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Turns out, he wasn't actually exploiting rules, he was just one of many people to notice that the game is actually calvinball.
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Sep 9, 2018 10:03
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| # ? May 15, 2024 21:02 |
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Erfworld: World War Calvinball
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Sep 9, 2018 12:24
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I'd say a big part of the problem is that all the rules and limitations from the beginning don't matter anymore. Remember when it was actually important whose turn it was because units only had move on their turn? It used to be "rare" for casters to be in the field leading a stack of units, but now we see that far more often than warlords doing it. Just this turn, Vinnie conquered three cities with nothing more than a stack of bats. Gobwin Knob and Charlie both have infinite juice (Shirley may have shut Charlie's access to it down, but she sure doesn't seem to be running out of juice). Every side in play now has a tower that can detect when units are disloyal, give units orders at range and even remote-control mindless and mentally incapacitated units, see what any of the side's units can see, and more. Instakill weapons are being handed out like candy.
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Sep 9, 2018 13:15
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Ditocoaf posted:the game is actually calvinball. This sums up my annoyance with what the comic has become amazingly well and my problems with settings that overuse worldbreaking asspull magic in general. I was pleased at having the logic of the setting laid out and so many rules established in the beginning but they've as good as all been thrown out now. Anyone circumventing or breaking one could've once been used for incredible dramatic effect and now it's just happening every other strip. Parson no longer matters as a protagonist. Nobody else really does either with the way the POVs keep skipping around, it's not about giving us a glimpse of other views so much as putting equal weight on all of them at the expense of plot progress or any kind of focus.
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Sep 9, 2018 15:31
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The current turn started on page 186 or 187. We're coming up on 150 days on the same turn. I have no idea whose turn it actually is right now - the only things that actually cared about that were Faq and Vinnie's respective city conquests, since no one else has crossed a hex boundary or city zone boundary all turn. Book 2 spent 188 pages on the same turn, but that was a major battle rather than an endless back-and-forth of magic diplomacy.
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Sep 9, 2018 16:52
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Zeno's Paradox in webcomic form. The closer it gets to the climactic finale it's been building to, the slower it goes.Zoe posted:This sums up my annoyance with what the comic has become amazingly well and my problems with settings that overuse worldbreaking asspull magic in general. I was pleased at having the logic of the setting laid out and so many rules established in the beginning but they've as good as all been thrown out now. Anyone circumventing or breaking one could've once been used for incredible dramatic effect and now it's just happening every other strip. Doesn't help that the concepts of magic aren't explained very well, if at all for some types and even the few types we've encountered still have lots of secrets that can be asspulled from.
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Sep 21, 2018 10:26
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'Engineering' strikes me as one of Parson's words that may not be native to Erfworld but the natives have an intuitive understanding of what it means. And perhaps a conceptual scope they hadn't considered. This might be the first time Sizemore has had anyone articulate why he has so much trouble with other schools of magic to him, and the first step in solving the problem.
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Sep 21, 2018 10:47
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At least it's nice to see Sizemore not completely miserable for the first time since, like, the epilogue of Book 1.
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Sep 21, 2018 17:57
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Hey, remember how Ben totally pulled a fast one on the Towers? Ben totally pulled a fast one on the towers.
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Sep 22, 2018 15:48
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I mean, Huehue was basically lowkey asking for him to do exactly that.
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Sep 23, 2018 09:31
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XkyRauh posted:Hey, remember how Ben totally pulled a fast one on the Towers? Ben totally pulled a fast one on the towers. Meanwhile even literal Deus Ex Machina can't stop Charlie from cheating. This is getting tiresome.
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Sep 23, 2018 09:42
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Yay! Now we get to start the contract negotiation from the beginning again!
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Sep 24, 2018 11:18
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nimby posted:Meanwhile even literal Deus Ex Machina can't stop Charlie from cheating. This is getting tiresome. I don't think Charlie actually had anything to do with this outcome — Shirley just promised something that turned out to be beyond her power to grant.
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Sep 24, 2018 11:49
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't think Charlie actually had anything to do with this outcome — Shirley just promised something that turned out to be beyond her power to grant. Shirley strikes me as the family member who makes promises of other family members. "Oh yeah, my Bobby can take a look at your computer no problem! He got an IT degree y'know? It's no problem at all hed be thrilled to help!"
