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AlphaDog posted:If there's no scope at all to have "you beat him, he returns" happen, then yep, I'm wrong as gently caress. He does eventually reform after a few months, but that's a problem for whoever was dumb enough to stay in Barovia and not the PCs, who either immediately left or stuck around and are already strong enough to defeat him. The powers that keep Strahd bound to the land just want him to suffer, so they wouldn't give a gently caress if he's just constantly coming back to get his poo poo kicked in by a group of adventurers who decided to become the new Barovian lords.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:23
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Ravenloft is so genre railroaded that having the Mists swoop in and kick out the PCs just as they're going to coup de grace Strahd is completely setting appropriate. Escaping is pretty much the best victory you can hope for.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:31
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koreban posted:missed opportunity to do the Symphony of the Night upside-down castle continuation with the "real" Strahd at the end. That wasn't Strahd, that was his half vampire son Dharts, now you have to fight the real Strahd. Also he wasn't there because he was out drinking with his friends, the medusa, Frankenstein's Monster and a giant eyeball bat, but dad's home now!
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Oct 1, 2018 23:32
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Conspiratiorist posted:He does eventually reform after a few months, but that's a problem for whoever was dumb enough to stay in Barovia and not the PCs, who either immediately left or stuck around and are already strong enough to defeat him. Given that, could you have said mysterious powers adjust the respawn timer and make him return, stronger, for no obvious player-facing reason, every time they kill him, until the "right" final encounter? That'd probably be even scarier than "he shrugs your bullshit off completely and runs away again" anyway. (Dunno if those are spoilers, trying to be safe about it). I guess that's railroad-ish but it fits the genre and even the specific setting altering only the timing Maybe I'm way off base, but that sounds like a fairly minor-effort rewrite? I mean, obviously everyone do whatever they like, but I hate the idea of a reasonable use of a PC's ability just not working because oops we didn't think about that one and it can't quite be game over just yet. e: Just thought of something that's maybe making me talk past people. Answer in spoilers if you gotta. The PC victory condition is still escape Barovia, right? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 23:33
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hyphz posted:That would break AlphaDog’s E2 principle above. He's wrong on that. If the big bad shows up to taunt you and you own him unexpectedly, hooray! Now the DM might need a week off to figure out what happens with the bbegs power structure - who is now in charge? Is it the party? Do they gain incredible renown? It's David vs Goliath and you hit the million to one shot. Own it A similar example would be my last campaign wheee I asked for thoughts about fighting a near invulnerable king. One suggestion was to use the smallpox out break we'd quarantined off and spread it to his army , which is exactly what I did. I found out later that the DM absolutely had not expected that and instead of it not working, it caused a gigantic plague, ruined their homeland, and the king found out what had happened and went berserk and started lobbing plague corpses into the fortified cities he was besieging. My character Ended up being a hated pariah who got thousands of people killed horribly just to try to stop a different king from being in charge . Thats a massively better outcome than "the plague didn't work" mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 23:38
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mastershakeman posted:He's wrong on that. If the big bad shows up to taunt you and you own him unexpectedly, hooray! Now the DM might need a week off to figure out what happens with the bbegs power structure - who is now in charge? Is it the party? Do they gain incredible renown? At a guess (my main groups don't usually do published adventures, over the last 10+ years we played maybe 3 or 4), people are particularly unwilling to say "ah, yeah, module's over" when they're only 5% through a 50 buck (or whatever cost, really) book.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:42
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mastershakeman posted:He's wrong on that. If the big bad shows up to taunt you and you own him unexpectedly, hooray! Now the DM might need a week off to figure out what happens with the bbegs power structure - who is now in charge? Is it the party? Do they gain incredible renown? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JexVC8vYABM The answer to that is that Strahd doesn't lower himself to acutally *leave* his castle. He shows up in the flames to deliver his message and summon his minions to intimidate the party.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:46
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koreban posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JexVC8vYABM I always feel like there's a certain disservice made by putting stats for a 'generic' vampire or lich down in a book. A vampire (or any other major intelligent undead) needs to be a template put on top of an existing character. Vampire thralls? Sure, whatever. But you don't just put generic stats down on Dracula.
