation, that God was always going to be incarnate among us. And humans are so lovely, that given the presence of a holy and loving God in their midst, humanity will always try to kill that God. The incarnation and the cross weren't necessary-- but they were inevitable.
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Oct 2, 2018 02:54
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Lutha Mahtin posted:until a couple months ago I don't think I had ever heard of the idea that Jesus went down to Hell and kicked demon rear end. i don't think my dad ever mentioned it, which surprises me because of how goony he is Yeah I think penal substiutionary theology is so pervasive and emphasized in Protestantism that the Harrowing of Hell is barely mentioned. Honestly I hadn't had much exposure to it until speaking with HEY GUNS. Personally I think the Jesus who stormed into the temple swinging an improvised whip and turning over the tables of the money-changers, then descended into Hell to gently caress up demons is incredibly badass. The Protestant (and especially Evangelical) emphasis on the relatively passive martyrdom of Christ does a disservice to His more assertive acts. WerrWaaa posted:Re: Necessity of the cross. Is there a name for a heresy or school of thought where I don't necessarily believe in Original Sin but do believe humans are inevitably disposed toward sinfulness. I think that might align more with Orthodox views? That is, I'm inclined to believe that we are born in a sinless and pure state, but by our nature we will sin and stray from God. edit: it's cool that Anglicanism (and ELCA Lutheranism to a somewhat lesser extent) is tolerant of a diversity of theological beliefs. Because I doubt I fit well into anything. I mean, I'd be willing to consider Orthodoxy if it was more LGBTQ-friendly but that's kind of a non-starter  Plus it's nonexistent where I live, having a faith community is incredibly important.I realize HEY GUNS identifies as somewhere on the LGBTQ spectrum, but I don't get the strong commitment from the Orthodox community that I would be comfortable with, personally. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 03:13
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Pellisworth posted:Is there a name for a heresy or school of thought where I don't necessarily believe in Original Sin but do believe humans are inevitably disposed toward sinfulness. I think that might align more with Orthodox views? That is, I'm inclined to believe that we are born in a sinless and pure state, but by our nature we will sin and stray from God. it sounds like you pretty much believe in original sin tho
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Oct 2, 2018 03:32
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Lutha Mahtin posted:it sounds like you pretty much believe in original sin tho ...no As I understand it, Original Sin in most contexts refers to the idea that we are all born bearing the sins of Adam. We're sinners at birth. I am more inclined to believe that we are born sinless and pure, because God created us in His image. However, we are human and inevitably will sin. So, we are born without sin but we're human and are destined to live a sinful life which corrupts our innately sinless origin. It's a fine distinction, but I believe we all start out pure and are doomed to slide toward sinfulness, rather than we're born sinful and that is our fundamental nature.
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Oct 2, 2018 03:44
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yeah i meant that you basically believe in 99% of the accepted version, just one part you have a problem with
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Oct 2, 2018 03:58
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Pellisworth posted:...no The story of the Fall is an attempt by ancient people to explain the observation that everyone seems to be born with an inherent tendency to sin. Exactly why we all inherently want to sin is up for debate. I would argue that a baby born on an island and raised by wolves would still be sinful, because he is human and sinfulness goes with being human. Sin is not something you catch from the environment.
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Oct 2, 2018 04:03
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Lutha Mahtin posted:yeah i meant that you basically believe in 99% of the accepted version, just one part you have a problem with nuance matters Deteriorata posted:Adam wasn't a real person, so he didn't commit any sins for us to inherit. Okay, but my understanding of Original Sin is that it's hereditary: you are born carrying the sins of Adam. Humans are not merely inclined toward sinful behavior, we are born in a state of sin. I agree that humans are fundamentally and inexorably inclined to sin. We're sinners, we're gonna do sin. But, I take issue that with the idea that we are born bearing congenital sin. Are we born sinful or is sin merely our inevitable path as humans? I'm inclined to believe the latter. edit: I guess to rephrase this, are we born in a state of sin (separation from God*) or are we born with a propensity to sinful behavior? *That's the most satisfying definition of sin I've encountered: that which separates us from God and righteousness. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 04:13
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ok its october does anyone else have strong opinions about apples
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Oct 2, 2018 04:21
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shame on an IGA posted:ok its october does anyone else have strong opinions about apples So what you're saying is, even Moses understood that Minnesota is great? I'm on board. (Honeycrisp apples were developed at the University of Minnesota's apple breeding program)
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Oct 2, 2018 04:24
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Gala and Granny Smith!