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Sep 24, 2018 13:30
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't think Charlie actually had anything to do with this outcome — Shirley just promised something that turned out to be beyond her power to grant. There's two problems with that. First, contract magic has previously been presented as automagical and able to override the normal rules precisely to avoid situations like this where one side makes a promise and then just doesn't keep it. Contract magic can literally prevent someone from talking about something and cause them physical pain from even thinking about that thing, but it can't undo a spell and can't force Charlie to undo a spell? Second of all, the entire reason TV's current gambit is even possible in the first place was that the towers are literally incapable of making promises if they know their side doesn't intend to keep them. The reason Ben had to do that contract-chaining stunt to get their treasury over to GK, instead of just sending a pile of gems by hat, is that it would have been literally impossible for Huehue to sign the contract if TV didn't have the money in their treasury at the instant the contract was signed. The good guys had to go through all that clever scheming to evade the whole "you can't promise something you can't actually do" rule, which the last five pages have reinforced and repeated again and again, and then Charlie's side just gets a freebie because Arkendish? It doesn't feel fair. This isn't even some clever Charlie scheme, he just stumbled into it. So much for the unstoppable power of contracts.
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Sep 24, 2018 17:17
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I don't think they get a freebie because Arkendish, they get a freebie because Shirley failed to understand what's going on inside Bill and promised something she thought she could do, but actually can't with Bill broken. Basically, she's naturally as dumb as Benjamin had to jump his side through six hoops to be, and gets a freebie from that.
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Sep 24, 2018 17:26
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It isn't just Bill - Shirley also mentioned the fact that the collar was made by an Arkendish link as a factor. But if you can't undo a spell via contract unless the original caster is there to do it in person according to the regular magic rules, but you can promise it via contract even though you can't actually do it, then that's a pretty big loophole. Especially when contracts override the normal rules in so many other cases, and in fact Huehue suggests in the most recent update that contract magic outright alters reality for those affected. In hindsight, it seems like the previous page's discussion of the logistics of the contract (moving units out of Faq garrisons, for example) was meant to prime readers for this by pointing out a bunch of other poo poo that isn't automatically handled by the contract. But I still think it doesn't land well. If anything else, the fact that both sides have bent and abused the rules so much that they can't even get basic fundamental mechanics like contracts to work the way they want to anymore isn't a good sign for the smooth forward movement of the story.
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Sep 24, 2018 20:20
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You could argue that the rules are working fine, it's just that you're dealing with something explicitly designed to manipulate the foundations the rules are based on (Arkentools). I think the bigger problem is that we're seeing the Arkendish doing something it probably shouldn't be able to do - it's ostensibly built around being able to read Strings and broadcast to them, allowing for Thinkagrams and remote caster linkups, but there's no indication that the Arkendish itself is capable of fundamentally altering Strings (which appears to be purview of the Arkenpliers). The cursed pendant should be no different than one created by a traditional linked caster arrangement, simply done with one caster in a different hex thanks to the Arkendish. Really what this is highlighting is that we still have no loving clue what the Arkenhammer is supposed to be capable of doing and given what we've seen of the Arkenpliers and Arkendish it should be equally game-defining, but it's been tacitly ignored the whole while.
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Sep 25, 2018 03:14
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isndl posted:Really what this is highlighting is that we still have no loving clue what the Arkenhammer is supposed to be capable of doing and given what we've seen of the Arkenpliers and Arkendish it should be equally game-defining, but it's been tacitly ignored the whole while. Given the Arkenpliers are uber Croakmancy and the Arkendish is uber Thinkamancy, my guess for the hammer (given the mancers we've seen who could wind up with it) would be some form of uber Dirtamancy, but the wonky wrench seems to fill that niche.
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Sep 25, 2018 03:26
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Bruceski posted:Given the Arkenpliers are uber Croakmancy and the Arkendish is uber Thinkamancy, my guess for the hammer (given the mancers we've seen who could wind up with it) would be some form of uber Dirtamancy, but the wonky wrench seems to fill that niche. Separating the Arktentools by caster discipline seems short-sighted, particularly when there's been a few hints that different caster classes could use them differently. The Arkenpliers can cut or mend Strings, the Arkendish can read or vibrate Strings, and the Arkhammer does... something. Possibly reshape Strings, given the pigeon <-> walnut transformations we've seen and ability to tame Dwagons (hitting their Loyalty String?). Perhaps Shockamancy is a brute force attack on a unit's Strings? The Arkenshoes would be some kind of String insulation so you don't wear it down between hexes, maybe.
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Sep 25, 2018 03:54
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Erfworld is a experiment in translating Zeno's paradox into narrative form. Edit: wait someone made this joke already earlier on the page. help
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Sep 25, 2018 17:53
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Ditocoaf posted:Erfworld is a experiment in translating Zeno's paradox into narrative form. Don't sorry, it felt like an eternity ago
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Sep 26, 2018 06:10
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New one is up - https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/342 I figured this was where the story was going, but I assumed Caeser would make Skye his heir before doing it so that the kingdom wouldn't fall. Charlie's only trump card in the situation was the collar and if Caeser is out of the way then Charlsecomm has no leverage
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Oct 3, 2018 05:26
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I really don't get the next step here? I feel like literally everyone's situation keeps crumbling into a worse and worse position.