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Oct 2, 2018 00:02
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AlphaDog posted:e: Just thought of something that's maybe making me talk past people. Answer in spoilers if you gotta. The PC victory condition is still escape Barovia, right? Yes. But so is Strahd's. The Curse of Strahd is that for all his power he will never succeed. All he has left is regrets and spite, and the unfortunate souls trapped in Barovia alongside him that he can take out his frustrations on.
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Oct 2, 2018 00:03
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AlphaDog posted:If there's no scope at all to have "you beat him, he returns" happen, then yep, I'm wrong as gently caress. There's scope within the setting. Ravenloft as a setting won't let him stay dead because it isn't done loving with him yet. Most D&D players aren't really.looking for a setting like that, though. I think the only Domain Lord that's ever actually managed to get out of Ravenloft was Lord Soth, and even then it was because the Dark Powers couldn't hurt him any worse than being back on Krynn where his own gods could screw him over for his own choices. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 00:45
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Conspiratiorist posted:Yes. In a situation where a choice is forced, Barovia itself will conspire to keep Strahd imprisoned and separate him from something that might allow him to escape, or 'escape,' from his torment. This could lead to the PCs escaping. It could also leave the PCs at the tender mercies of some other prisoner of the Demiplane. As far as I'm aware the only person who has ever escaped from the Demiplane when it had a place set aside for them was Lord Soth, who simply sat down and refused to play ball because he was too self aware.
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Oct 2, 2018 00:47
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I... think I might have remembered Soth's thing as Strahd's. It's been a long rear end time since I played any Ravenloft, and longer since I read any dragonlance. Gearhead posted:I always feel like there's a certain disservice made by putting stats for a 'generic' vampire or lich down in a book. A vampire (or any other major intelligent undead) needs to be a template put on top of an existing character. Vampire thralls? Sure, whatever. But you don't just put generic stats down on Dracula. That's D&D for you though. Reduce the vastly complex story involving Perseus son of Zeus and Medusa the Gorgon to "a medusa, which you can run up and hit to death if you make your saves".
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Oct 2, 2018 01:18
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But I want to kill it. How can I kill it if it doesn't have a numbers 
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Oct 2, 2018 01:38
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Pollyanna posted:But I want to kill it. How can I kill it if it doesn't have a numbers Be a wizard
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Oct 2, 2018 01:40
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koreban posted:Do you have an example in mind? Genuinely interested to see how it's handled in other systems. Uhh, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but you know hes talking about D&D 4e right? Also I've made all healing bonus actions, from potions, cure wounds, lay on hands etc. And god its made the back and forth of HP so much more interesting.
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Oct 2, 2018 02:05
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One of my buddies who's a regular in my RPG's asked me to run a game for 4 of his friends from work who are interested in learning about tabletop RPG's, and D&D specifically. They have no experience with traditional gaming at all, besides the Milton Bradley kind, and maybe Cards Against Humanity. I'm happy to introduce people to roleplaying, so I accepted, but need a little help from you guys. Things I know: - They want to play D&D specifically, so I'm stuck with 5e despite liking SotDL, Strike!, Dungeon World and 13th Age more, each for a different reason. - I don't want to lie to them and say we're playing "D&D" and run another system. - I feel like "Lost Mines of Phandelver" is my best option for introducing a new group to D&D; I've run it before and I hated running "Horde of the Dragon Queen". Is there a better introductory adventure I could use instead? I have access to all of the first season of the Adventurer's League scenarios too. - I'll be making a pregen of each class for everyone to choose from. Things I'll change: - Characters start at level 3. This should fix the "killed by a Goblin" issue at level 1 and actually give characters some mechanical identity. - I'll be using gradenko's fixed monster table and his "Monster on a business card" formulas when necessary. - Increasing the difficulty of whatever adventure I run to be fit for level 3 characters from the get-go. - Milestone leveling instead of counting experience points. - Maximum HP at level 1, average HP each level afterwards. - Not rolling for healing during short rests, just giving the maximum possible. (I really want to use Healing Surges, but think that's too far of a digression.) Things I'm unsure of: - Giving all characters a Feat at Level 1, and another when their Proficiency Bonus increases, as suggested by this thread. - Using the UA Ranger instead of the PHB Ranger. I'm pretty sure this is necessary. - Anything that I've missed that "fixes" 5e to be a better experience for everyone involved. Any help would be awesome, I really appreciate the discussions that happen in here so when I'm forced to play or run 5e by my friends I can make it tolerable.