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Oct 2, 2018 04:27
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Honeycrisps are the best apple, but Fuji apples are also very good. Apples in general are one of the proofs of God's love for creation.
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Oct 2, 2018 04:28
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Thank you both.
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Oct 2, 2018 04:30
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golden delicious and red delicious are garbage
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Oct 2, 2018 04:40
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Pellisworth posted:golden delicious and red delicious are garbage It has to be some kind of plot to call the worst apples 'delicious'.
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Oct 2, 2018 04:41
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Lutha Mahtin posted:So what you're saying is, even Moses understood that Minnesota is great? I'm on board. ahem you really ought not to be calling Minnesota "great" even if it is, that's poor form it's alright, not too bad, ya'know?
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Oct 2, 2018 04:43
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I was recently reminded of the one joke I heard probably 20 times from my theology teachers in college. I suspect all theology majors in English speaking countries have heard it. "Why were the priests in Jesus' time sad? Because they were sadducee!"
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Oct 2, 2018 06:31
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HopperUK posted:I'm going to be selfish and ask that you pray for me. I fail in patience and in love more often than I'd like to. My father is very ill and it's wearing me down. I could use some strength. Peace be with you, my friend. I've found both patience and love to be a practice. The moments when you fail may also be teaching you something unavoidable about the nature of patience and love. I believe you will get better at it, as asking for help is a positive indicator of genuine practice. May you and your father find relief and strength. Pershing posted:ALSO, my next chemo round is tomorrow. Please give me your intentions so I can pray on them while I'm sitting. On my behalf, please add another prayer for your health and happiness. And what do you want me to pray for when I sit with little else to do? Thirteen Orphans posted:I was recently reminded of the one joke I heard probably 20 times from my theology teachers in college. I suspect all theology majors in English speaking countries have heard it. It's Sadducee us come to this point. Night10194 posted:Honeycrisps are the best apple, but Fuji apples are also very good. I can think of at least one apple that's been highly problematic for humanity thus far, though.
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Oct 2, 2018 06:39
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I was recently reminded of the one joke I heard probably 20 times from my theology teachers in college. I suspect all theology majors in English speaking countries have heard it. you're an honorary Lutheran for that dad joke modern Lutheranism is a faith based in equal parts on liturgical shitposting and dad jokes
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Oct 2, 2018 06:44
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I was recently reminded of the one joke I heard probably 20 times from my theology teachers in college. I suspect all theology majors in English speaking countries have heard it. The others seem to go out of their way to give everyone a break - they're fair, I see.
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Oct 2, 2018 06:46
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Deteriorata posted:The others seem to go out of their way to give everyone a break - they're fair, I see. Do you need an ark? I Noah guy.
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Oct 2, 2018 06:51
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Caufman posted:I can think of at least one apple that's been highly problematic for humanity thus far, though. I like how nearly every plausible answer for "what kind of fruit was the forbidden fruit" is based on a pun in the corresponding linguistic / cultural context.
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Oct 2, 2018 06:51
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What do you get if you fart in your wallet? Gas money. Okay, I'm sorry, I'll stop.
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Oct 2, 2018 06:56
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Pellisworth posted:you're an honorary Lutheran for that dad joke Pellisworth posted:Do you need an ark? 
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Oct 2, 2018 07:12
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Pellisworth posted:ahem you really ought not to be calling Minnesota "great" even if it is, that's poor form it is kind of woven into the Minnesota culture of Europeans who moved here, this type of understatement. this is relevant to this thread because all the Germans and Nordic people and various other ethnicities who moved here often did so because of their Christian beliefs. when you ask a pale Minnesotan how they are doing, two of the common answers you get are "not too bad" or "not too good". this is because we are incapable of making ourselves out to be important, so comparison to an actual thing while making ourselves lesser is a common rhetorical device
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Oct 2, 2018 07:24
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Lutha Mahtin posted:it is kind of woven into the Minnesota culture of Europeans who moved here, this type of understatement. this is relevant to this thread because all the Germans and Nordic people and various other ethnicities who moved here often did so because of their Christian beliefs. when you ask a pale Minnesotan how they are doing, two of the common answers you get are "not too bad" or "not too good". this is because we are incapable of making ourselves out to be important, so comparison to an actual thing while making ourselves lesser is a common rhetorical device Janteloven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante Our friend Tias certainly has a more direct experience with those cultural dynamics, but you're correct in that they largely were transmitted to Scandinavian-American communities. It's very rude and improper to talk yourself up or boast about your family situation.