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Oct 3, 2018 05:37
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Caesar's thoughts echo the reader's, in that it's increasingly clear to both that none of the events in that story matter and that quitting it is the best course of action.
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Oct 3, 2018 10:51
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Cat Mattress posted:Caesar's thoughts echo the reader's, in that it's increasingly clear to both that none of the events in that story matter and that quitting it is the best course of action. But for some reason we can't turn away.we must be Fated to finish this comic. The hard way 
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Oct 3, 2018 11:39
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I think it's a fakeout. The text doesn't say that Caesar actually touched the portal yet, leaving the possibility of Huehue interfering. And the bottom image often depicts something that could happen, but doesn't. If Caesar had just successfully suicided, Skyy and Benjamin would both be frozen neutral and could be rescued somehow, but Vinny would have just disbanded, and I don't think that's in the cards for him right now.
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Oct 3, 2018 12:37
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Frozen neutral, then immediately captured by gobwin knob as they captured the barbarian city, and they'd have no real reason to not turn at that point.
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Oct 3, 2018 12:38
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reignonyourparade posted:Frozen neutral, then immediately captured by gobwin knob as they captured the barbarian city, and they'd have no real reason to not turn at that point. Not with Bill there.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:08
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Did anybody in the Magic Kingdom do anything that involved kipi'ing the Transylvito portal yet? If so, he's just going to end up in the MK.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:09
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Rand Brittain posted:Did anybody in the Magic Kingdom do anything that involved kipi'ing the Transylvito portal yet? If so, he's just going to end up in the MK. If that happens, I'd laugh. Also apparently the reason he's gone all suicidal is the implication or statement that Bunny and Don got ate by the bats to dispose of them? Unless the idea Parson had was to have the bats eat the corpses, and then bring them over to Gobwin Knob, and see if they can't decrypt from that.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:30
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He was already suicidal at that point tho.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:37
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Rand Brittain posted:Did anybody in the Magic Kingdom do anything that involved kipi'ing the Transylvito portal yet? If so, he's just going to end up in the MK. We have absolutely no idea whatsoever. We haven't seen it happen, but that doesn't mean much - most of what Big Think did with the wrench was offscreen. We wouldn't expect them to have done it, since they didn't do it for GK...but I guess we'll see
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Oct 3, 2018 17:54
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Uh, dang, I didn't catch that. Also, this is us seeing the power of self-Croakamancy in action. It's... honestly not the least obscene thing I've ever seen in Erfworld, that suicides actually have a Don't Stop Me field.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:57
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Could probably have cut Caesar's half of the update entirely. At the very least cut 80% and intersperse the rest between the paragraphs of Jack's.
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Oct 4, 2018 14:45
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super sweet best pal posted:Could probably have cut Caesar's half of the update entirely. At the very least cut 80% and intersperse the rest between the paragraphs of Jack's. I seriously sometimes wonder how Baldr can write so much and leave me loving confused as to what's happening.
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Oct 4, 2018 16:11
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Onmi posted:I seriously sometimes wonder how Baldr can write so much and leave me loving confused as to what's happening. Might have been on purpose this time - he certainly went out of his way to make a few things as vague as possible. I get the impression he didn't want to write about them, maybe he feels that corpse desecration isn't PG enough or whatever, but he didn't feel like he could cut the elements completely so he decided to drop the barest few hints and make the readers figure it out.
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Oct 4, 2018 18:58
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I didn't catch it, and I really don't feel like rereading it, so I'll just believe you guys that it was there.
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Oct 4, 2018 19:49
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Cat Mattress posted:I didn't catch it, and I really don't feel like rereading it, so I'll just believe you guys that it was there. It was just a couple internal lines about how Caesar knew where the bats went, and what the bats were doing. It makes a lot of sense that you guys say they were disposing of the corpses, I assumed they were off doing some weird thing to help with the next unpredictable mechanics cheat.
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Oct 5, 2018 16:56
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Phenotype posted:It was just a couple internal lines about how Caesar knew where the bats went, and what the bats were doing. It makes a lot of sense that you guys say they were disposing of the corpses, I assumed they were off doing some weird thing to help with the next unpredictable mechanics cheat. Just re read it. Makes mention of foraging. That's actually a callback to epilogue book 1! The bats forage and eat a wild animal. That's cool, it had been a long while that there was a sort of chekhovs gun setup in erfworld. (In this case I doubt the original book 1 epilogue meant it that way, but still nice to see.)
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Oct 5, 2018 21:37
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