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Oct 2, 2018 02:15
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Red Hood posted:One of my buddies who's a regular in my RPG's asked me to run a game for 4 of his friends from work who are interested in learning about tabletop RPG's, and D&D specifically. They have no experience with traditional gaming at all, besides the Milton Bradley kind, and maybe Cards Against Humanity. I'm happy to introduce people to roleplaying, so I accepted, but need a little help from you guys. Horde of the Dragon Queen is bad. I would highly recommend that assuming your party finishes LMoP at level 5, you give them an opportunity to decide how they want to proceed. You can introduce ideas like "there are reports of the Giants up north acting up" (Storm King's Thunder) or "some villagers went missing recently, leaving nothing but blood and ash in their stead" )Curse of Strahd), or "Some clerics are going crazy because their resurrection spells aren't working any longer, and no one can commune with the dead" (Tomb of Annihilation), etc. You can also go off the printed path if they decide that they want to work towards something else. quote:Things I'll change: All but the last one are fine. Healing up entirely every rest period really mitigates risk for the players. It may work for some people, but if you want them to have to work and feel a little pressed for resources from time to time, don't use that system. Make it clear that retreat is always an option and sometimes going headlong into battle when you're not at 100% isn't the best idea. quote:Things I'm unsure of: The feat thing is your choice. If your players are min/maxers, you can work yourself into a hole where they'll lock down encounters and just destroy stuff with PAM/GWM/Sentinel Deep Stalker tanks and CBM/WC warlocks and clerics and such. Adjusting encounter difficulty up should be something you look into if you go that route. The PHB ranger is okay, especially with the Gloom Stalker and Horizon Walker archetypes from Xanathar's guide. Use UA ranger if they want to go BM, but otherwise, it's not a significant difference. https://songoftheblade.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/improved-monster-stats-table-for-dd-5th-edition/
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Oct 2, 2018 02:36
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Just to toss this out there, do they want to play D&D, or do they want to play 5th Edition D&D? If they're not looking for 5th edition specifically, that's at least some flex room.
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Oct 2, 2018 02:39
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Not gonna comment on the published adventures or AL stuff because I mainly play home-made settings and adventures. Red Hood posted:- I'll be making a pregen of each class for everyone to choose from. Make pregens if you need to, but keep them customisable and listen to the players so you can suggest things and make changes that will be closer to what they want. (eg: Do they want to be a wizard or are they wanting the shapeshifting thing from legend and/or disney's sword in the stone?) Red Hood posted:- Characters start at level 3. This should fix the "killed by a Goblin" issue at level 1 and actually give characters some mechanical identity. All good. "Max hp at level 1" isn't even a change these days. Also, you probably know but it messes some people up: "Average" hp should be (for example) 5 on 1d8 like it says in the book, not 4. A common suggestion for starting at level 1 is +10hp or even +20. We've done +10 starting at level 3 and it didn't make things easy by any stretch. Red Hood posted:- Not rolling for healing during short rests, just giving the maximum possible. (I really want to use Healing Surges, but think that's too far of a digression.) If you mean "max of hit dice spent" then yeah, ok. If you mean "heal to max hp", that's far too much free healing to keep the rest/resource structure anywhere near where it's supposed to be. (e Red Hood posted:Things I'm unsure of: Yep, and yep. Red Hood posted:- Anything that I've missed that "fixes" 5e to be a better experience for everyone involved. Something my groups do, that I would always do too, is to just make the rest/replenish thing happen. Won't suit everyone, suits us great. Every 2 fights, recover your poo poo as if you had a short rest. Every 6-8 fights, recover your poo poo as if you had a long rest. Adjust the narrative to fit that, or ignore the narrative and just have the refreshes happen. I'll see if I can find my effortpost about it. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 02:46