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Oct 2, 2018 07:39
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The Jante-law was written by a Norwegian artist, and there's a great deal of debate about whether it applies to Danish society any longer. Certainly, rural danes, particularly in Jylland, have a tendency to never state things too forcefully, as to not appear arrogant, but I wouldn't necessarily say they are more or less arrogant than others for that reason. It's extremely common for Danish celebrities to say they poo poo on the jante-law, and in general our society seems full of arrogance and attention whoring, so I'm not really sure it's applicable any longer.
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Oct 2, 2018 08:03
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We do not believe people are born innocent. We believe people are born with the inherited tendency to sin, and may also be menaced or influenced by demons/evil spirits then, it's why they exorcise you at baptism. The saying is "everyone is a convert to Orthodoxy."Pellisworth posted:I mean, I'd be willing to consider Orthodoxy if it was more LGBTQ-friendly but that's kind of a non-starter but if a dealbreaker is being easily able to find people in the same, i don't know, entire tri-state area...in the US this is difficult. You end up going to church in storefronts a lot. I consider it an act of God's mercy toward me that I have been within walking distance of a church everywhere I've moved to as i may have mentioned, i'm on the internet a lot because that's the only way i can talk to other Orthodox a lot of the time And the queer thing varies from the placid non-issue acceptance of me to...well, they throw people off buildings in Georgia. I hope one day this will change. One of our big figures, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, recently came out in favor of gay marriage. Partly it's the words used, which signify different cultural contexts for the same acts--if you say "LGBTQ" or "gender" then that's evil western ideologies corrupting our pure land, but if you described me and never said the word trans, then they're fine. (The instant you used that word I bet they'd flip out.) As it is now though, my life might be a little similar to the lives these people had when they were young: https://www.gq.com/story/burrnesha-albanian-women-living-as-men https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/world/europe/23iht-virgins.4.13927949.html i kind of don't like the exoticizing tone of a lot of these writings, though. They're old men, let them live their lives, GQ. Cripes. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 09:17
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Pellisworth posted:...no That's not the most common understanding of Original Sin, to be honest. I think you might accidentally (?) believe what the Catechism teaches. quote:By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all humans.
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Oct 2, 2018 12:06
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shame on an IGA posted:ok its october does anyone else have strong opinions about apples The best apple is the Cox's Orange Pippin. People over-rate the fuji because it is pretty. Controversial opinion incoming: the golden delicious actually isn't that bad an apple. It gets a bad rap because people connect it in their mind with the red delicious, which is a loving travesty.
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Oct 2, 2018 15:19
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I don't remember which author put it this way, and all my Catholic apologetics books are still in a box, three years after moving, but one of them described two depictions of original sin this way: 1) Adam and Eve started out tied with Satan, then God gave Adam and Eve one point, and then they scored an own goal. Result: the game is tied. None of us have the advantage they did, and we all inherit the tendency to score own goals, sometimes lots of them. 2) Adam and Eve started out tied with Satan, then they scored an own goal and God set the score to -1 to 1. Result: the human team is not only behind, but impossibly behind. Somebody's taped a giant negative sign next to our side of the scoreboard. When Catholics say that Mary wasn't affected by original sin, we mean "she started out tied with Satan, like we did, but she didn't have the tendency to score own goals, like we do, so she never ended up behind," not "all of us started out evil, but she didn't."
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Oct 2, 2018 15:20
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Caufman posted:On my behalf, please add another prayer for your health and happiness. And what do you want me to pray for when I sit with little else to do? For the intercession of Mary Untier of Knots and the intercession of St. Peregrine, please! Prayers sent!
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Oct 2, 2018 20:07
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This weekend I'm going to a conference for Orthodox young adults in Atlanta, and I thought the thread would be interested to know about the party they're having on Saturday. The theme? Silly hats.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:14
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Keromaru5 posted:This weekend I'm going to a conference for Orthodox young adults in Atlanta, and I thought the thread would be interested to know about the party they're having on Saturday. The theme? Silly hats. Suddenly considering Orthodox as an option.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:17
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask Hell > liturgical christianity thread: the theme? silly hats
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Oct 3, 2018 17:50
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Oct 3, 2018 17:57
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hitting the highlights of the worst of Catholic reasoning https://twitter.com/inflammateomnia/status/1047182964663234560
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Oct 3, 2018 18:22
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Don't christians in general assume people of good hearts and intentions go to heaven even if separated from their particular sect? Or am I giving folks too much credit here?
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Oct 3, 2018 18:29
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It depends on the sect/denomination/Christian. Soteriology changes a lot.
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Oct 3, 2018 18:31
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