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koreban posted:Horde of the Dragon Queen is bad. I would highly recommend that assuming your party finishes LMoP at level 5, you give them an opportunity to decide how they want to proceed. You can introduce ideas like "there are reports of the Giants up north acting up" (Storm King's Thunder) or "some villagers went missing recently, leaving nothing but blood and ash in their stead" )Curse of Strahd), or "Some clerics are going crazy because their resurrection spells aren't working any longer, and no one can commune with the dead" (Tomb of Annihilation), etc. You can also go off the printed path if they decide that they want to work towards something else. Yeah, I really hated HotDQ, especially after I realized that it was a giant circle and the caravan section is filler/unnecessary. I really appreciate the ideas of moving into another adventure with those segues. RE: Healing up - I didn't mean giving everyone a full heal, just that when they spend a Hit Die, they get the maximum value of that Hit Die instead of rolling it. RE: PHB Ranger - I'll just step around Beast Master entirely. If someone is dying to have a combat pet, we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it. \ Gharbad the Weak posted:Just to toss this out there, do they want to play D&D, or do they want to play 5th Edition D&D? If they're not looking for 5th edition specifically, that's at least some flex room. My buddy already let the cat out of the bag and told them the most current edition is 5e, so we're stuck with it. In a way I'm okay with it since balancing 3.0/3.5 is a chore to me and the learning curve for 4e is pretty high imo. I've accepted my fate. EDIT: AlphaDog posted:Not gonna comment on the published adventures or AL stuff because I mainly play home-made settings and adventures. Thanks for all this. I did mean "max of Hit Dice spent". I really like the idea of just having the short and long rests "happen"; I'll keep an eye out for that effortpost since this was something I had forgotten about and was dreading on how to handle it. Red Hood fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 02:50
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I can understand the hesitance to just prank the campaign antagonist to death. Though at this point Strahd is barely even a vampire when you get down to it? He could walk out into the sun and go "It's cool, I'm loving STRAHD." Because he'll be back next Tuesday at the latest, if it even hurts him at all depending on your GM. ... Now I'm imagining a campaign based on Strahd just popping up CONSTANTLY, as a running joke, that a deliberately over leveled party considers an annoyance as they work towards leaving, or any other goals.
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Oct 2, 2018 03:20
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Red Hood posted:I really like the idea of just having the short and long rests "happen"; I'll keep an eye out for that effortpost since this was something I had forgotten about and was dreading on how to handle it. Can't find exactly what I was thinking of, but the gist is that you decouple "rest" from "refresh". "Refresh" becomes a purely mechanical thing that gives you back spells, abilities, and hit points, and then you fit it into the narrative (or not) as suits you. Short rest = "small refresh", Long Rest = "big refresh". You get a small refresh every 2 fights. You get a big refresh every 6-8 fights. Each big refresh marks the end of an It's best used as a heavily abstracted pacing mechanic, which means plenty of people will straight up hate it for not always "working the same" - because each adventure section always has 6-8 fights, you always get a small refresh every 2 fights and a big one at the end, but narratively the section could be a 6 month sea voyage, 5 weeks jungle trek, a week's caravan guard duty, 5 minutes room-to-room fighting in the dungeon, or whatever else. The other way to do it of course is to bend the narrative to meet the mechanic, so you're building encounter chains 6-8 fights long with spaces for a 5-30 minute breather every 2 fights and space for "overnight" at the end. One of my DMs does it like this, and it's fine. Players won't even notice that there's "always" 6, 7, or 8 fights per day, especially if, for example, you occasionally chain (eg) fights 3 and 4 into one long fight with 2 parts.
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Oct 2, 2018 03:23
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See, that sounds like it's basing off of the recommended encounters a day thing from the DMG. But I never, ever read that as meaning 6-8 fights but as a mixture of combat encounters and social encounters.
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Oct 2, 2018 05:35
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Red Hood posted:My buddy already let the cat out of the bag and told them the most current edition is 5e, so we're stuck with it. In a way I'm okay with it since balancing 3.0/3.5 is a chore to me and the learning curve for 4e is pretty high imo. I've accepted my fate. Do you know why they want to play D&D specifically? I get it's probably just the cultural cachet the game has, but who knows, maybe you can talk them into playing something else.
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Oct 2, 2018 05:36
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Red Hood posted:- Not rolling for healing during short rests, just giving the maximum possible. (I really want to use Healing Surges, but think that's too far of a digression.) My standard recommendation is to convert Healing Hit Dice into Reserve Points. You have Reserve Points equal to your Maximum Hit Points. Whenever you take a Short Rest, you can convert your Reserve Points into Hit Points at a 1-to-1 ratio. Whenever you take a Long Rest, you regain Reserve Points equal to half your maximum. This both removes the unpredictability of the mechanic, while also removing the problem of trying to "fit" discrete amounts of healing into uneven deficits. Arthil posted:See, that sounds like it's basing off of the recommended encounters a day thing from the DMG. But I never, ever read that as meaning 6-8 fights but as a mixture of combat encounters and social encounters. You're technically correct that an "encounter" does not need to be combat, per se, but a "social encounter" also needs to have stakes that involve the daily resources of a party (specifically, Hit Points). If it does not, then it doesn't matter.
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Oct 2, 2018 05:56
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Arthil posted:See, that sounds like it's basing off of the recommended encounters a day thing from the DMG. But I never, ever read that as meaning 6-8 fights but as a mixture of combat encounters and social encounters. As long as it uses up limited resources (hp, spells, etc), it counts. But look on page 84 of the DMG - "The adventuring day". The context is that it's just been talking, for pages, about "encounters" in terms of monsters overcome and xp gained from that, and "might lose a few hit points" etc, and then it goes straight into 6-to-8 medium-to-hard encounters as a "day" and talking about using "how much XP can they earn" as a guideline for making sure your combat encounter building is right. I don't know how you read that as anything other than "combat encounters, 6-8 per day". Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 06:07
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Social encounters don't really use resources. You might spend cash and maybe a spell or two, but it's really not draining you on the level of a fight.
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Oct 2, 2018 06:45
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Section Z posted:I can understand the hesitance to just prank the campaign antagonist to death. That's just not something Strahd would do. One of his stated goals and the reason he is luring outsiders into Barovia is that he wants to find someone to succeed him as Lord of Barovia. Thinking he may have found a loop hole in his imprisonment. Namely that as the Lord of the Land he is bound there, but he can let others come and go, so if someone else was lord of the land he could likely leave. However Strahd still feels a sense of responsibly towards his domain, and won't just give it over to some random person, So he tests and observes newcomers he lures to his land to see if they could succeed him. ( Liking people most like himself as he views the traits he has as good in a ruler.) However in the end Strahd's arrogance no matter what happens, leads him to think that none of the party is worthy of his throne so he decides to do away with them. (Which is whenever the DM decides to swap from Strahd is toying with the party, to Strahd is going to murder the party.) So Strahd despite having a feasible plan, won't enact it cause no matter what he will never consider another person worthy of succeeding him. He just does not realize this. Most of Strahd's problems are a result of things like this. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 06:54
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Wrestlepig posted:Social encounters don't really use resources. You might spend cash and maybe a spell or two, but it's really not draining you on the level of a fight. I mean, it could, it just requires a reframing of mechanics in a way that's mostly up to the DM to conjure up themselves, the simplest being "if you fail, you take xd6 damage", justified however narratively
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Oct 2, 2018 07:16
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Wrestlepig posted:Social encounters don't really use resources. You might spend cash and maybe a spell or two, but it's really not draining you on the level of a fight. Does anyone actually use renown points out of p22 DMG? I'm asking as I've resorted to those for the mechanic side of a maneuver affecting reputation, but really I've used renown points just to illustrate how the DM should think about it, rather than thinking it will literally be calculated in most games.
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Oct 2, 2018 07:30
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Wrestlepig posted:Social encounters don't really use resources. You might spend cash and maybe a spell or two, but it's really not draining you on the level of a fight. This is only true if you think of social encounters as conversations wherein players roll for persuasion or intimidation. Instead think of social encounters where you might have to use calm emotions, suggestion, minor illusion, or have the rogue run off to purloin a macguffin while your bard keeps a guy distracted. Diplomatic encounter have a place, but your default scenarios shouldn’t be “fight to the death” or “have the face character roll high persuasion”. Make the people they’re interacting with have just as finely a tuned sense of self preservation *AND* not like your party. Like, at all. So you have to overcome their suspicions to even interact with you beyond telling you to get out. And even if everything goes well, they’re not going to be friends or give up information on one of their own.
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Oct 2, 2018 07:35
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koreban posted:This is only true if you think of social encounters as conversations wherein players roll for persuasion or intimidation. So, like Wrestlepig said. Doesn't really use resources, maybe just a spell or two at most but not resource draining on the level of a fight. I'm not sure what you are arguing against here.
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Oct 2, 2018 07:36
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koreban posted:This is only true if you think of social encounters as conversations wherein players roll for persuasion or intimidation. Do you think that a battle and a social situation use up similar amounts of the same resources?
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Oct 2, 2018 08:07
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Make the murderhobos lose 1hp per civil word spoken as they eat themselves alive, from the inside out, suppressing their murderhobo ways.
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Oct 2, 2018 08:27
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koreban posted:This is only true if you think of social encounters as conversations wherein players roll for persuasion or intimidation. I'm talking about resource consumption rather than Time Spent. It's pretty rare to have a social scene use up more than a couple of spells and maybe cash, since there's no resources tied to Bluff mechanically and the social spells can trivialize them, especially if you don't care about their reaction E: there's also HP for traps and poo poo although those rarely make a big impact in your modern D&D Wrestlepig fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 08:39
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kingcom posted:So, like Wrestlepig said. Doesn't really use resources, maybe just a spell or two at most but not resource draining on the level of a fight. I'm not sure what you are arguing against here. I’m not arguing against anything. I’m arguing for more dynamic social encounters that require time, coordination, and resources beyond rolling for persuasion. Strictly speaking, it shouldn’t be as resource intensive as a fight, but it doesn’t have to be resource neutral either.
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Oct 2, 2018 09:01
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Calm Emotions. Everyone knows it as the spell that keeps you from being frightened. But there’s another paragraph. You can cast it on someone to cause them to be indifferent to creatures it would normally take hostile action against. You can’t take hostile actions against his buddies, and generally he should know when the spell fades that it went down, but he may not, explicitly stated in the text of the spell. Maybe your social encounter is to take a key from the desk of a jailer. The jailer wasn’t going to give up the key or take a bribe, regardless of how hard they rolled on persuasion. Use Calm Emotions to make him not care, swipe the key, and get out before it breaks so you can get away. It used a second level spell slot, which is fairly valuable through level 6 or 7. Maybe your players dropped a minor illusion on the way out to distract the jailer or guards. The rogue was hiding so when the jailer took off after the illusionary thief, the rogue could break the prisoner out. Small resource cost, some risk for future trouble if they’re recognized, but a more fun way to do the event than the usual persuade or quest for a reward tropes.
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Oct 2, 2018 09:10
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kingcom posted:Uhh, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but you know hes talking about D&D 4e right?  my page snipe was about 4e though.koreban posted:Do you have an example in mind? Genuinely interested to see how it's handled in other systems. It's a neat system that ties into a whole bunch of game effects, including some stuff I haven't covered here. It's well integrated and addresses multiple gameplay issues. The P2E thing by comparison as described here is a weird little isolated subsystem that addresses a very narrow problem. In my opinion the bookkeeping to benefit ratio is not so good. The above system couldn't be ported directly into Pathfinder due to a number of system differences (tiered success dice pool vs binary roll over being the biggest hurdle), but I'd expect something of similar quality and system integration in a major studio publication. koreban posted:No, it was a continuation of the thought about your statement about a counter with little to no impact on the game other than to draw the combat out. Splicer fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Oct 2, 2018 |
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Oct 2, 2018 09:21
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AlphaDog posted:at that point we're not playing a game, I'm being allowed to partially narrate myself through someone else's story. Welcome to D&D
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Oct 2, 2018 12:24
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Hey! I see we had another derail so I wanted to post something. A while ago, Covok put this rule about Z chat in the OP: Covok posted:And I'm following this up with a new thread rule: No More Arguing Or Discussing These Events In This Thread. Take It To The Industry Thread Instead, Where Such Arguments Are Expected. I haven't really been enforcing it because I felt like it was something I should trust the thread to do on its own, so I've just been probating the most hostile posts and leaving it at that. But we're still having the same derail with the same posters over and over lately, and bunch of posts even acknowledge that it's a derail so I know you know better. So, I queued up a bunch of probations. In the future please just take the topic to the industry thread, minus the really hostile parts. If it happens again anyway I'm just gonna start probating for it on principle. Besides that, here are some other things I wanted to mention. I'm not naming names because this is useful to know for everyone and also who cares:
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Oct 2, 2018 12:58
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